CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Aug 2014, 10:19#2
You posted this garbage before and I already commented on that one. Fransie's only asset was the kicking of a few long distance penalties - which other proper flyhalfs would have kicked. He is one-dimensional - he is useless as a backline pirvot and that is a fact. His inaccurate kicking game was the source of more possession losses than anything else - and he does not know when to pass or when to kick balls. Same as Morne Steyn - but his defense defuiciencies - as supported by stats - showed him up badly in that Department of the game than even the limp Morne is.
For the rest - fo to the other thread you repeated the same garbage in.
The shocking use of Steyn by the Sharks at center or fl yhalf costed thenmm dearly in the end.
GTGonzo the Great
Club Pro560 posts
GTGonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
20 Aug 2014, 15:35#3
Mozart you make a logical argument there but I only agree where the sharks are concerned. lets rewind to 2008 and 2009 and Frans was stuffed around between 10 and 15. He also did a good job for the sharks when Pienaar got injured at 10 but at test level he never really made the impact in either position. he was hailed for his boot at 15 in 2009 but it never really came into the equation he was just a guy to take down bodies. at 10 in star studded Baabaas side he was actually worse than lamnie was last year. when he joined racing he said it was good to be back at 12 and he feels more comfortable there. no surprise that our 2011 WC campaign took off when he was at 12 and ended when he got injured. You want frans at 10 because he is better than lambie but he is also their best 12. the sharks season ended badly because only fransie can play 12 or 10. jake was juggling him around all season to mask the gaps and because of jordaans blowout against the highlanders he tried lambie. it was logical to do because carter was at 12!. but yeah 10 is not in fransies best interest. he has been the best 12 in sa since 2007. hanging onto intercept jean has cost us badly and we can blame peter for his wp bias in 2008 when he reselected jean in a failed attempt at bettering the 2007 combo of Frans and Fourie. i can tell you this much frans will never be better than morne! frans is so talented that he can do a good job in every position but 9 but 12 has always been his best hell wing then 13 are his next bests in terms of performance.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 Aug 2014, 15:49#4
Yes Gonzo, Fransie did great against the likes of the Mighty Fiji! He was a great player and might still be, but he was unfortunately never tested against NZ and Ozz in the 12 jumper. He did shine at 15 against them though, but that was 5 y ago. Jean was the first choice at 12 of the last 3 bok coaches.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
20 Aug 2014, 16:07#5
The simple truth is that Frans is no longer the athlete he once was. Frans before injuries had everything but he is now a pale shadow of what he was - alas. Folk blame him for being overweight and unfit. How do you get fit and train properly with dodgy knees. That is the problem. He has to miss practices to prevent the knees swelling up etc.
Gonzo you are living in the past. Unless Frans's medical condion is sorted he will never be the player he was.
GTGonzo the Great
Club Pro560 posts
GTGonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
20 Aug 2014, 16:07#6
yes he was you stupid fool! and he ran over three all blacks including nonu. aussies were no match for him jeez a little research wouldnt hurt your cause bra. and jean is so great the our half backs bypassed him in EVERY set play! and the stoopid fool cost us the RC by looking for an intercept in our 22 and let Beauden in for a try. because intercepts are all he has to offer. this guy is a chump. but homer knows best. oh an draaad... jeans last good season was ten years ago on the wing bwahahaha! man talk about easy pickings. oh yeah and jean was a chief culprit in the 18-0 loss in 2008. you just couldnt get it anymore wrong are you ClevarMika boet? you has ta be. what are the odds of two clowns running away from johannesburg circus and ending up here! hahahahaha!
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Aug 2014, 16:25#7
Bonzo the Apemoron
Lets look at some of the rubbish spouted by you:-
"He also did a good job for the sharks when Pienaar got injured at 10" Good when he was nt making a name for himself at 19 - because he was just to slow n reaction in the games where he played at 10.
"You want frans at 10 because he is better than lambie but he is also their best 12." When was Frans their best 12? Definitely not in 2013 - when eh was so bad that Plumtree said he will not play him at 12 again. Not this year when statistically and in practise he was regarded as the worst 12 in Super 15. His attacking game was non-eixtent and his defnse poor - should have put that in caputal letters.
"because of jordaans blowout against the highlanders he tried lambie.'
The Sharks played the Highlanders twice. In teh Round Robin game Fransie played at 12 and Jordaan at 13. In the play-off's Fansie played at 10 and Jordaan at 12. I have a look at the two games.
