What price Smith and Kallis

There is no doubt Amla and Steyn....even Morkel who is bowling mostly in the mid 130s...are on an elevator going down. But the players who replaced the old giants are midgets. As are their likely replacements.
The fact that the old guys are fading does not mean there are new guys who can replace them. Same is true for our rugby...things look bleak.

Moz, Morkel knowing they were down to two seamers probably conserved energy. The bowling attack in the circumstances did well.

 I like Morkel, but he seems to have lost 5 kph. Even in the first innings when Steyn was still viable he hardly ever cracked 140. 

This is a team in total crisis.

 I agree. Kepler wessels focused on leadership. I dont think Amla is cutting it. That said its all a mess.A guy who doesnt want to be captain is captain. He is world class player but has gone down the drain. Take the pressure off him and let's get him scoring runs!
Then to get Bavuma in De Kock is dropped and AB burdened with playing wickie.Faf is off form. Duminy is not cutting it. The lack of a class allrounder is also a significant problem.
Given the racist anc policies our rugby is being driven into the ground. 6 Super sides dispite so much of our talent overseas. Then the big Bok quota requirements. I just hope the IRB steps in and bans the Boks but given the hypocrisy at play chances are nothing will be either said or done about race based selections. At least ou warped DUD and plump pie will be happy with the racist approach taken .

 
I hope your not suggesting that we keep the old guard on just for the sake of keeping the youngsters out?



 

Mozart is all agog about the old guard - ut when they retired they were on the downward slide at a rapid pace.   Kallis was a massive loss granted - but he did not cut it anymore and he realized it.   Smith since 2012 turned out to be a dead loss and that remained a fact as well.
The problem is the management is useless and Lorgat is a serious liability - a liar to boot.  Remember the SMS saga during the WC?   He is a politico - not a cricket CEO.
As long as the management is rotten - the team will be.   
         

Utter bullshit our rugby is healthier than ever in terms of young talent we just had an ignorant coach who could not see past his stupid nose hence the fact he is history.
We can't say the same for our cricket where only Rossouw, de Kock and Rabada look test material amongst the youngsters. Miller to a lesser extent as he has not been used at test level.
Elgar and v/Zyl in their late 20s are hardly youngsters.
But we don't have anything close to Amla, AB, Kallis, Steyn and Morkel coming through.
The heavily polluted quota system in cricket accounts for much of this. Look no further than the talented young de Bruin not making the SA A side - what a disgrace. Instead a few black lads made the side averaging in the 20s or 30's and we wonder why the A side got thrashed by England a week ago 

Saffex, reading what you just wrote I am reminded of something. Pollock, Smith, Kallis and AB were probably the best we've had since re-admission and they were all given chances early on. Kallis took a while to find his feet but paid heavy dividends in the end. AB was also not the best in the world.right away. Smith probably started with the biggest bang. Maybe that's the key, getting em in at 20/21 and giving them enough leeway to develope so that by the time they are 25 they almost seen it all. I always feel for guys like Alviro, Elgar and so on who only get selected in the wrong side of 25, are in and out of the team and only end up with a few years to make their mark. Come to think of it, many of the greats started very young. I also agree that we have a lot of talent youngsters coming through in the oval ball game. Just wish Jaco Kriel was 22 and not in his late twenties :(. I hope we get a good 5/6 years in green and gold from him. Still think the best moment for me of 2016 will be when Kriel scores his first Bok try and Meyer the pleb is sitting on his sofa at home watching Jaco celebrate.

 Disagree...we don't have a lot of talent in rugby or cricket. Not a patch on the greats we had in the previous generation. They can swop the Protea deck chairs as much as they wish, select all of Dave's young guns...this will remain a poor team. The great days are over, hopefully not forever

 Leadership and direction is missing in the Cricket side. Bring Biff Back. Not as captain, but get him involved in the team management.  One of the best cricket thinkers around. He can even help out with the bat for a few years still. He retired too soon.

 Mozart
We have more than enough talent in rugby - nut we have had a seriously deficient coach who stared himself blind at the has-beens and at a totally out-dated game plan without realizing the need for giving new players playing time to establish themselves in the team.
he finally woke up to reality when the most-experienced team ever fielded by the Springboks were beaten by the Japanese and changed the team by dropping some of the has-beens - but it was way too late to save his bacon.
It is only necessary to the subsequent atrocious performances of some of Meyer's favorites to see why they should not have been anywhere near the Springbok team.
Insofar as the cricket scenario there are serious problems since the BEE policy strictly applied by SA Cricket is not allowing for young players to come through and if they do they are ignored to keep to a strictly quota determined team.
Take for instance the case of De Bruin - h e is a far better batter than players they keep selecting because Bavuma or Duminy will have to go to cater for him.            
   

 The following article from the times-on-line:-
The consequence of SA hurtling from the world’s finest Test team to a bunch of losers since the World Cup was neatly captured in a moment beyond the boundary at Kingsmead on Wednesday.

