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The weekend CC games

Started by clevermike21 REPLIES431 VIEWS· 02 Sept 2012, 00:43
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Sept 2012, 00:43
#1
02 Sept 2012, 00:43#1

It was particularly interesting to watch the CC games this weekend - especially since there are some players that served in the Springbok squad and was on display.   There are other interesting younger players that I follow to see how they shape up.

The Lions - Griquas game.   This was a very interesting and nice game to watch and the player that I watched in particular was Jantjies.   Last week against WP - he made two criitial bugger-ups that could easily have led to tries by WP.   This week he was much, much worse - he fumbled balls, gave many hospital passes that put  the Lions on the back foot and he was defensively poor.   Jantjies problem is the few - (normally sideways)  steps he takes before passing the ball to the next player.   He once tried a line break - but in the process lost the ball.   He was by far  the worst performer in the Lions team.   No wonder he was replaced halfway through the second half.   After his replacement the Lions backline started to function better and the result was two brilliant backline tries.  This one is all hype - and I believe that I am entitled to ask what the hell was he doing in the Springbok squad if he cannot perform satisfactorily on CC level.

The Sharks - Cheetahs game.   The Sharks barely managed a win - but the scoreline should have been much bigger in their favour - but for a serious of poor play by Ludick, Viljoen, McCleod and Botes.   The latter had a horrible game giving away a try as a result of poor ball handling as well as numerous penalties.   Ludick interfered needlessly when Jordaan made a break and would have scored a very good try and made a number of other errors.  Viljoen and McCleod tried too much and the result was often that balls died with them.  The result was neutralizing of the Sharks backline.   Jordaan could have scored a try - but for the stupidity of Ludick.  He "made" the last try of the Sharks through a brilliant break and the only reason he did not score was because he was ankle-tapped.   However, he off-loaded brilliantly and the result was an inevitable try.   Daniel had a very good game and it was evident that he remains a top-class player.

The Province - Bulls game.   There is no doubt that blessings rained upon the Province team.   The main one was that De Jongh was not there to neutralize their backline play.   Their backline functioned brilliantly and they scored three very good backline tries.   That shows what a bad affect De Jongh has on their backline performance.   They over-shadowed the Bulls completely.   The players I looked at in this game was Engelbrecht, Aplon, Kruger, Serfontein and CJ Stander.   The problem for Engelbrecht and Serfonetin was they never really got quality ball from their forwards.   In essence whilst Serfontein at least tried some things and defended well - Engelbrecht did nothing of note and his defence was really also not up to standard.   Aplon was solid - but for one bad mistake he made when he stood back and allowed a high ball to bounce in front of him - the ball never arrived and that nearly caused a try for the Bulls,   Stander was part of a sub-par forward combination that was completely outplayed by the Province front-rankers.   Kruger in particular was POOR in capital letters.   Of the younger players I was particularly impressed by Elstadt, the young center Du Plessis (who replaced the normally pedestrian De Jongh) and the hooker they brought in to replace Fourie - who was moved to no 6 flank.   Du Plessis was better than every other backline player on dsplay and is a star in the making,  The young hooker played an extremely good game and he was MOM.

The above raise a serious questions about Meyer's selection  criteria.   If he can select Kruger, De Jongh, Jantjies and Engelbrecht for the Springbok squad - the real question is whether his selections are based on performance or on hype.   When players selected by him come back and disgrace themselves on CC-level, there is really a major problem in evidence. 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
02 Sept 2012, 01:04
#2
02 Sept 2012, 01:04#2

Jantjes was indeed poor and should not be replacing Morne as snaspter has been suggesting.

Jordaan is good enough for consideration to the Bok squad.

Du Plessis was a revelation and it is clear JJ is better off on the wing. That little WP hooker did well but his scrumming is no up to it. The man of the match by some way was unquestionably Deon Fourie. As I have said before he looks a better player than Brussouw. Brache also played well but will need to get stronger to survive Super rugby. Elstadt coming back from injury was very good. Our half back pair was also more dynamic and there was a desire to run the ball and gert stuck in.