Jordaan0/001/2/3600015/10/000/0
Steyn0/009/8/51300035/10/000/0 There was no blow out in evidence there on the past of Jordaan. If anything Fransie was worse - he was ball-hoggng and his ball-possession losses was a course fior serious concern during the game. He was moved to flyhalf just after halftime and when the Sharks won a ball on opposition throw in a line out near the half way line, the only thing Fransie did was to kick it into the dead ball area for Smith to touch down - the most stupid kick I have seen ever.
Jordaan0/000/2/616120210/10/000/0
Steyn0/0169/7/62601114/50/000/0
Fransie was pathetic in that game - the only reasonable thing he did was his kicking at goal. His defense was pathetic - he missed more tackles thna he made. No line breaks - zilch
The blow out against the Highlanders was all Fransie - Jordaan had a good game. Any player who missed 5 out of 9 tackles should eb droped from the team forthwith.
"i can tell you this much frans will never be better than morne! frans is so talented that he can do a good job in every position but 9 but 12 has always been his best hell wing then 13 are his next bests in terms of performance."
Fransie will never be better than Morne. That set the bar extremely low. There are ample flyhalfs better than Morne - and that applies to SA as well. Morne is not a flyhalfs backside - his only asset is kic kcing at goal. Fransie is probably near to the worst center in SA - he was that in 2012 in tests and he was that in Super 15 in both 2013 and 2014. If you want to destroy a backline - play Fransie at 10 or 12.
GTGonzo the Great
Club Pro560 posts
GTGonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
20 Aug 2014, 17:27#8
actually the highlandets exploited the space between 10 and 12 where jordasn was easy oicking for offloads but you dontunderstand what you see or rugby tactics. it put huge pressure on frans to steam the tide. jake obviously knew this so he dropped jordaan too bad your mate lambie bombed even worse. if you cant understand how to use stats properly then stop using them little mika. either that ir your looking for room to work your lies. everyone knows your a liar now after you pollard plonkup.
20 Aug 2014, 17:46#9
Fransie is nowhere in sight for the Boks, which is a good thing. The only reason he got picked for the camp this year is because of his utility value and his experience. Jordaan is playing well in the Currie Cup this year and the Sharks should count their lucky stripes that Fransie is in Japan.
Also the main reason why the Sharks lost game when Fransie wasn't at flyhalf was because Swiel was there. You should look at all three Shark Flyhalves winning percentages in order for reliability because right know this thread reeks of biased opinions.
GTGonzo the Great
Club Pro560 posts
GTGonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
20 Aug 2014, 18:10#10
jordaan doing well in the currie cup sounds about right. lambie is good in the currie cup too. hows your mate goisen doing? hahshaha yeah speaking of bias i speak of you and your fangirl romance with flagpole goosen. he comes in two strips, white flag surrender and "this way" with an arrow pointing to the try line. you sure know how to call em saffex. erm i mean cheez er.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 Aug 2014, 18:13#11
He played one match at 12 against NZ, September 15, 2012. We lost that match because Morne struggled with his kicking. You are of opinion that FS is tried and tested at 12 against NZ on the basis of one game? And you call me a stupid fool for asking a question?Easy pickings you say? Jean was SA player of the year last year and World Player of the year nominee? And guess where he played last year? Yep, 12. Try and insult me all you like, that's just poor debating, but what else to expect from an obnoxious know-it-all. You are sounding more like Card by the minute. And no, I'm not saying you are him, you just sound just like him.
20 Aug 2014, 18:20#13
I'm not biased with Goosen, I just have faith in his abilities, whereas with you and Morne that's biased. Even though he continues to make mistakes and play poorly you cover them up and ignore them when another poster points them up. Nobody can debate with someone like that, who doesn't address and take notice of everything, complete bias.
One thing is for sure, you are 101% Sun-Tzu just you've stepped down on the grammar/spelling/punctuation front and become less formal.
GTGonzo the Great
Club Pro560 posts
GTGonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
20 Aug 2014, 18:29#14
you believe in fantasy cheezer! facts are there morne is way ahead of lambie and goosen. i doubt euther one will be capped again.