JP Duminy and Morne Morkel were SA’s last pair. Victory for anyone but England was an outrageous notion. Drawing was about as likely as the rand being stronger than the pound in our lifetimes.

Steven Finn‚ as English as chicken tikka and lager‚ was stationed on the fine leg fence. Behind him a gaggle of boys and girls who five days previously wouldn’t have had a clue who he was held out miniature bats‚ notepads and pens with the precious expectancy only eight-year-olds can conjure. Between deliveries‚ Finn obliged them with careful respect.

Several of the kids wore replica SA one-day or T20 shirts. A year or two from now‚ if this nightmare keeps recurring‚ will they prefer any colours that are not green and gold.

Presently‚ Moeen Ali trapped Morne Morkel in front and‚ after a gratuitous referral to the electronic umpire‚ England’s win‚ by 241 runs‚ was complete.

The visitors had needed 101 minutes and 24 overs to take the last six wickets. In that time SA scored 38 runs.

The first two wickets went down before they had added a run to their overnight score‚ and the first of those scalps decided the match itself.

Moeen pitched the third delivery of the day on middle. It turned sharply and crashed into AB de Villiers’ pads as he leapt and tried to nudge the ball to leg all in one impossible motion.

Aleem Dar raised his finger‚ De Villiers reviewed‚ and the replay showed the ball would have clipped the outside third of leg stump. Not for the first time‚ “umpire’s call” was music to some ears and a curse to others.

Nothing else mattered‚ although JP Duminy stuck it out for an unbeaten 26 — only his third score of more than 20 in a dozen Test innings.

Finn nailing Dale Steyn’s off stump gave him a haul of 4-42‚ and Moeen’s 3-47 added up to match figures of 7-116.

With that‚ SA’s Test schedule for 2015 was done. Wednesday’s result marked their third consecutive defeat. For the first time since 1963‚ no pair of their batsmen shared a century stand in a calendar year. They have since played 249 Tests.

SA totalled more than 300 only once in 11 completed innings‚ against woeful West Indies at Newlands in January. They were dismissed for fewer than 200 six times and once — by India in Nagpur last month — for 79.

In 2015‚ SA played eight‚ won one‚ lost four and drew three. Those are not the numbers associated with the No1-ranked team. In 2012‚ when SA earned that accolade in England‚ they were unbeaten in 10 Tests and won half of them.

“Not scoring the runs has been our Achilles heel‚” Hashim Amla said. “It’s been very disappointing for everybody. It’s a confidence thing. We don’t know how long the corner is (before it is turned). We hope it’s very close by.”

Amla himself will be keener than most to get around that corner. He averages 15.00 in his last 10 Test innings. His overall average is 50.05.

“It’s about confidence‚” he said. “It’s about getting the runs. The thing is‚ you get confident once you get the runs. You can be doing everything in the nets‚ putting the work in behind the scenes‚ but it’s got to materialise into runs on the board — especially in the big games.”

Could SA’s crash be traced to the World Cup in March‚ when the suits undermined the team by meddling in the selection of the XI for the semi-final against New Zealand‚ which SA duly lost?

“You’ve got to look at the formats separately‚” Amla said. “The one-day team has been good since the World Cup. Beating India in India was a phenomenal effort for the one-day team and the T20 team.

“I wouldn’t say the World Cup was the start of anything. The Test team itself has changed over the last couple of years. There are a lot of youngsters in the side. The Test team is still finding something. It’s a developing team.”

An hour or so after all was done and said‚ Moeen‚ out of his whites but wearing England team gear‚ stepped across the boundary and headed for the middle.

He walked more slowly than usual‚ and for good reason. Busily toddling beside Moeen as fast as his two-year-old legs could carry him was Abu Bakr‚ his son.

The kid wore a white shirt and blue jeans. No green. No gold."

Please read the high-lighted comments with care. 

 Total lack of strong leadership. BBB!!!!

 We fail at age level, we fail in the S15, we ultimately fail in 7s...but still it's all HMs fault. This year it may pay to be a short seller in rugby and cricket.

 Why did we fail in most cases?   Your analysis is what one can call superficial and not based on any real analysis since you refuse to accept that it is the dud players our dud coaches select that is the reason for the failure.      