Those like windpomp writing the WP obituary must be scratching their heads yet again.

Result bulle whipped. Meyer take note.

Rhule looked good for Free State. 

 

 

 

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
02 Sept 2012, 16:42
#3
02 Sept 2012, 16:42#3

Marcel Brache made Duppie yesterday. Certainly one to watch as well. It really looks like Deon should rather play openside. Thanx to my WP for making my w/e!

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Sept 2012, 20:53
#4
02 Sept 2012, 20:53#4

Agree with you about Brache - they made a very good center combination yesterday

AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
03 Sept 2012, 07:15
#5
03 Sept 2012, 07:15#5

 The Sharks game was an absolute nightmare for their supporters.

The ball that Botes dropped was actually bad pass from Viljoen...no matter they are both players that should not be in the team.

Who ever signed Viljoen up for the Sharks should be fired asap....he is well below the standard of Shark rugby.

Botes is/has been overated all his playing career and is nothing but a passanger to his fellow players.

Both these guys would be more suited in the EP Queens colours next season.

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
03 Sept 2012, 11:02
#6
03 Sept 2012, 11:02#6

 Talking about the WP Centres.....

1. They got good quick fast ball from Nick Groom (He had an exceptional game)

2. Catrakilis may be slow, but he has a head on him and he sent the ball wide really well(The Kings have made a good buy here)

3. Because of the Above, Brache got clean ball ( nice change for WP). Brache has always been an exceptional link, he offloads the ball brilliantly, but for some reason not everyone sees that or they only saw that now. I have said this before. Go and have a look at his UCT Games in the Varsity Cup when UCT won it and you will see it there as well as in the Vodacom Cup this year. He is a pure inside centre link. Defensively not the best but not really that bad, there are worse. A very nice inside centre to have. His combination with big powerfull JP Du Plessis is something to behold. As JP has started the offload ala Brache/Sonny Bill as well now. This is what made them so effective. I really like these two as a combo. they can get the ball out wide. Given Catrakillis and Groom plyed there part as well.

CA
carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
03 Sept 2012, 11:20
#7
03 Sept 2012, 11:20#7

yeah the sharks game was a bad one but if one plays so badlly and still wins then its still ok in my book. cant play well every weekend.

 

in regards to the wp groom is your best option on no 9. really played well and duppies and marcel played with nice range and speed. that being said there used the ball well and the bulls defence lines were outrunned by so much quick ball that no defence in the world can sustain that type of quick ball. just shows attack is done well can outgun any defence on any day.

 

the bulls defence was just rubbish as well so that just combounded the problem but attacking wise the wp was onsong. they did not do anything special but still manged to get the ball over the gain line. shows a maties type of rugby pattern allmost.

 

i must say this weekend just proved that beeno is once again wrong in stating that the conf cup is more important than the cc cup. but that we all knew anyways.

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
03 Sept 2012, 11:24
#8
03 Sept 2012, 11:24#8

 

carpetmuncher
 
Status: Bok regular 
Posts: 623 RE: The weekend CC games
September 03, 2012, 09:20:51

 

i must say this weekend just proved that beeno is once again wrong in stating that the conf cup is more important than the cc cup. but that we all knew anyways.

 

Carpet, actually if you really think about it Beeno has been proved right.......Go and look at the attendance numbers for all the games........Really pathetic, CC has lost it's shine.

CA
carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
03 Sept 2012, 11:37
#9
03 Sept 2012, 11:37#9

in terms of the attendence numbers maybe its a bit off but that is due to the fact that the castle camps are on and to be fair newlands itself is to blame for the poor attendence due to all its issues with parking and other expenses that one has to pay.

 

the area around the stadium has allows been a problem for me personally and they need to make a major revamp of it. the bok game was also dogged by poor attendences. the wp's play has also tended for people to rather stay at home. to be fair who can blaim then. not one single person want to see the beeno game pattern of defence only stormers style but after this weekends play the wp has saved a little bit of face.

