The real scoop on the players....

 Kirchner is clueless, put in Lambie who was excellent in the RWC and has a rugby brain.

Shift Hougaard onto the wing in place of Mvovo...who will be even worse against better wings.

Keep the centres, keep Morne until Goosen makes his case. Put Pienaar in at scrummie.

Keep the front row, but work on their heads. Jannie has to stop leaking penalties and the Beast needs to get engaged.

Keep the locks they should be a dominant pair, one bad game by Bekker doesn't change that. Get them some help though....why not Victor as forward coach, the position he effectively held under Pd V

The tough one is the back row. But we need a wide ranging cover defender.....bring back Big Joe. We need a fetcher....Brussouw or Minnie are the best bets. And in the absence of Schalk,continue with Alberts. The Coetzee success story hit a major road bump on Saturday.

Its not perfect, but it's the best we got!!!!

Agree with you re the backs Moz although the Hougaard saga is not done yet. Our props are not dynamic enough for my liking and beast has been a serial loafer for years without being noticed apart from the searching gaze of Beeno of course! I do not think Cillers will cut it either but we shall see.

We shall have to see who is fit and ready for battle.  The Kolisi fans will be disappointed he is out with a broken thumb.  snapster will think it a total disaster!

not the props fault if the pumas who are known for being the best scrummers in the world are at there best.

but if one the game plan only uses props and big ball carriers to try and bash there way to the game line then the way you put it then this must be a disaster hmmmmm

if you knew 10 cents worth of rugby you would know that for a prop it takes time to learn to scrum with a new hooker like straus due to his size and length. the front 3 work as a combination so its normal if the front 3 are not so dominate as what they are meant to be. bekker was just was woefull in the tight exchanges. could see that his back was not quite 100% that all effects the cohesion so just laying blame to the props for the scrumms is rather stupid but you dont know any better. as a unit they were bad. but that is you forwards coachs job or as you put it in one post van graan aka the attacking coaches fault hahahahahah

the only forward that stood his ground was alberts and etzebeth. the rest was caught out at the breakdown and by the tempo of the game that was a massive massive worry for me. the much smaller lighter pumas ran the boks of there feet. the boks.

i have been calling for pienaar to start for weeks but against the like fo the aussies i will try hougaard again. the quicker game suites hougaard more but then at least the beeno fetchers (big carriers) need to at least do some work on the deck and ensure we have the ball first.

we we think the pumas game was bad if we have the same tactics against the aussie i promise you things will get ugly very very soon

Muncher if you know anything about hookers you would realsie that Liebenberg is a better scrummager than Strauss and that Bekker and Etzebeth would have been more comfortably at lineout time with him throwing the ball in. Meyer erred in notselecting Liebenberg for this match.

But more importantly I did not citicise their scrumming actually. What I critised wa stheir failure to drive the ball up a vital abilty a top class prop needs. I note Planer Rugby goav eboth beast and Jannie a 4. To me their scruming was okay but the rest of their work definitely not more than a 4.

Muncher please read my posts more carefully as it will prevent your missing the point repeatedly! Hahahahahahhahaha I will let you know when you reach, if ever, the ten cents worth knowledge about rugby.

Bwahahahahahahahaha

they pumas forwards are always strong. its forms part of there rugby culture and heritage. its well known. so i never expected us to dominate them but you sure did talk up the "power pack myth"

they lost the battle at the breakdown so in that respect everyone in the pack should be very lucky to be even on the scoresheet. but you think all our forwards can just pitch up and run over everyone but all the top sides in the worlds forwards and match each other on any other day due to training and the relevant gym work.

i do read your keyboard diarea beeno but for every paragraph one can only use about a few words that is actually worth any form of mention.

in terms of your self proclaimed knowledge your better off sticking to your day job mate. your blantant one eyed uninformed points and plagiarist remarks really shows off well your so called rugby knowledge (please note my sarcasm).

after this weekend your idea of how rugby is meant to be played got a good old "shiner"

 Our props aren't the issue. Our loosies are the biggest issue. Hooper the Pocock wannabee is way better at the breakdown  than anything we have fielded.

Mozart

The loosies on Saturay was terrible - but all the fire is directed to the better one of the three - Coetzee.   The Argntinians also targetted him more than anyody else.   Alberts is a better no 7 or lock than a no 8 and Potgieter was utterly useless.