Absolute rubbish......the 15s of the past had nothing on Willie at his best. There is depth in Coetzee, Taute and Gelant.
JP and Habana rule on the wing....but in Kolbe and Senatla we have our own version of the Argie WC wing sensation. There is untried talent in Ulengo, v/Wyk, Sergel Petersen, Rhule, Sithole, Combrink and Jordaan.
At centre de Allende and Kriel have far more clout than Jean and Fourie had at the same age....its not even close. Add the depth of Serfontein, Vorster, Odendaal, Frans Venter, Mnisi, Dries Swanepoel, Esterhuizen and Rohan Janse v Rensburg....never have we had such class depth at centre.
Pollard is a better young 10 than we have had in years.....not to mention Lambie, Goosen du Preez and Jantjies. Compare these to useless Morne.
At 9 du Preez was class but in Faf de Klerk we have our own electric Aron Smith....not to mention attacking Hougaard and Reinach. 
Beast was good but Kitshoff is even better than Beast ever was....never have we had the depth in loose head as we do in Nyakane, Thomas du Toit, Kebble and Pierre Schoeman....not even close.
At 3 Malherbe proved better than average Jannie has ever been....add the likes of CJ and useless BJ. Same can be said of Marcel v/d Merwe. Add the depth of Coenie, Koch and Wilco Louw.
At 2 Bismark and Strauss rule but in Marx we have another Bismark. And what of Akkers of the Lions.
Bakkies and Vic were good but Etzebeth and Lood are better but what of the depth behind them. Never have we had so many class young locks like Willemse, Jacques du Plessis, PSDT, Lewies, Ruan Botha, Kleyn, Erasmus, RG Snyman and Jenkins.
We have had some good loosies but the current crop are just as good and there is depth to burn in Jaco Kriel, Coetzee, Arno Botha, CJ, Elstadt, v/d Walt, Kolisi, Carr, Notshe, Labs, Liebenberg, Oupa and the du Preez twins.
We have more class young talent than I have ever seen in all the time I have followed the game. You have to be one utterly useless coach to not take this group of talent to the number one spot in the game.
Geez your options are endless - take your pick:
15. Willie/ Kriel/ Coetzee/ Taute/ Gelant14. JP/ Ulengo/ Kobus v/Wyk/ Sithole/ Combrink/ Rhule/ Mjekevu 13. Kriel/ Vorster/ Swanepoel/ de Allende/ Esterhuizen/ Janse v Rensburg/ Pat Howard/ JJ/ Stokkies 12. de Allende/ Serfontein/ Odendaal/ Frans Venter/ Mnisi/ Frans Steyn/ Werner Kok11. Senatla/ Kolbe/ Sergel Petersen/ Jordaan/ Skosan 10. Pollard/ Jantjies/ Lambie/ Goosen/ du Preez 9. Hougaard/ Faf/ Reinach/ Groom/ v/Zyl/ Kolbe/ Bronco du Preez 1. Kitshoff/ Nyakane/ du Toit/ Kebble/ Pierre Schoeman 2. Bismark/ Strauss/ Marx/ Akkers/ Scara/ Mbonambi3. Malherbe/ Marcel v/d Merwe/ Coenie/ Koch/ Wilco Louw/ Engelbrecht4. Etzebeth/ Willemse/ Lood/ Jason Jenkins/ Kleyn 5. Lood/ PSDT/ Jacques du Plessis/ Etzebeth/ Ruan Botha/ Lewies/ Lorens Erasmus/ Snyman/ Carl Wegner  6. Jaco Kriel/ Kolisi/ Carr/ Labs/ Notshe/ Brussouw/ Kwagga 7. Jacques du Plessis/ Coetzee/ CJ Stander/ Elstadt/ v/d Walt/ du Preez x 2/ Oupa/ Schalk  8. Vermeulen/ Arno Botha/ CJ/ Mtembu/ Liebenberg/ Cook 
Mouth watering stuff

Oh boy another list of ordinary provincial players, with a very few internationally capable players. I mean just imagine this team one can compile from your list .... against the ABs:
Taute, Sithole, Swanepoel, Serfontein, Rhule, Jantjies, Hougaard
Du toit, Scara, Coenie, Kleyn, Stephanie, Kolisi, Jacques du Plessis,Arno Botha.
A frigging joke.

 Mozart
The frigging joke was the reputation players Meyer used as Springboks during his term of office.  They were there on reputation and with preciously little to show in their declining years as players.  
The chief among them was Matfield who should not have been anywhere near the Springbok team after his 2011 retirement.  His ridiculously poor show playing for Northampton proves it again.   Other "donkeys"  making complete fools of themselves at present for their clubs are Morne Steyn at Stade Francais and Jannie du Plessis - who cannot make the starting line-up of his club - as well as Willem Alberts who is a farce as well.  
Although Dave's list include players that are unsuitable and even struggling to make their Super 15 sides there are seriously talented players among those listed - much better players than those you so strongly supported when Meyer foolishly selected them for the Springboks,  
.    

 We could have the best 23 players in the world and we would not necessarily win.Reason being poor rugby style of play and strategy aided and abetted by bent down under refs.

Saffex any list of players that anybody ever comesvup with will be judged negatively by some and agreed upon by others. I thibk you've summarized some of the best options available. Of course no players are perfect but tour list does show that we have a lot of depth and should at least be a steady 2nd in the world. Beenis, i thibk Meyer's term was the final nail in the coffin of stamper rugby. Everyone I speak to ans even most on here agree that the time for change is now. I believe this why Coetzee won't be given the job.

 Taute, Sithole, Swanepoel, Serfontein, Rhule, Jantjies, Hougaard
Du toit, Scara, Coenie, Kleyn, Stephanie, Kolisi, Jacques du Plessis,Arno Botha.
Ag voeitog....sigh...here we go again. What a laugh!