 

i feel the games should be move to greenpoint and the "ghetto" elements that make the rugby games on a saterday a nightmere here in cape town can be removed as a result.

 

there is a lot of rugby on at the moment but when the champs stop you will see the numbers go up again

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
03 Sept 2012, 12:08
#10
03 Sept 2012, 12:08#10

 Carpet, that is bullshit and you know it,

1.Newlands have the best attendance numbers of any stadium in south Africa irrelevant of how they play. 

2. My Referance had nothing to do woth Newlands or the WP game, but the CC in general, I said all games.

3. The only valid argument you have there is the one about the Championship, but that is also null and void for this weekend as there where no championship games on this weekend, and still none of the stadiums were full.

I again state. Beeno has a pioint if you look at attendance nuymbers, and you can argue until you are blue, these facts are showing. No Cusrrie cup game so far this year has been sold out, anywhere. Fact. 

This is sad, but true.

CA
carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
03 Sept 2012, 12:25
#11
03 Sept 2012, 12:25#11

offcourse the numbers are down. do you really think a normal man on the street wants to go and watch rugby if he can watch the AB in the morning and 4 games on the tv before his main game of interest ???? as well the amount of money being spent in getting to the game and during the game is also not a problem for many cash strapped people. that is also a known fact.

 

there is to much rugby and people are over stimulated by to many rugby going on. in terms of the rugby intensity and quality being produced the cc is still up there from a pure rugby purist perspective

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
03 Sept 2012, 12:35
#12
03 Sept 2012, 12:35#12

 The Purists don't fill the stadiums...

The crowds attending are at the same level as the Vodacome Cup....

There was no Championship rugby on this weekend, it made no difference to the attendance numbers...

 

There are various factors, but if you deny that the CC has waned in importance you are not looking at the facts.

CA
carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
03 Sept 2012, 12:45
#13
03 Sept 2012, 12:45#13

yes your right EK but even at 14 odd thousend attendence its allmost on par with NZ and the other unions levels of attendence. its not stellar by no means the grim picture that your painting. stats have shown that when tournaments overlap the lesser of the 2 tournaments generally suffers more. its a normal occurence. then the castle champs stopps then the rugby public will flock back. its just a matter of to much games and people generally pic the bigger tournaments to watch and support. you cant say after just a few weeks of rugby that suddenly the cc has lost its shine. the facts are there is to many rugby games in one part of the season but after the major tournaments are concluded you will see the shift back to the cc.

 

14 thousand is not bad. how can you then explain the poor attendence at newlands during the boks game against the pumas EK ?????

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
03 Sept 2012, 12:56
#14
03 Sept 2012, 12:56#14

Carpetmuncher ane Ek

There is a problem here that both of you seem to over-look.   If a team plays well - the supporters would be there.  Western Province did not exactly cover themselves in glory in their first three matches in the CC competition and the incentive to come and watch them play - was not really there.   I bet you that for the next CC game at Newlands the supporters will be back to cheer on their team and to watch entertaining ruigby. 

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
03 Sept 2012, 12:57
#15
03 Sept 2012, 12:57#15

 "14 thousand is not bad. how can you then explain the poor attendence at newlands during the boks game against the pumas EK ?????"

Was it Poor? i thought there where at least 40 to 43 000 people for a game against what alot of the uninformed masses see as weaker opposition, that is not poor.

14 000 people for a Bulls - Province Currie Cup game at Newlands without there bieng any other game on the weekend is bad, really Bad. Same as the bad attendance for all the other games over the weekend. 

But yes hopefully when the Championship is concluded the crowds will go back we shall see. But at this point i think it must be one of the worst attended Currie Cups in history. 

The Quality of the Rugby ,makes no difference to the masses, They claim it does, but in truth ......... They are just there to have a good time and soak up the atmosphere, which is non existent at this stage.

CA
carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
03 Sept 2012, 13:05
#16
03 Sept 2012, 13:05#16

for a bok international game that was very poor attendence. with huge amount of open seats in the stands ext.

