Who could possibly want Jantjies to play Bok 10.

This guy bottled out of taking two high kicks...shortly after his botched kickoff and then he chickened out of taking Aplon's hoist. He got run over time and again. Threw away good possession with the Lions 10 metres out....and then his obvious inside step led to being monstered and  the crucial turnover which decided the game. Fittingly the game ended with him dropping a pass.

Why would you want to put this guy in the Bok team.....based on what? Those stupid inside  passes that a test team would anticipate and exploit? Those chip kicks? This guy is the new Rose....a pathetic tackler and not much guts.

Heineke was right to leave him firmly attached to the bench.

So it was all Jantjes fault eh Moz? You are not picking on poor jantjes by any chance?

What did you make of the scrums Malherbe was shunted around a bit but clealry he ehas had the flue and the whole pack was probably at sixes and sevens. Things got a bit better later in the game.

The Stormers were totally disrupted with changes....have been all season. I thought de Jonghhad a great game. It was nice to see van Heerden score....all this lad needs is a bit of confidence. Bekker looked forceful, despite the layoff....and Fourie was busy. Grant may now be the best kicker on the planet.

For the Lions I thought Minnie showed why you need a fetcher, and van der Merwe did a mountain of work. Strauss tried hard, and scored a weird try. But his penchant for losing the ball in contact....and the way Liebenburg ran right over him, blotted the copy book.

As to your question....I'd say no Jantjies didn't do it by himself.....but he was probably the Stormers best asset.

Jantjies has been what he was during the whole of Super 15 - terrible when he was under pressure.   And where he has shown some brilliance at times during Super 15 - today he was pathetic.   I always wondered about his performances - when this happened in Super 15 what will happen on international level?    I cannot see that he would be of any use in the Sprinbok team - other than a potential disaster.

He did mnot lose the game on his own and the Lion forwards were in fact very good - he got a lot of very good balls, but he did nothing of note. 

Agree about being at sixesand sevens. Van der heever nees work done on his mental side. he has a great deal to offer.

Cheetahs also at sixes and sevens and  loss of WP Nel and Coenie has been huge.

I note that peacock did zip for the Force this morning and Brussouw is not exactly setting the world alight for Cheetahs.

Case seems to be going against you Moz.

@moz

Blaming Elton is very short sighted.

He is a far better player than Grant and Wiaan Smit.

He is a much better attacking option than Morne and his general play is on par with Lambie.

Only Goosen could be bracketed as a better all round flyhalf.

His "Stupid inside passes" are a part of a disorientated Lions game plan...

Remember Andre Pretorius doing it quite a lot as well.

Problem is, there often isnt much on, on his outside!

His kicking game is pretty good.

He stands down to no one on defense

His attacking game will shine with a hald decent pack, 9 and 12!

Lets not judge him until he has an opportunity to prove himself with a decent surrounding!

Look ad Doppies! Guarenteed he would have been a Bok if he played for the Bulls!

Same can be said for Mapoe!

Its quite sad when a player can't play to his potential due to being in an inferior team.

I say lets  give him a run of 10 tests... starting at the end of the year and going into the 2013 Rugby Championship....

If he doesnt cut the grade... then fair enough... he aint good enough.

But until then, i think we should all reserve proper judgement!

He'd also be taken a lot more seriously if he just cut his dumb hair properly!

Agree about being at sixesand sevens. Van der Heever nees work done on his mental side. He has a great deal to offer.

Cheetahs also at sixes and sevens and  loss of WP Nel and Coenie has been huge.

I note that peacock did zip for the Force this morning and Brussouw is not exactly setting the world alight for Cheetahs.

Case seems to be going against you Moz.

Flash.... Jantjies misses a third of his tackles....I don't know why you think he is a good defender. Bekker for one, ran right through him today.

As for his attacking ability....for a flyhalf it starts with vision. Ebersohn demonstrated that today....he saw the open spaces behind the Bools pack. Jantjies found no way to crack the Stormers defence. The commentators made a point about him taking the ball flat. Sure, but unlike a Honnibal for example, he never took  contact. He shovelled a last second pass to his centre, who then got knocked back because the defender was on top of him.

