DEDenny
Captain12,893 posts
20 Nov 2016, 10:20#1
Coetzee now that SARU is forced to get rid of him? There are no half decent coaches in the country and SARU won't appoint a foreign coach not that a decent foreign coach would be silly enough to be interested. About the only hope might be with Jake White...love him or hate him.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 Nov 2016, 11:58#2
I'd rather have Rassie than Jake, but that's not the way to go. Deans would do great for the Boks.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Nov 2016, 12:15#3
Deans did a very good job for the Barbarians. It was amazing how he managed tio improve the players from SA he had available and that include Akker van der Merwe, Du Preez and Janse van Rensburg and that only in a few days he had them available.
Coetzee was always witless as a coach - both for the 2007 WC assistant job (White was forced to bring in Eddie Jones to help out) and as Stormers coach - bad news that one.
The matter is of real concern. Locally there are three possibilities - Erasmus, Franco Smith and Ackermann - and I would say the best candidate would be Erasmus.
Foreign - I would say Deans and Plumtree.
However, the idea of selecting players based on race should be eliminated and the concentration should be on bringing through deserving players on lower level than to artificially put them into the Springbok team prematurely.
Of the present crowd of BEE players the following have all failed badly:-
Habana, Pietersen, Mapoe, Jantjies, Paige, Carr and Mohoje.
The following were average to poor:-
Nyakane, Mbonambi, Ntubeni, Kolisi
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
20 Nov 2016, 12:32#4
Mike, again, have any white players been good under Coetzee?
Everyone has been jsut as bad as everyone else.
Mahoje, Carr and Kolisi were bad, Roux, Alberts and PSTD when he played as a loosie were just as bad.
Jantjies was poor, Steyn and Lambie were too.
Mbonambi was bad and Strauss has been nothing short of atrocious.
Most of the wingers are non-whites but Hougard and co were not much better.
Faf started well but is currently only marginally better than Paige, which kinda says it all.
Same goes for the props.
I'm obviously not in support of BEE selections but my belief is that the coaching needs to be sorted out long before we discuss players.
Nobody has been good this season becauese the coaching made it impossible to get the best out of anyone. So sure, let's do away with BEE but let's not jsut assume that because players of color are in the team that they are all poor.
Obviously Paige, JDJ and some others are not test standard but guys like Kolisi and Carr might be. Put those two into a NZ or Lions setup and my guess is they'll do a lot better than they have under Coetzee who they've spent most of their careers playing for.
Just my two cents.
20 Nov 2016, 12:33#5
Habana is passed his sell by date but don't be complete d00s and call him a bee player. He has been there on merit for the vast majority of his caps. He may even have scored one or two try's
20 Nov 2016, 13:25#6
Get Deans. . . . Get Ackermann . . . . . . . . . Get Plumtree . . . . . . . Get Mallet. Bullsh1t . It is not about going at and just getting this, that or the other coach. Why are we stuck with Coetzee and his clowns? Because nobody were falling over their feet to get the job.
Nobody in his right mind would touch the Boks with a barge pole. Not with the state that rugby in SA is in.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Nov 2016, 17:50#7
Deans did an awful job with Oz .....and the Boks are a harder challenge.
Mallett is ancient history... .his articles are inconsistent and hardly insightful. Leave him in reirement.
Rassie is a divisive man who has always tried to get away from the coal face. More of a staff man by nature.
White knows the players and how to motivate them. He would die for the job and give 100%. He is the obvious choice.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Nov 2016, 19:09#8
White buggers up badly at the Sharks ad has no future in SA rugby. He thoroughly deserves his own brand of what he thinks rugby is - the term is Jake-ball and he has no idea and had to get in Eddie Jones to help him out of Sh!t in 2007.
The type of game he plays was acceptable in 2007 and is no good in 2016 because like you he is stuck in 2007.
The game moved on - Jake and Mozart was stuck in the past.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Nov 2016, 21:23#9
No the game moved back....way back as we tried your formula and newbie players. I told you this would be the result, but no we needed the Combrinks, Allendes, Lomps and Stephanies. Flop city.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Nov 2016, 23:01#10
When did we try my formula when I said Kicking the ball away is a certain recipe for disaster. You claimed the Springboks this year played comprehensive rugby - which rarely happened. They played Jake-ball in the main and any variation was by accident.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Nov 2016, 23:01#11
When did we try my formula when I said Kicking the ball away is a certain recipe for disaster. You claimed the Springboks this year played comprehensive rugby - which rarely happened. They played Jake-ball in the main and any variation was by accident.