GTGonzo the Great
Club Pro560 posts
GTGonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
20 Aug 2014, 18:30#15
moxart i disagree with frans at 10 but at least you make an intelligent argument for your point. great read.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Aug 2014, 18:46#16
Mozart
"Frans converts the Sharks from a middle of the pack team to a contender."
Bullshit - th only thing Frans did was to kick some long trange penalties - ordinary penalties would have been kicked by other players as well. What he did do was to destroy the Sharks backline performances - and there is enough evidence to judge that statement by. His defense was putrid and at times non-exitent.
"By contrast when Frans is tackled they rarely get him to ground, with his power and low centre of gravity very few flyhalves can put him away." This is rubbish - if he is rarely put to ground he would make regular off-loads - which he is incapable of doing. Fa rnsie is fat and he is slow - he does not make meters forward when tackled and everyone brings him down like a log.
"Then there is his booming boot....nuff said." The booming boot is inaccurate and most of the times only a means to hand over possession to the opposition. He holds the record for most possession turnovers in Super 15. Why? Although hter ehas been some knock-ons of balls - it stems mostly him kicking balls directly into touch or failure to find touch when kicking leine jicjs from penalties. Happen on average twice in each game Fransie played in. NUFF said.
"Frans wants desperately to win....and he makes the team feel that urgency. He would have been my Bok 10 since 2008. No player in the game is better equipped physically to be a modern test flyhalf."
A wacky knee - poor in ball play - and physically too fat and you want him in the Springbok team - what a Joke!!!!!!!!!
GTGonzo the Great
Club Pro560 posts
GTGonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
20 Aug 2014, 18:48#17
you are so stupid its sickrning. please change your name to primordial gloop.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Aug 2014, 18:53#18
Bonzo the Apemoron
"actually the highlandets exploited the space between 10 and 12 where jordasn was easy oicking for offloads but you dont understand what you see or rugby tactics. it put huge pressure on frans to steam the tide. "
What is meant by all this drivel? The only thinhg in ecidence was that Jordaan was put under severe pressure to cover the tackles missed by Steyn and Pietersen 0 nd he did make virtually all of them.
"jake obviously knew this so he dropped jordaan"
Dimwit - Jake nver dropped Jordaan - he was out of a few games with injury problems.
The best thing for th Sharks backline is now - with useless Fransie in Ja pan
GTGonzo the Great
Club Pro560 posts
GTGonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
20 Aug 2014, 20:25#19
incorrect you cleft jordaan was the target and they gotthe offload game going and that put everyone else under pressure. yeah he has tackles successful on stats but look at the offliads the higjlanders made in contact sgainst him. what an arse clown and three of steyns misses were out wide covering rampant raids through our defence. you are a poor liar mika, very unlady like. but the fact that jake moved jordaan says it all.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Aug 2014, 20:35#20
Bonmzo
Which gam,e are you taslking about. The Play-off's? The definitely targeted Fransie - becasuse they knew his defense is poor - that is the real issue. I would rather have a player that makes tackles and not one that routinely missed them. I am not a liar I deal in facts. The player that routinely made cover tackles n was Jotrdaan - at leat he was successful. Fransie gets run over easily - he cannot move to his side when players run a line slightly to his elft or right - too immobile for that. Watch the Slade try of the Crusaders in the Round Robin phase.
Fuckwit - when did Jake dropped Jordaan? Are you dense as well as a liar?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Aug 2014, 20:47#21
Look mentioning Jordaan and defence in the same sentence is a joke. When Read ran over him in the Semi that effectively ended the game.
GTGonzo the Great
Club Pro560 posts
GTGonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
20 Aug 2014, 20:47#22
please take your gimp mask off beforr posting i never said dropped i sauid MOVED. so the liar here is YOU.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Aug 2014, 21:15#23
Jordaan was moved to outiside center where he routinely plays and he was a damn sight better 12 thn Fransie was in Super 15.
GTGonzo the Great
Club Pro560 posts
GTGonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
21 Aug 2014, 01:14#24
bwahahaha! you are too mucj mika! i sure hope you can make a good sandwhich mika you aint got much else goin for ya toots!
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
21 Aug 2014, 01:43#25
Frans was crap at 10, it's a team game. The sharks started losing when joke started losing the plot it had little to do with the 10.
Frans is a great 12 and an average 10. He does not have the software for 10 and his hand to foot is too sl ow for 10
21 Aug 2014, 13:11#27
Gonzo is living in the past..Frans of 2007 was a much different player than Frans of 2014. I am not saying Fransie is not the man for 10 or is a "worse" player but he offers something a lot different now than he did in 2007..