Jantjies has a good boot, although untested under test pressure. That's about all I can see that's positive. And he bottled out not taking those high balls.

 Jantjies was a breath of fresh air, what a talent this kid is - he just has such a wonderful feel for the game. Would love to see Jantjies as the Bok 10. I'd have Jantjies with his hands tied behind his back before playing the boring Morne at 10.

Jantjies is just pure class, silky skills, runs onto the ball well and puts people into space with his passing.

 Beeno if you had been listening you would have picked up that Malherbe should not have played, the guy has flu, but good old Coetzee tends to push his players, much like he did with Bekker

Puts people into head collisions more likely and is too chicken to take a high ball. Your kind of player.

 No he has a brilliant touch and a great feel for the game - in fact he is the most gifted player in SA when it comes to feel and touch. The best backs in SA would absolutely thrive in his company - how you can frown on that talent is beyond me - smacks of conservatism.

One thing Jantjies is not, is chicken. He used to be suspect in defence, I dont recall a single miss tackle this season. This kid is pure class and the sooner we have him and Goosen as our pivots the better. I'd alternate them, but I suspect Jantjies is the more gifted, Goosen the more measured

Two up and unders bounced right in front of him.....pure cowardice.

 Yeah right, if he was a coward we would see all those forwards run right over him. The kid is a breath of fresh air and pure class. If he had played against England we probably would have won those tests by 20 points - with the likes of Frans and co having a field day in his company

Sorry Saf, have to agree with Moz. You don't let the ball bounce, you go up high for an up and under. Look at the way Joe and Aplon does it. Jantjies was too chicken to do it, same goes for the lions 15 as well. Pansies!

 I dont recall these incidents nor do I care that much - they hardly detract from what he offers as a 10. Compare that to the sterile, boring, ponderous stuff Morne provides - its chalk and cheese. Give me Jantjies flair and creativity any day. Given the way he plays the game, mistakes will be made ala Cooper and Cruden - but its beautiful to watch when on song for 95% of the time.

You are either a conservative and favour the Morne crap or free spirited and embrace the Jantjies approach - can you tell what side of the fence I sit?

Conservative versus a free spirit? Or a realist versus somebody who believes in fantasies.

 Are you saying the same about Oz with Cooper and NZ with Cruden?

Yes absolutely I'd say the same about Cooper. He cost Oz a shot at the RWC. Played like a coward. Cruden is a much more admirable young chap, with guts to come back from serious set backs. He is a more attacking oriented flyhalf than let's say Grant or Steyn. I'm not sure I'd pick him ahead of Steyn for a tight test....that depends on a whole bunch of things. But I would have no hesitation in playing him.....Cooper and Jantjies are just Earl Rose types, talented, but lacking core resolve. They would never make my team.

Saffex

I initally thought that Jantjies would make the grade - but I think that there is something amiss In his case.   In the team environment he played in Super 15,where his forwards was not really performing - he showed some deficiencies - but that I attributed to his forwards giving him bad balls and putting him on the back foot.   Yesterday the Lions forwards played extremely well and he got some really good balls to show his talent.    I was severly disappointed in what he managed to do with those balls.

I saw serious deficiencies in his play yesterday especially with regard to defence and attack.   He himself should have been more prominent in especially attacking play - but he was not at all.    I think we may have another Earl Rose here - lots of promise and nothing more.    There are some players who cannot make the step up from CC to Super 15 and from Super 15 to international level.   Jantjies thus far this year showed very little in Super 15 - maybe taking into account the team environment in which he played -  and I would not compare him with Cooper and Cruden.    

When he came into the Queensland and Wallaby teams Cooper was like a breath of fresh air - he played well as a strong runner with the ball and distributed the ball well - his kicking was also excellent.   However - Cooper this year was not really the tops - I believe the opposition worked out his way of play and took counter-measures.    In the few games he played at Super 15 this year he can as best be decribed as average.    

