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FORUM / RUGBY /  What lies behind the failure of Serfontein/JJ

What lies behind the failure of Serfontein/JJ

Started by Mozart98 REPLIES1,510 VIEWS· 27 Aug 2014, 02:52
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Aug 2014, 02:52
#1
27 Aug 2014, 02:52#1

....and you can candy coat this, but failure it is. Neither is in the Boks 23, and JJ is slipping onto the Bools bench. They both had poor S15s, JJ's almost looked like a player giving up. Why?

 

Well let's go back 15 or so months. JJ was the flavour of the day for the new player groupies. Fast, an elegant runner and crucially a Goldilocks, neither too big nor too small size.

 

Then there was Serfontein, fresh off a succesful Junior Rugby Cup, the player of the tournament....the guy who ostensibly was going to knock Jean off his perch. Jan burst onto the scene with lots of energy, his confidence infused the sometimes listless JJ with energy. They ended the S15 well, although the brighter fans noted Serfontein only stepped  inside and were reminded of Meisiekind.

 

Still all seemed set fair as the Boks pummeled the Bargies at home. But then in Mendoza Bosch ran straight through JJ for a try that should never have been scored.

 

Gradually while Serfontein was on the bench, Engelbrecht lost elevation....ending in a disastrous Ellis Park test where he was responsible for a swing of 21 points. He has never started again and is no longer in the mix at all.

 

Serfontein had an unfortunate bench season last year. But when he got on the park, he was unconvincing. His   stats from the Ellis Park test when he came on for Habana are shown below. He made zero tackles and incredibly given how much we defended, zero tackle attempts. He ran 3 times, made 5 metres and lost the ball twice.

 

His supporters will claim he isn't a wing, but guys like Jean and Fransie played all over the place and looked like test players. And wing or no wing, those stats are terrible. An engaged player, who was trying to help his team just had to make a few tackle attempts. In my view he was frozen.

The decline in his fortunes continued at S15 level this year, where crash ball and inside stepping were totally expected. Some want him to replace Jean, but no serious coach would entertain that.

 

But why have they flopped that badly? My guess is because they had fatal flaws all along. JJ just can't go low, he is one of those guys who dislikes tackling....nor does he have any vision. Steppie is a trier but not particularly strong by international standards and quite slow. So how is he going to beat defences? It's not going to happen.

 

In short this is just another example of too much hype before there was any proof.

 

W)Serfontein0/000/1/350002 0/00/000/0
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Aug 2014, 03:28
#2
27 Aug 2014, 03:28#2
 I saw the line blaming JJ for the Bok loss in his finest test and refrained from reading the rest of that shit.....For its just a pack of lies.
What makes the whole take that much more of a joke is the fact that JJ s replacements at 13 have been more than useless.
As for serfontein, well one certainty is that in two tests against the argies there is no way in hell he would have only gained 24m and not beaten a single defender in the process. Jean is another washed up has been
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Aug 2014, 03:30
#3
27 Aug 2014, 03:30#3
 Mozart
The problem is you are always onto something stupid.  I agree with the fact that JJ is not the right choice at 13 and that he is not a center - but a wing.
Your all take on Serfointein is utter bukllshiot and the moment you give a player a nickname and start using selective stats - it means yo are BS big time.   But lets be more explixit.
Lets go back to the  Ellis Park test - where you blame Engelbrecht for a 21 point test swing.   You know what - the worst two players causing uttr BS that day was Morne BD Steyn and Wllem Alberts.   Both misse tackles that led to the Ben Smith try.   Seven point swing.   The enxt try was a miracle.  Aaron Smith got tackled two meters oput - Alberts is citrtually there to take the tackle ball - but he fell over his own feet - ball recovered by AB's and Messam's first try followed  - swing 7 points.
Then followed the worst play ever known to mankind.    Morne BD Steyn got the ball from a breakdown in teh Springboks 22 seconds before the halftime siren.   Instead of kicking the ball out of touch - like any normal flyhalf would do - he passed the ball and Engelbrecht ended up with a ball facing two opponenets - They took over possession and Messam's try followed - 7 points.   Who was the idiot here - only Morne Steyn.
Three tries accounted for - now for the fourth one.   Barrett got the ball - Jean de Villiers went out of line - first mistake.   Instead of tackling Barrett - Morne Steyn slapped him on his back missing he tackle - second mistake.   Engelbrecht missed his tackle - third mistake.  Try scored - but all three players were in fact poor defensively.   However, in essense the fact that Enngelvrecht missed the tackle makes him responsible as well.
So you blamed only Engelbrecht - what about the other three players?
Where I do agree with you is the Engelbrecht does not show anything reasonable in both attack and defense - but to make garbled accusations is utter BS - stick to the truth - it is more convincing.
Your usage of stats in this case of Sefontein is also BS.  He came on the wing from teh ebnch for ten minutes and those are the stats you use here.   He is NO a wing - you bloody ald fraudster - he is a center.    If you want to use stats - why not use the stats for the three tests in June when he started for the Springboks at center.
You have no idea about pace of player - you allege that some relaly slow players have pace and others you just accuse of lack of pace.   There is nothing wrong with the pace of Serfontein at center - he is faster than Fransie - whom you say has sufficent pace.  
I do not believe that Serfontein is ou first choice 12 at present - but he stood in for DE Billiers in June wand there was nothing wrong with his performance.  JJ has flopped - Sergnontein has NOT - and your allegations are based on your normal moron speak in  the case of the latter.   
Why don;t you stick to facts and not usage of misleading and selective stats to make a point that is BS in the  extreme?  