However, will Brussow be any better?   I think not - he is likely to get penalized - remember the 5 kickable penalties he gave away in the last 3 Super 15 games.   He has played a bit better in the said games - but not so much better that he off-setted the lost points.  

I would play Vermeulen at 8 and move Alberts to 7   It is not the final solution - but a damn sight better than any other alternative.

As much as I would play Lambie ahead of Kirchner, Zane has actually been good in the tests he has played this year.

Yeah lets keep the ineffective Jean and Morne as they add so much clout to our attacking cause - brilliant.

Lets shift Hougaard to wing away from the action - that after a test where he proved just how good his service was at 9 - his service was far better than Pienaar's. One certainty regarding this Bok side is that Hougaard has to stay at 9

Potgieter has to go he is not a test standard player purely because he is all effort no brains. Imagine bringing the equally stupid Minnie on board or going back to a Joe who has been past it for seasons now - what a stupid and backward call that would be.

The problem with this Bok side is that they have too many hasbeens or neverbeens in the side like Habana, Jean, Morne and Potgieter.........we dont need to compound this issue by bringing more hasbeens like Schalk and Joe into the equation - how shortsighted would that be - bloody hell. Coetzee has had one quiet game and now all of a sudden we have a road bump - what bullshit. Coetzee has dominated all those Kiwi and Oz players in their test side at S15 level so no reason in the world he cant continue - one would swear he had been poor on Sat

Saffex

I would add another name to your list of has beens and that is Francois Steyn.   The way he played in the recent four tests indicated a has been - sad to see and say.   The press and commentators have been very unhappy with Hougaard's passing game - so you must really be alone in your assessment in this case.. I beg to differ from you here - and so is the case with most people/ 

I agree changes are needed - but the people on this Board is very fickle - one week before Coetzeee is the on of the best loosis in the world - the next week he is the pits.

However we are farting against thunder - Meyer has already said the flops will not be left out from the squad and the present charade is therefore to continue/

What bullshit Mike, catch a wake up. Frans is 25, was our best back against England along with JP and was one of our best backs against Argentina with a 6/10 rating. The lad is a class act playing in a Bok side that is at best average. No 12 will ever thrive outside the useless Morne - we need a 10 with zip and 13 with clout before the Bok backs will shine.

Frans is one of the first names on my Bok teamsheet, along with Hougaard at 9 and JP when fit

 We have been vulnerable against the Poms and the Bargies without a covering 8 and a fetcher. And now we are supposed to play NZ without these skills?

The fact is if you don't challenge for ball on the ground.....you will get carved up.

The only option we have as a fetcher right now is Daniel, given Brussouw and Kolisi are injured. At 8 our options are Vermeulen or moving Coetzee to 8

Saffex

I do not want to get into a debate with you again about Francois Steyn - but to state categorically that I was so delghted with his selection against the POMS - that I may have expected too much from him.   I was vastly disappointed with what he actually produced.   Against the POMS he basically crash-balled without any line breaks and no successful off-loads.   Why was I not the only one that was not disappointed?   Matter of fact he was sluggish in everything he did and showed no ball sense at all.   I want to mention to instances in the first test only - where he really disappointed me,   He made one relieving kick from his 25 and the ball rolled on the ground - putting all the Springboks off-side.   He made two strategic kicks and both went over the dead ball line - resulting in scrums in the Springbok half. 

The Argentina tests was a repeat of that - so I got very disappointed with that as well.   It may be that he was not given any opportunities playing outsidre of Morne - but even that should not have resulted in him coasting.   I think that he needs a real wake-op call - if he continues to play like he does now - he should be out as he brings nothing constructive to the game.   He has the attributes - but there is really no spark in his game in the four tests he played in,   Maybe the public is disappointed because they expected more from him.  Jist one more thing - if he was any good at present - he would have an effective off-load in a tackle situation like Willians - in the four tests played he never off-loaded once in a tackle situation.

I know and share your geelings about Steyn and Hougaard - but think they need to play Hougaard on the wing.   He is a very bad scrummie and is still not satisfactory after playing 16 tests in that position.   He does not have the natural flare of a scrummie and his passing is indeed slow and ineffective.   He often runs three or four steps before he passes and the recipient dare not move - because the pass would get astray.   That is not a fast and effcient servie delivery to the backline.  

JP on the wing - I agree whole-heartedly with you.