Cruden is pure class and showed it in the one test he played.   He took tackles and his off-loads was brilliant - leading to three of the first four tries scored by the AB's against the Irish.    However, he then left the field and the Irish on the day would not have beaten Georgia - so maybe he showed classs against a sub-par opposition.   However, I looked at his off-loads and his attacking ability and said that he certainly is the replacement for Carter in the AB team.

Taking into account the passing game yesterday - there were far too many hosiptal passes made to his backline and the Stormers had no problems with the back line attacking ability of the Lions.    My contention was that Jantjies had a desperately poor game yesterday.   As you said repeatedly - Jantjies has massive potentital - but the problem is to tranlate the potential to implementation.    Yesterday he had an excellent opportunity against a team with really huge problems in virtually all Departments and he made a mess of it.

Insofar as Malherbe is concerned I was disappointed in what I saw of him yesterday - but I think this may have to do with the team composition.   I could not believe the team that the Stormers were forced into yesterday through injuries, resting of players and illness.   If they were playing other teams with that combination - they would have been beaten easily.    In that environment it is not really jsutified to blame on player for problems in the forwards and I do not dount that Malherbe will recover and play like he did against the Bulls - when he was brilliant.

Be it as it may - the real topic is Jantjies and that he was extremely disappointing cannot be argued away.  

Moz thats the difference between us, you would go conservative and we would continue to languish at 3 in the world rankings, while I would go with the free spirited youngsters, which would see the likes of Jantjies, Goosen, Mvovo, Taute, Jordaan, JJ, Serfontein, Kitshoff, Coenie, Steph du Toit, Kolisi, J.Strauss, CJ Stander and Elstadt joining the likes of other youngsters like Frans, Hougaard, JP, Beast, Etzebeth, Brussouw and Coetzee.........time to move on and get with the times, starting with some real clout at 10

Saffex

I am not being conservative and there is a number of players mentioned by you that I would pick for the Springbok team - unfortunately I do not rate Jantjies as highly as you do - but the others mentioned by you have massive potential.   I would even add to your list by supporting Howard - and would suggest Taute as full back.   Francois Steyn is a definite for 12 for at least the next five years - and I would bring in Jordan at 13 - am a big fan of his - maybe its because he plays for the Sharks.   He will be in the team to play the Bulls  on Saturday - so  lets see what happens.    

I do not really rate Krichner highly - so we need another full back and my definite preference would be Lambie and Taute - the latter definitely on attack.

Insofar as the youngsters is concerned - what do you know about Jordaan's younger brother - all i know he is captaining the Grey College team and is apparently brilliant at flyhalf or inside center.   Know anything more about him?   Pollard and young Jordaan seemingly will have a big say in years to come. 

You do not pick a team on potential, you pick a team on form and experience and then phase potential into the team very slowly, to get a measure of their mettle. Putting all the potential in at once will be disastrous
and would onlysquash the potential ala Gaffie.

Goosen, Etzebeth, Coetzee, Kitshoff,  have great potential. I like Jordaan as well.

Taute is a fullback and not a centre.....and probably about our fourth best. Mvovo is totally dominated when he meets the likes of Ioane and the top NZ wings....which we have seen against the Saders for example. JJ is a wing, not a centre, but couldn't stop Willie le Roux in spite having the angle on him. Steph du Toit is for next year.....and Elstadt, Stander and Kolisi may be just below test class. Although Kolisi is a possibility.

Strauss is a poor defender as Liebenburg showed yesterday and can't hang onto the ball in collisions.

Shame and poor Jantjies....if we were at the crucial stage of an AB test and they lofted an up and under in his direction....would he step forward and take it, or bottle out like yesterday? But who can blame him, in spite of the padded stats he is a small chappie.....and obviously doesn't have the lion heart of an Aplon.

Put these guys all into one team and you wouldn't have a mixed grill....you'd have a mess.

 Jantjies has not missed a singel tackle this season???????? Wow, that is a broad statement, don't you think?