14K is pretty standard for most rugby unions around the world in terms of local games.

 

well it might be true that the numbers are down but then ask the question what has changed from this year to the last.....the question is the extended super rugby comp and the castle champs.....so i promise you the numbers will change as soon as there is no other distractions. the repective unions and media have not down a lot of marketiing either. the shine is always bee there its the cc for crying out loud. oldest comp in the world by far.

 

i understand you view but saru needs to move the timetable and maybe play it only after the castle champs maybe to ensure its longterm sucess and viewership

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
03 Sept 2012, 13:10
#17
03 Sept 2012, 13:10#17

 

  carpetmuncher
 
Status: Bok regular 
Posts: 639 RE: The weekend CC games
September 03, 2012, 11:05:30

 

 

well it might be true that the numbers are down but then ask the question what has changed from this year to the last.....the question is the extended super rugby comp and the castle champs.....so i promise you the numbers will change as soon as there is no other distractions. the repective unions and media have not down a lot of marketiing either. the shine is always bee there its the cc for crying out loud. oldest comp in the world by far.

 

 

Agreed Totally, from their my whole argument, and Beeno's that the S15 conferance cup has more value. As the S15 has taken the crowds. 

If the schedule changes, we play less S15 rugby and CC does not have to compete with crowds, the CC will regain it's value.

But the fact remains now. It is devalued and the numbers compared to the past indicates this. SARU's mistake, yes. But denying the fact that it's true and that the CC has lost it's shine is ignorant, and denying the fact that there is a problem.

CA
carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
03 Sept 2012, 13:30
#18
03 Sept 2012, 13:30#18

i dont agree with your post at all. the numbers are less but not a crisis. the likes of nz and wallies consider a 14 k crowd as not to bad so your assumtion that its a major problem is very much unfounded.

 

trying to even consider that the conf cup has at some rudemental level has more value just looking at the crowd numbers is very very juvenile and even more ignorant. the crowd numbers were the same before the conf system was intraduced and due to the strucure change the numbers will offcourse increase because of the higher amount of games. the conf cup is nice little fad. its not a serparte system it form part of the super rugby comp. even stating that the conf cup that has only been around for 2 years is more worthy than a comp that has over 100 + years history is very short sighted. you entitled to you view but not looking at the undercurrent factors leaves it rather unsupported.

 

the conf cup wont be around much longer and is not a major cup to win. cc will be around for the next 100 odd years that i will assure you. while the conf cup/noddy badge cup wont see another 5 years

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
03 Sept 2012, 13:38
#19
03 Sept 2012, 13:38#19

 Carpet, the Dabate is not around the fact that the CC is in crisis or not. It was around the Value of the CC as to the S15 Conference Cup. And taking into account the Attendance numbers ignoring the fact that the CC has lost thiose numbers and still claiming that it has more value than the S15 conferance cup, is slightly uninformed and emotional. As the facts don't point that way, and it is ignorant to deny it.

the CC will never Die, It is and remains a great competition ,espectially now with the strengh vs Strength competition. You can jump from Sixth place on the log to second in one weekend. However, the masses are voting with their feet, and SARU needs to listen. It is not the mistake of the CC they made the right decision regarding the CC, The other Competitions are pushing it out. and the amount of S15 from there the Debate, that we cannot ignore, S15 Conference cup will only not be important to those that don't see the numbers or those that whish for it to be not important from a nostalgic point of view.

These are important facts that they should take into account when they redesign the Southrn Hemisphere competitions. As it is degrading the CC Fact. weither the conferance cup is around in 5 years or not, is irrelevant, as we need to look at the facts now, to make sure the CC stadiums seats are fuilled in the future. And not be ignorant to it.