Well Mike your take on his performance against the Poms is way off. He made more line breaks than any other back and was a real handful for the Poms, he imposed himself physically and gave Tuilangi a rugby lesson.

Everyone concluded he would be massively missed in that last test against the Poms and what happened.

I was massively impressed with Frans against the Poms, he was huge

Saff,

The difference between Tuialangi and the Pumas backline is that they try and run through you where the AB's and Wobblies will run around you and in Steyns current state he may find the last 20 minutes of the test when we really need his composure, skills and ability lacking because his fat arse would be on the gground catching its breath.

He will now face back lines that actually think unlike the overrated Tuialangi and Steyns fitness will be severly tested particuarly against the AB's. We will see in two weeks against the Wobblies how good he is. I said in another post the Robbie Deans said the only way to match and beat the AB's is too match their intensity, as their players are highly conditioned, fit and play with intensity down all channels.

I have real concerns with our backline in its currents state as there is no punch, power or inventiveness amongst this lot. We need Frans Stey,n but we need him in his best form, best condition, highly fit and ready to take some leadership along with JDV whom is so out of his depth in his role as an international captain.

There is nothing wrong with Frans's fitness at all - its not been questioned this year, so not sure where you are coming from with this.

The only AB threat at 12 is SBW, but he has gone. Oz have nothing of note at centre at all - its an Oz weakness.

Saff,

Like I said his fitness test will be tested shortly and if you think that SBW is the only threat he and the BOKs will face then mate you better get your angina tablets ready cause the Wobblies at the wosre are still better than our backline in its current state. Im am not even going to mention the carnage we will face on a covered dry ground in Dunedin.

The Wobblies said the pace of the game against the AB's was a level that they have not played at before. Who have we played, ENG the second best10 man nation and Argentina the 3rd best 10 man nation..........lol

 Burden is withour doubt the back-up hooker for Bismark at the next WC.

He is fast, aggressive and excellent allround.

After at least 10 games starting at centre, I can't recall one genuine break Fransie has made at centre. I recall him swatting Shane Williams from the fullback  position....nada at centre. Sure a couple of times falling down his huge weight squashed  a smaller chappie as he was tackled, but is that a break?

So far I'd say he adds a physical element, but no pace, no elusiveness, no vision at 12. There is zero sense of acceleration from the 12 position....a huge load is hard to move forward. 

Like Mike I have been a great Frans fan but I also can express disappointment at his showings thus far. Needless to say its all Morne's fault   - the sum of ou snapster's lack of rugby acumen!!

Frans needs to be whipped into shape. Meyer will be onto his case I am sure.

Please snapster  try and understand our problems go well beond your obssession with Morne!!  Read Hakwa's post and also mine on keeping the faith and their is just the vaguest chance you might be enlightened! Hahhahahahaha - you have to love ou snapster consistency!

beeno you have no acumen or rugby knowhow so i find your statement very funny indeed.

frans is a product of the game pattern that HM wants to play. funny that all the players that performed well in the super rugby suddenly with different roles dont play as they should ??? he is told to take the ball up and play a certain way. morne has just been below par for 2 season almost. major difference. frans is a bit to heavy but that can be sorted out quickly

i read your comments on hakwa's post and to be fair you need some proper informed info mate. your just rehasing yourself over and over again

Fran's urgently needs to lose 5 if not 10 kegs. This lad is a porker.

agreed moz he is way to heavy but then again Hm and co has not made any effort in trying to trimming him down. he looks and by what i hear he is being used only for first phase setup and creating the the 2nd and 3rd phase...

ala olivier and trevor halstead style of play. very one dimensional

If Frans can do no more than blindly follow orders then he is not the player I though he was. A player can try and step occassionaly, try to take the gap or get more busy without the coaches permission muncher. A player also should have enough self respect and pride to train hard and be in shape. No more blaming Meyer for everything please muncher. 

As I noted many moons ago - Frans looks overweight. I am sure Meyer will do what he can to get this donkey moving again.

well if the structures were in place the medical team that includes the diet experts and training experts would have monitored him and would have told him were he is meant to be. yes beeno there is meant to be people that look after there repective players. if the player stepps outside of what he is meant to be at in terms of the goals that is set but them then he needs to train harder.

for all that i know he was told to bulk up. neither you nor i will ever know. the system is meant to keep him in check

Why do we see 2 different styles of play for Frans?

Lambie...