I don't think so. These are his tackle stats (Tackles made/missed)

Crusaders 1/0 (sub)

Cheetahs 4/0

Brumbies 7/2

Chiefs 2/4

Bulls 7/3

Reds 5/4

Force 11/3

Sharks 5/1

Stormers 10/1

Cheetahs 7/2

Hurricanes 10/2

Blues 8/1

That is 18 missed tackles that was missed, so to speak. LOL.

Moz your take on our youny players is a load of old crap to put it politely. If you knew your stuff you would realise that Taute has played 13 throughout his school career and for the Baby Boks for 2 seasons as is currently playing there for the Lions - so bang goes that theory.

Last I checked JJ was playing 13,so yet again a load of bull on your part, last I checked Meyer has him as a centre. Moz why not try state the facts regarding JJ's chasing le Roux down - if you were honest enough you would not even bring up that chase for in fact it exposed le Roux in the speed stakes.

As for Mvovo the take that he melts against good opposition is hogwash.Tell that to the Poms with that great try he scored against him, not to mention the gas he has shown this season.

Strauss is huge in every game and as Tinus Delport rightly observes, this guy should be playing for a better side as his talents are wasted at the Lions. Kolisi, Elstadt and CJ are better loosies than any of the Poms test loosies - all class acts.

Jantjies on Sat showed the touches that our Bok pivot is missing - the kid is in a different class to the ponderous Morne.

But Moz you stick with the conservative and old and see where that gets us. Hell if you had your way, my guess is the Boks would have Joubert at 13, BJ at 3, Muller at 4, Schalk at 6, Joe at 8 and Morne at 10

My team of 15. Lambie 14. JP 13. Taute 12. Frans 11. Mvovo 10. Goosen 9. Hougaard 1. Beast 2. Bismark 3. Coenie 4. Etzebeth 5. Bekker 6. Brussouw 7. Elstadt 8. Spies 16. v/Zyl 17. JJ 18. Whitehead 19. Kitshoff 20. Strauss 21. Steph du Toit 22. Coetzee would beat the AB's and Oz, Meyers team wont unless a few changes are made starting with the useless 10.

Draad I dont buy this whole experience thing, look where it got us against and average England side at home. Besides we have enough experience in JP, Frans, Hougaard, Beast, Bismark, Bekker, Brussouw and Spies to form the core of the side - thats more than half the side, plus Lambie has had a good few tests already

Nope Mike Jantjies is a class act and why on earth would I waste Taute at 15, when we have Lambie to play 15 - hoiw stupid that would be, especially considering he has played all his schoolboy and Baby Bok rugby at 13 and is currently play there for the Lions. As Mitchell said - Taute would make a good 15, but will make a great 13.

I am a big Howard fan but his injury got in the way of us seeing exactly what he has to offer. He needs to be playing Super rugby next season - sadly I cant see Coetzee playing this talented guy ahead of wee de Jongh

Saffex

You keep on saying Jantjies is a class act - I also thought he could go places - but throughout this year in Super 15 he showed very little.   A class act would produce more than goalkicking and strategic kicking - it should come out in all parts of his game.   I was severly disappointed in him in respect of all games this year.

Let me ask you - take yesterdays game as an example.  Where did he show his class?   Did his class act lead to any of the two tries of the Lions?   Was his kickintg effective?   Was he a game breaker?   I saw nothing that would make me say to the opposition - we have a champion here.   For me a youngster like Pollard showed more under pressure in the Junior WC than Jantjies did in all Super 15 matches this year.

One more thing - you know I do not rate Morne as a flyhalf - his whole game is centered around his kicking ability, which went awry against the Lions and in Super 15 this year.   He has no ability to distribute balls to his backline and I do not believe I ever saw an effective off-load of a ball by him in a tackle situation.   To my mind he is NOT a top class flyhalf - as a matter of fact he is very average and a problem in the Springbok team. 

I looked at the flyhalf play yesterday and Grant was better in all phases of the game - better at kicking at goal, better in attacking play through good ball distibution  (taking into account the poor balls he often received from the scrummie) and better in defence.   To add up - I would rather play Goosen at flhalf - followed by Grant, Pollard and Jantjies, than Morne Steyn, but Jantjies is not even a realistic  consideration insofar as I am concerned 

 Sometimes viewing younger players can be difficult because it is expected they will improve their game in time, also until they have played at a higher level we cant see all of their weaknesses truely exposed. 