2007 he had pace to be a winger and plenty skill and more confidence than Mohammed Ali. Fransie of today offers strength and stability. He is not a gas man..He is strong in the tight stuff and like Moz says, he makes some telling hits to some big men. A lot of his missed tackles are backs getting through as he lacks the pace and sharpness to turn quickly. Its par for the course for a man that big. A lot of overseas teams that play SA opposition attack around our 10 channel as we usually have shaky 10's and they want to keep our big men sucked in and then strike out wide. Our men are very big and often a few offloads close in can find some holes. With Fransie there, you dont get those extra "offload" metres.. You dont get shaky defence from a little guy at 10.. What you get is smashed and when you get smashed, you dont wana get smashed again..Therefore you go a bit wider sooner and that makes defending much easier. Believe it or not, those wins with Fransie at 10 (should have beaten Brumbies too) were not luck. Fransie changes the way teams attack the Sharks..
He definitely is struggling with weight and injuries but those stats Mozart quotes dont lie. He definitely does inspire guys around him and brings the big name factor to any team he plays in.
I will tell you now that Fransie would blow up at 10 for the Aussies or AB's but for the Boks, he would be a master stroke!
21 Aug 2014, 13:42#29
Ha ha look everyone..Dave is making more calls!!Its so entertaining when he speaks rugby..A little scary but entertaining none theless!
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
21 Aug 2014, 14:35#31
Ah Chicken trying to be all clever and humorous and we have the rock spider licking his arse.......how sweet
21 Aug 2014, 15:16#32
And another lame, yet entertaining, remark.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Aug 2014, 15:31#34
Steyn is no flyhalf and his performance over the past two years in Super 15 at 12 leaves huge question marks whether he is a center either. Plumtree was probably right - his poor backline play effects the functionality of the rest of the backline.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Aug 2014, 18:25#36
The Sharks win 87.5 per cent of the time with Frans at flyhalf. Those are not easy games because they include all the away games down under. The best team in the Super 15 wins 75 per cent of their games. But Frans is no flyhalf....what utter, dishonest rubbish.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Aug 2014, 18:43#38
So a team has the best record in the S15 while he is flyhalf, but he can't play flyhalf. What rot...total Neanderthal logic.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Aug 2014, 18:51#39
Mozart
The fact that you attribute the Sharks wins to Steyn is utter rubbish. He amde one psotive contribution - namely kicking at goal.
The way in which the Sharks won most of their matches was by kicks at goal - not by scoring tries. That in the long run is counter-productive and the team loses their ability to play positive comprehensive rugby. However, there were early in the season a few long-distance penalties that would have been hard to convert by other players - but those were really the exceptions. The other penalties and kicks at goal would have been onverted by any other flyhalf.
The function of a flyhalf is not only to kick at goal - to allow for a team to perform it is also necessary to score tries and that is where your theory becomes unstuck. During the whole of Super 15 Frans was inviolved in ONE movement that lef to scoring of tries. Gor the rest Steyn was -
* poor in attacking play - at flyhalf he made one line break in all the matches he played in and beat the least number of defenders of any other player in 10 or 12;
* the worst defender in teh competition at 10 or 12;
* seriously indesive as to when to pass balls and kick - with the result he constantly took the wrong decisions;
* his passing game ranged from poor to ineffective - he did not know whom to pass to and made skip passes - cutting out overlaps - and passes were ill-timed and went astray as well;
* the worst player insofar as ball possession losses were concerned and most of those came from ill-directed kicks out of hand; and
* his kicks were misdirected and consequently often enough means possission hand-overs to the opposition.
in essence Fransie as the saboteur who reduced the Sharjks backline efficiency completely. With one exception - the only time when backline players scored tries was when Fransie was not involved at all.
In essence there is ample proof that the Sharks would have done better in Super 15 without the Steyn handoicap in their backline. Thre is ample proof of what I wrote in evidence and the fact that you want Fransie in the Springbok squad playing at 10 is sheer lunacy.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Aug 2014, 19:01#40
All speculation. Flyhalf is the most critical position on the park....no team builds the best record in the S15 without an effective flyhalf. You can come up with all sorts of theories...but the ultimate proof is in the pudding. Fran's was a very effective flyhalf, the results speak for themselves.