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Aug 2014, 03:47
#4
27 Aug 2014, 03:47#4
 He came off the bench for 10 minutes....really?
21Serfontein - sub on
Habana - sub off
What an ill informed fool you are. Serfontein played  three quarters of that wide open test without making one tackle. He was all but a passenger. To even mention him in the same class as Jean is a joke.
Why don't you stick to facts...real facts.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Aug 2014, 04:23
#5
27 Aug 2014, 04:23#5
 In wich posiition did he play BS Bertie Mozart? 
Why did you quote that stats and not the stats when he played in his real position at center for 240 minutes - and concentrate on the 60 minutes he played on the wing?   That is what I meant when I say your usage of stats is rubbish in capial letters.   Come now let us have his center stats or stop your KAK.   
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
27 Aug 2014, 04:42
#6
27 Aug 2014, 04:42#6
I'm supporting Mike in this. You were the only fan who thought this, calling yourself bright? Arrogant and stupid.
This is a prime example why I do not like you Mozart - "although the brighter fans noted Serfontein only stepped  inside and were reminded of Meisiekind." -  You were the only fan who thought this, calling yourself bright? Arrogant and stupid.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Aug 2014, 07:29
#7
27 Aug 2014, 07:29#7
Nice try OOm you claim he was on for 10 minutes....then when you find Steppie was on for 59 minutes, you attack the fact that he was on the wing, as if that excuses the fact that he never got himself into position to make one tackle. You would do better just admitting your latest of many mistakes
The truth is  both of these guys are massive disappointments and on the slippery slope. Just two more of the supposedly mistreated young players who have failed to grab their opportunities with both hands. Compare them with a young Joubert, a young de Villiers a young RWC playing Frans. Those guys belonged right out of the box.
But here's the thing De Allende had two very poor tests against Argentina. So we are likely to get Steppie back for one of the tests in Oz/NZ. HM must be really grinding on having DeAllende in the highly technical  13 defensive role. So odds are Steppie  will probably get one more shot.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Aug 2014, 10:34
#8
27 Aug 2014, 10:34#8
 Hell - but you are a real moron.  Serfontein was never a massive disappointment and De Allende did more in ball carries than  the other backline players did - he made some line breaks and in the secoind test there was nothing wrong with his defense.   What you see of players is twisted and turned into fabrications - the biggest BS of all.
When you write what happend in a match - it is twisted and totally contradictory to facts.   Is  your mind as twisted as your writings on this site?        
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
27 Aug 2014, 11:32
#9
27 Aug 2014, 11:32#9
 I hate to spoil agood argument but JJ is not to blame. The call to see is he could make an outside center was worth a shot. It didnt come off and he should have moved back to wing a while back. The dumb bulle are still playing him center and ruining his career.
Jan is not slow at all and has improved his Bok perfromances as time goes by. He was good in the June tests. At close to 100 kg and compact he is a powerful guy but not a monster.Another player being ruined by the bulle who are so dumb that they want to use this player who showed great passing skills earlier on into a crash baller.
Neither does it help that the Boks dont have a decent backline coach!!!! Both JJ and Jan made bad mistakes in falling for the bulle cheque book. Meyer has not seen that JJ could be excellent on the wing. 
All in all a typical example of us ruining our talent. I think all coaches should have IQ tests. I fear 3 IQ could have competition.


PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
27 Aug 2014, 11:39
#10
27 Aug 2014, 11:39#10
De Allende made some line breaks.
Jean manufactured a critical try.

Which do you think was more significant in the context of the game?
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
27 Aug 2014, 11:57
#11
27 Aug 2014, 11:57#11
Who do you think is worth more in the long run, Pakie ? Ie the future ????  


PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
27 Aug 2014, 12:09
#12
27 Aug 2014, 12:09#12
I don't know Becs. De Allende has not impressed in his first few tests so the jury is out on whether he can make the step up. He runs strongly, but also turned the ball over in contact a few times on Saturday and looked all at sea defensively yet again. I don't know his future worth at this moment, time will tell. He may be another JJ.

Jean is obviously near the end of his career, so his future value is limited. But we are playing test rugby right now, aren't we? And he still has a role to play, as he showed on Saturday.

So the answer to your question is neither, until De Allende shows us something more substantial than a few strong runs. The same goes for Serfontein.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Aug 2014, 12:16
#13
27 Aug 2014, 12:16#13
The fact that I have evidenced Serfontein making outside breaks seems to have been ignored......but at least Serfontein has a step on him, something Jean has NEVER had  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Aug 2014, 12:17
#14
27 Aug 2014, 12:17#14
Pakie how did Jean manufacture a try exactly......stop speaking SHIT  
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
27 Aug 2014, 12:26
#15
27 Aug 2014, 12:26#15
There's a whole thread about it elsewhere Dave, but I'll do a rough description here again:

Jean engaged two defenders to open the wing. He drifted to the right of the first defender prior to receiving the pass so that he was running past him on catching the ball. This allowed him to draw in the second defender before slipping a perfectly timed backhand pass out of the double tackle to leave Hendricks with only one to deal with and the opportunity to build up enough steam to get over the line.
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
27 Aug 2014, 13:15
#16
27 Aug 2014, 13:15#16
The point is, Pakie, Jean, with all his experience, has been poor. Both as a leader and as a player. He did one thing.....threw a pass, something he should be doing in every match. That is a given. It resulted in a Try, well done ! Yes, it ultimately made the difference in sparing your blushes, but this is how propaganda starts. Think about it clearly and rationally for once. Take your SA hat off and try and step back from it all.
Do you want the best for your team in the long run ? Do you accept that some players have had their day ? Do you need fresh blood ? Do you accept that new players need time to gel ? Do you accept that the tactics are not necessarily working/bringing out the best in the players ? 

Seriously, forget the spats and nastiness. Think clearly about it all.
I support SA as my second team, always have. But I do not see a team that is functioning and I see a team that needs new players and a new system. Like my lot did. And you have to expect teething problems from that too. But it needs putting in place sooner rather than later. The clock is ticking !   
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
27 Aug 2014, 14:00
#17
27 Aug 2014, 14:00#17
Yes to all your question Becs.

I'm not a Meyer apologetic. I think tactically the Boks have been poor. The Argies executed their kicking game much more accurately than us, for example. We have a very flat and archaic style of backplay.