However Jantjies may be the deal- he does have some flashes where he is world class. Would have been goog to give him a chance to prove or dissprove his ability in the 3rd test instead of Morne.

 Sometimes viewing younger players can be difficult because it is expected they will improve their game in time, also until they have played at a higher level we cant see all of their weaknesses truely exposed. 

However Jantjies may be the deal- he does have some flashes where he is world class. Would have been goog to give him a chance to prove or dissprove his ability in the 3rd test instead of Morne.

He has flashes.....yep that sums it up. When he can control a whole game, make the right choices and defend his channel, he may be ready for test rugby. Flashes....hahahaha!

Saffex

Did Coetzee play Malherbe yesterday - while he was ill with flue?   That could be mortal and Coetzee should be fired for that.    It could cause major heart problems - hence my comments on the issue.

Saff, you carry on and on about Jantjes hands and touches, but that is just a very small part of what a 10 needs to have in his arsenal. His defence for example, IS suspect, so much so, that if you compare his defensive stats with those of your pet hate Morne, Jantjes is found wanting. Flair is a good thing, but, and I think I will have plenty of support from the other bloggers on the forum here, he is just not consistant enough. Sure he has moments of brilliance, but it is his lack of ability to be reliable in ALL facets of his game for a large percentage of the time that make him a liability. He is not the kind of player you want in your team in a must win Tri Nations game.

 Regarding Jantjies as #10.

Yes at least two people want to see him wear the #10

Saffex and Zuma.

Sorry not Springbok standard.

 Shouldn't even consider Jantjies with Grant still as an option.

Bluebok, disagree - if we are to move on and challenge for the top spot, we need to move on from a sterile pivot like Morne. Jantjies is consistent enough in a struggling Lions side so would thrive in the Bok environment. His main weapon is flair and creativity, but he also has a good boot on him and his defence has improved in a big way. There is no way in hell Morne is a better or worse defender than Jantjies.

My choice of 10 would be Goosen, with Jantjies as the back-up.......but saying that Jantjies in great company might just be the answer. I'd enjoy trying them both - they will be such a breath of fresh air after the average Morne - Bok rugby will not know what has hit it

Saffex

Come now - my friend.  I asked straight questions about where Jantjies showed class on Saturday and you did not anwer.   Class was the wide pass  by Grant to Van den Heever that lead to the third try of the Stormers - not anything produced by Jantjies.

On present form Jantjies has a long way to go before he can realistically be considered as a fly half.   He has to get to a decent playing environment - a team stronger than the pathetic Lions - and pro9ve himself there - befor he can be considered as a Springbok.   I am afraid at this stage he is an Earl Rose replica.

Mike he showed his class and touches throughout the game - do yourself a favour and go watch the game again and learn

Saffex

I watched that game three times.   The only thing that Jantjies did was flat passes by him - rather too late to be effective and since some of those were slow - they lead to nothing, but a hard tackle on the receiving players.   The commentators in fact mentioned the flat passes.   Grant on the other hand made two very clever passes that lead to tries by the recipient.     On the day Grant definitely outplayed Jantjies in all departments of the game.    By the way - flat passes could work effectively - but not repeatedly allowing the opposing team to take counter-measures.     That while Grant often got poor balls and Jantjies good ones.

One other thing - on three occassions Jantjies got the ball without pessure in his own 22 and kicked the ball up-field and in the field of play - allowing the Stormers the opportunity to counter-attack.

Let me put it bluntly - I see such kicks as poor, they were not "up and unders" that put pressure on the opposing players at all and I regard such kicks as negative in the extreme - since it allows for the opposing team attacking opprtunities.    This was one of Steyn's poor displays in the Lions tests - which I rated as aimless kicks    Talking of kicking - Jantjies have a tendency to kick and stand still - with another single player to follow up the kick - thus putting most of his side off-side if they try and do anything.   Not really effective.     

All the above let to my very unfavourable comments on Jantjies' display on Saturday