CA
carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
03 Sept 2012, 14:33
#20
03 Sept 2012, 14:33#20

in short...the conf cup is not a major cup but rather a addon to the super rugby comp that is a major comp. the cc is a major comp and will continue to do be such until saru stops it all together. those that even remotely see a correlation between the conf cup and cc is losing sight of the fact that the conf cup is not considered a major comp. the real argument is that the super rugby comp is drawing more crowds than the cc. in its design that is the idea behind it. as the super rugby comp expands this type of problem will just get combounded. when the japs and pumas get some teams in the super comp then you will see even longer playing windows

 

the cc is a separte entity where the conf cup is just a addon on the super rugby structure.

KI
kingcornPro3,695 posts
03 Sept 2012, 15:40
#21
03 Sept 2012, 15:40#21

 I can't ever remember that any of the currie cup games in the past year have had fully attendence. The only time fans come to the game if there teams make the semi and finals. 

I think that the games should be played and smaller venues rather than bigger ones, that way preserve the atmosphere and it doesn't look so bad when you watching it on TV. 

I also dislike the fact that there are so many derby matches in s15. It has taken a lot away and having to watch the stormer / wp play the bulls for the 5th time has lost its appeal for me already.

Yes, strength vs strength looks good, but its pointless as you rugby in total loses its value.

I would rather go back to 14 teams in the currie cup, have a salary cap on the teams in the CC and ensure that all teams have equal quality of players. It will be down to coaching and the team rather than which team has the most depth. 

It is rediculous to think that a player like Nic Groom is only the 3rd choice and that he just has to collect a pay check at the end of the month to keep him at the union when he could move up the road to Boland, get the same money, but at least get game time.

It also helps rugby in the smaller unions. Their crowds seem to swell when bigger unions come to play against them.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Sept 2012, 13:03
#22
04 Sept 2012, 13:03#22

I started off the discussion about the quality of rugby played in the CC games - coupled to the performance of some of the players - making some rather ontroversial observations - but the whole discussion actually ended up in a discussion of attendance of games.   That really did not relate to the real topic involved.

There are various factors that influence crowd attendance and only one of those - namely the surfeit of rugby games this year - was mentioned.   The main factors are the following: -

*    The nature of the game - international teams in eg the Super 15 has stronger attraction than local teams'

*    The level of rugby performance by the local team - are they playing well or not;

*     Facilities and accessibility - Newlands always had problems in this regard 

*     Affordability 

*     Extraneous factors such as weather conditions, etc

*     TV coverage of games

Despite all the comments about issues - one of my comments on performance coupled to crowd attendance was dismissed or ignored.   Despite the negative comments - they key issue centers around team performances.    If the team has been as bad as they played in the first 3 matches in CC this year - there is every pointer that the crowds will be reduced.    Crowds generally would not want to see their local team disgraced - so they would not turn up for matches that would be monotonous and likely to be lost.   This was certainly one of the factors that reduced attendance on Saturday last week.

The second factor that we must admit played a role on Saturday was the poor weather conditions preceeding the game.   Even though it did not rain on the day in question - it was still very cold and miserable.   That on its own could reduce attendance by as many as 5 000 potential spectators.

The issue of affordability is one issue that must never be over-looked.   The country is in a serious economic situation and the people themselves have to budget very carefully to survive financially.   That and ticket prices no doubt contribute to lower attendance figures.  

Many people believes that they can get a better insight in games by watching it on TV - where replays give a clearer picture of what actually happens on the field of play.   The main difference is the on-field excitement in attendance of games - but that again is influenced largely by the team performances in the compeition.

In essence the above influenced attendance to a major extend and had no doubt an influence in crowd attendance on Saturday - and even in the test against Argentina.   The latter team is still regarded by many as a minnow in the Southern hemisphere.   On the other hand - there is wide public scepticism about the Springbok performances this year - even against the POMS they really under-performed and the booing of the team in PE indicates that they are not really accepted as the best SA has to offer.   In general the rugby played by the Springboks was pedestrian and very dull.

If the Springboks start to perform better against stronger foreign teams - the crowd will be there to cheer them on.   Bad performances would continue to reduce attendance - end of story.

Having said that - I was hoping for more comments on the actual  field of play peformance and must say I was disappointed with the fact that my original comments were largely ignored. 

 

— END OF THREAD —

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