Which Captain was or is the greatest player in their position

I asked a few days ago what your thoughts were on some of the most gifted players that never reached their full potential. 

So an interesting topic came up on whether Richie Mcccaw was the greatest flanker of his time. 

My opinion, no, was he even one of the greatest players, again, my opinion is no. But would I select him, my answer is yes. 

There has been a raft of iconic captains over the years and every time you see some website pick their greatest team of a decade or even ever and these names always pop up, but then I look at these players and I ask myself, why would you pick them when we had player x or y that was better. In SA we had Francious Pienaar, John Smit and Syia Kolisi. There were also Jean De Villiers and Victor Matfield, not to mention Eben Etzebeth. 

But as captains their win records weren't that great, maybe Jean De Villiers and John Smit had a pretty decent win record as captains but their form started to go down and by 2015 Damian De Allende was way better than Jean. 

Then we have form captains like Sean Fitzpatrick that would never make my team. Great bloke, but just moaned a lot. 

Martin Johnson, never rated him as a lock but definitely had the mental edge over his opponents. 

But one thing I do recognise when looking back at these players, the teams seem to implode and lose shape when these captains were not on the field. Francious Pienaar got injured in one game when the boks were leading and they end up losing. John Smit got slammed on the ground by Thorn and the boks lost. 

What is your thoughts, these captains may not be the best players ever but are their leadership with the sacrifice over a better player. 

Don't forget John Smit vs Bismarck

Jean was better than Damian in 2015. The Damian of 2015 was far, far worse than he is today. He tanked several tests in 2015 singlehandedly. Losing Jean was a massive loss in the NZ semi-final. You are correct that some players have a galvanizing presence. Butch was another, though not captain, so too Schalk. When I look at past Bok teams in comparison to this one, I am astounded by how few leaders we have in our squad. Aside from Eben, we don't have one good candidate for a leader in the entire squad. 

Kollisi is not bad at all....did a great job against England.....he is our captain now.

Kolle is cool as is DdA...not witbout fault,  but not nearly as useless as some would lead on.

John Eales wasn't shabby with two World Cups.

Great goalkicker too. 

Only Antoine Du  Pont could legitimately claim to be the best in his position.

Kolisi and Damian are Vodacom Cup quality. Neither has leadership ability. 

So here goes factual info on De Villiers,   being  better than De Allende in 2015,   So how many amtches did Jean play in 2015?   He started in 3 Matches  - ie the RC match in Durban in 2015 - the match was lost by the Springboks due to and organization and of under-performance by key players - Jean was one of the latter.   His next starting match was in the Japan Fiasco in the 2015 WC - another loss caused by the experienced players in the team of - Jean being one of those.  His first match was against  SAMOA where he picked up the injury that letd to his retirement.   

Was Jean in the three matches better than anybody - the unfortunate answer is no he was not. .         

I always admired De Villiers ever since I saw him play for WP vs the Griquas in 2003 and to my mind he was an excellent player - whether used on the wing or as a center.  he indeed was a player with multi-position tendencies.   He could play in both center positions and wing and that shows real class player with thinking ability.    

However, like most players nowadays De Villiers's career was marred by injuries,   It happened in most WC series and then he was pushed around by the selectors.   De Villiers as Dave stated was a different player from other centers we had since re-admission to international rugby in 1992 and did not really believe in the dead backline rugby played for years by a variety of coaches - whose ideas about backline play consisted of zero backline attacking options.    As Mozart once stated years ago - flyhalves  should be kickers with 90% of the requirements of a flyhalf is the ability to kick balls.   That reduces backline players to defense only with no real attacking abilities,   The Springboks for years suffered of reduced backline option play and it did not help insofar as De Villiers is concerned.   I for years called it the dead backline syndrome.   That situation covered virtually the whole career of De Villiers and many of his tries came from ball interceptions and not backline attacking play.   and one wonders what he would be as a center or wing if the dead backline situation was not used by coaches.               

kingcorn, that's absolute rubbish about Richie McCaw. He was not only the greatest flanker of his generation, he's competing with Fergus Slattery, Jean-Pierre Rives and Michael Jones as the greatest opensider of all time.

McCaw's captaincy skills were a relatively insignicant bonus compared to his playing ability, but easily one of the captains who was also the best player in his position.

Personally, I'd always choose my best XV and then decide on a captain, but when it comes to players selected ahead of better players because they're good captains, then Francois Pienaar and John Smit are the obvious candidates who you've mentioned, but I'd add two:

Agustin Creevy, an inspirational leader who kept Julian Montoya out of the Pumas starting XV for so long and Alun-Wyn Jones who captained Wales and the Lions when he was well past his best.

McCaw wouldn't crack the top 20 flanks of all time. Not even close. He wouldn't even make a realistic top 50. 

Rooinek

Selection of captains are not always based on payer performances.   I cannot think of any Springbok captain whose performances was above the norm for their positions in the team since 1992 - the one coming nearest was Teichman.   Once has to go back to the 1930's and players like Danie Craven whose performances equaled his captaincy skills - and after him Dawie de Villiers and Morne du Plessis to get that type of situation.   the one who came nearest to achieve that was     Teichman.      

Smit was the best hooker. It was media pressure that tried to agitate a change. Smit was never outplayed by another Bok hooker in all his years in the team. 

Notshe... all time great Bok. 

Jones -  Lock, Wales

Smit - Hooker, Springbok

Teichman - #8, Springbok

That's not a bad call AJH. I'd have John Eales with Victor Matfield at lock though. 

l'Grande Merde

Was Smit the best hooker or was he a prop that he played later on.   He was a useless prop in any event and in his prime Bismark was a better hooker than Smit - who in 2009 and later joined Fat Fransie in the fatness stake race.       

l'Grande Merde

Waas Smit the best hooker or was he a prop that he played later on.   He was a useless prop in any event and in his prime Bismark was a better hooker than Smith - who in 2009 and later joined Fat Fransie in the fatness stake race.       

Why are the angry, foul-mouthed posters always the most ignorant? 

Well, coming from you, that's reassuring to hear. 

I know Saffex will agree with me that Will Carling was a great Captain and Centre 

You might find this one interesting Becs: https://www.ruckersforum.com/forum/deus-ex-lemur/some-centre-stats--/41023

Do note Jean De Villiers and Damian De Allende. 

If McCaw had played for Scotland you wouldn’t even remember his name. Not fast, not strong….shrewd. But that only worked in the context of a very competitive team. Schalk Burger was much better as a pure flank.

Deus Ex Lemur…..it was a bit of a private joke between myself and Saffex. 

Oh, I see. You two are exclusive. 

Rooi's mask slipping more every day...might just as well comfess all his sins....

More like his bra. I'm sure Mozart could spare a few dollars to help the lass out.