Personally I would like to see De Allende have a run at 12 because we have to keep in mind he is playing test rugby in a position that he's not familiar with. I think that's an error in judgment on Meyer's part. Jean has far more experience at all levels of the game at 13 and honestly, we don't have any young 13 showing test potential right now.

So with next year being a world cup year no, I'm not convinced Meyer is taking the right line here. Will Victor for example have another year in him? What did bringing back Juan Smith achieve? Why do we have players in the South African national side who can't even get a starting berth at their European clubs? There's a lot going on here that I'm not happy with.


BE
becsPro4,378 posts
27 Aug 2014, 14:17
#18
27 Aug 2014, 14:17#18
But the thing is, Pakie, you might have guys out there that you don't think have the potential, but they actually would perform if they were given the chance. With the right coach, tactics and other players around them. It's called synergy. It doesn't always mean you have to have the absolute best players filling your team in every position. Sometimes you actually get a team that gels better with one or two so called lesser players....I personally prefer these types than your so called superstars, myself ! 
But you will never know if you don't give them the chance. And treating some of these youngsters the way they have been treated is suicidal really...their confidence will be shot. Others, like some of your old guard, have too much confidence. They seem to think they are untouchable.  
It's a difficult situation really.
Worst case scenario is you claim a few scalps this RC playing this way with this team. Because things don't change and they need to.
Trust me, I know. We stuck at it for too long. I was a lone voice !!! 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Aug 2014, 15:54
#19
27 Aug 2014, 15:54#19
Pakie you are clutching at straws......Jean did stuff all......it was a good flat pass from Morne followed by plenty of work to be done by Hendricks to score the try......Jean had very little to do with it and to credit him with setting up the try is bloody laughable  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Aug 2014, 16:20
#20
27 Aug 2014, 16:20#20
Dave if you can't see two Bargies on the deck next to Jean you need your eyes tested....two players taken out =overlap, which sprang Hendriks who then did a nice inside /outside fade and stretch to beat the cover. Morne, Jean and Hendriks all did superbly.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Aug 2014, 16:28
#21
27 Aug 2014, 16:28#21

Jean had little to do with it.....the try was set up by the flat Morne pass and the work Hendricks had to do to make the line.....there was no overlap, for had there been one, Hendricks would have breezed over the line.

 

The real issue is just how bloody ineffective Jean has been in his last two tests. He should not be there.......Serfontein is way, way better  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Aug 2014, 16:44
#22
27 Aug 2014, 16:44#22
Man you are stubborn. Have you never heard of the cover defence? If you are put outside the defence you have an overlap, that doesn't mean there is no cover. Of course he had an overlap and of course that happened because Jean engaged two defenders. That little fade move on the pass Jean made was pure class.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Aug 2014, 16:54
#23
27 Aug 2014, 16:54#23
Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8870 RE: What lies behind the failure of Serfontein/JJ
August 27, 2014, 14:28:43

Jean had little to do with it.....the try was set up by the flat Morne pass and the work Hendricks had to do to make the line.....

 
How lucky that we had ("deep in the pocket" ) Morne on the field at that stage...............

BE
becsPro4,378 posts
27 Aug 2014, 16:55
#24
27 Aug 2014, 16:55#24
Oh yes. Praise Morne !  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Aug 2014, 17:26
#25
27 Aug 2014, 17:26#25
Thanks Becs  
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
27 Aug 2014, 17:43
#26
27 Aug 2014, 17:43#26
Hendriks Try
MA
MachiavelliClub Pro323 posts
27 Aug 2014, 17:48
#27
27 Aug 2014, 17:48#27
 Backline failures can be attributed to the inept coach - Loubsher.. Fool!
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
27 Aug 2014, 17:50
#28
27 Aug 2014, 17:50#28
It was a good flat pass by Morne. Jean probably called for the ball as Morne was drifting with the angled run, which allowed Jean plenty of time to run onto the ball. 
Jean draws 2 players to create the overlap, and offloads to Hendriks who has a one on one with the fullback. Hendriks does well to beat his man and finish the try.
It was good play by Morne, Jean and Hendriks. Jean should get credit though for the try assist as he did make the pass by drawing 2 players to create the overlap.

PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
27 Aug 2014, 18:00
#29
27 Aug 2014, 18:00#29
Dave will only see the overlap if Jean changes his surname to Serfontein.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Aug 2014, 18:18
#30
27 Aug 2014, 18:18#30

I am not too bothered about whether Jean did or did not......the real issue is how kak he has been.

 

Vlagshit.....yeah that flat pass from Morne is the one positive I have seen from him in the last 5 years.......it 1 to Morne 100 to the opposition......start Morne I say!!!!!!!!!  

BE
becsPro4,378 posts
27 Aug 2014, 18:25
#31
27 Aug 2014, 18:25#31
Oh here we go, hostilities resume. 

You cannot deny there are problems with your team. 
This is just a cyclical argument and it does no-one any favours.

You are all as pig headed as each other.  
GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
27 Aug 2014, 19:31
#32
27 Aug 2014, 19:31#32
 i dont like jean as a player i think he has problems but mozart does raise some good points none that are countered with anything but childish immature stupid anal dribble. serioysly guys you must have more in you thrn that.... surely? ah well, ill just wait for the cussing to begin 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Aug 2014, 19:39
#33
27 Aug 2014, 19:39#33

Bozo shut the fuck up we are not interested in your points of view

 

de Wet Barry is all that needs to be said  

PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
27 Aug 2014, 19:41
#34
27 Aug 2014, 19:41#34
Give us a break Becs, it's the only positive we have to take out of the game. We have to milk it for all it's worth.
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
27 Aug 2014, 19:54
#35
27 Aug 2014, 19:54#35
No, Pakie.

I think the problem is you that most of you would absolutely refuse to agree with S simply because. And that is just plain silly when the likes of yourself agree with most of what he is saying.

I don't understand it.

I don't agree with indoctrination in any form.....and, before dear Creadyne jumps in and has his say, just ask S his opinion on the likes if Jack Nowell. I will go first....I am happy with him in my team. He makes Tries for others, is finding his feet and is not too small for International Rugby, nor is Christian Wade !!! Now ask S his opinion and see how indoctrinated I am by him....because that is the usual accusation levelled at me !!!  
GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
27 Aug 2014, 20:12
#36
27 Aug 2014, 20:12#36
 mate barry was a key player in winning a tri nations title... what did murray, mostert, jj, tsute, goosen, lambie, mbobo, serfontein and all your other flops done? bwahahahaha! yeah and your a coach who thinks he coulda been a bok. yoyr an egotistical vile little twonk. delusional. 
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
27 Aug 2014, 20:26
#37
27 Aug 2014, 20:26#37
Well Becs, I most certainly disagree with Dave about the merit of Jean's role in the try, not simply because, but because I have a different opinion about it. I think I quite nicely explained my view to him while he was using terms like "talking sh*t" and "bloody laughable" to talk to me. So I think a little jibe at his expense is in order, why not? I'd do that with any of my friends as well.

What else have I been disagreeing with him about on this board that I should be agreeing with him about? I haven't really engaged with him much since coming back and I actually defended him a few days ago when someone called him as predator for watching boys' rugby .
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
27 Aug 2014, 20:32
#38
27 Aug 2014, 20:32#38
 Saffex
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 8875RE: What lies behind the failure of Serfontein/JJ
August 27, 2014, 16:18:55

I am not too bothered about whether Jean did or did not......the real issue is how kak he has been. I want Jan Serfontein at 12. I am prepared to bullshit and say anything to support my man Jan. 

Who called Fat Dave a predator? Ha Ha!
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Aug 2014, 22:05
#39
27 Aug 2014, 22:05#39
 Bozo don't fucking lie Barry never came close to doing anything he was fucking useless. Had ZERO ability with ball in hand,  he was about as creative as a dead fish.
Who the fuck is mostert you thick prick?
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Aug 2014, 22:06
#40
27 Aug 2014, 22:06#40
 Sharktw at grow up you cunt
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