21 Nov 2016, 08:22#12
White brings division ... not unity.
Bringing him back would see the return of Fats and Pienaar and we all know that that's a huge step backward. We want to move forward. We want to embrace the future ... not look to the days of yesteryear for answers. There's none to be found there.
Besides ... his style of play is outdated. Best to keep this self-absorbed fool away from the Boks. They're in enough trouble as it is. The last thing they need is this tantrum throwing clown calling the shots.
It's always only about his needs. We need someone to think of the Bok for a change.
The only way forward is to appoint an experienced international coach and give him complete autonomy. The moment you dictate to him is the moment everything falls apart.
SA rugby has to step back and allow the coach room to do what he thinks is best.
I like the thought of Plum taking over, especially now that Jones, who I rate as the best coach on the planet, is lost to the Poms. Not the sodomising junkie on this board but the New Zealander that took the Hurricanes to a Super Rugby title.
I would not select any South Africans to the position and that includes Ackerman. We only have "ja broers" in the country and that's the last thing we need. We need fresh modern ideas and a man that stands up for what he wants. Not one who prostrates himself at every turn.
That is the only way we'll find ourselves on the road to recovery.
Such a pity we missed out on Jones.
MOMonsterBok
Club Pro442 posts
MOMonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
21 Nov 2016, 08:59#13
CC,I agree with the hope that your message bring. The reality however, is who in their right mind, even if available, would consider the role of the toothless Boks given the restraints of the position??
21 Nov 2016, 09:09#14
Exactly, Monster!!
We are so deep in the dwang it's just not funny.
The authorities are not going to relent. They will pursue their racist policies to the end, and to hell with the consequences.
I honestly don't know why we keep hanging on to what could be when we know in our hearts that the Boks are no more.
MOMonsterBok
Club Pro442 posts
MOMonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
21 Nov 2016, 09:42#15
In life one has to have hope,We hope Rooi comes back, we hope that Moz and Mike find a happy place, we also hope that they stop bickering about the same old stuff, but those wounds are deep.But most of all I hope that if this continues that the rugby following population is SA refrain from plonking their ars*s on any seat in a stadium in SA.
21 Nov 2016, 10:13#16
Well ... I do have hopes of Mozart finding his one and only grey cell.
I know it's a bit of a stretch ... but then again that's what hope is in the end, right?
21 Nov 2016, 10:25#17
Deans...please man, outside the Crusaders in Super Rugby he has achieved farkall! Here is the simple truth, no quality coach from anywhere, will want the job. Only "black" coaches will take the bait, because no matter what they do, they cannot be called racist. Anyone else is doomed to be labeled some sort of racist if Prickile Mbalula doesn't get his quotas.
In short, watch out for Chester Williams or someone of his ilk if Coetzee actually does get the boot.
21 Nov 2016, 11:01#19
A face saving drop goal in the dying minutes handed both SA and England a RWC title. . . .
DEDenny
Captain12,893 posts
21 Nov 2016, 11:59#21
A quick fix and with very few options, if any, I would say Jake.
21 Nov 2016, 12:28#22
Must agree DA.
There are matches where the result could go either way ... and then there are match that should be a forgone conclusion.
Top tier teams should never find themselves having to "save face" against minnows with a last minute drop.
The Bokke can't even get that right these days.
Let's face it ... the second half belonged to the Italians. They dominated us in every aspect.
Somehow I doubt we would have found ourselves in that situation had Jones been the coach.
21 Nov 2016, 13:49#24
Relax DA. I was just having a dig.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Nov 2016, 16:36#25
Not much difference in approach between Eddie Jones and Jake white. Everybody loves Eddie and hates Jake. But Jake hired Eddie precisely because he could coach within the White plan.
Ireland, England and now even Italy have had their best year in many following very much rhe approach we used from 2004 to 2007.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
21 Nov 2016, 17:41#27
Denny how can you not rate Ackerman given what he has done with the Lions with so little to work with?
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Nov 2016, 19:25#28
Mozart
With respect - I am flummoxed by your statement that there is not much difference between the Jake White and Eddie Jones approach followed that White hired White to coach within the White plan.
First the issue of playing style - there could never be a greater difference in what White requires and his knowledge of backline play is totally absent - in the case of Eddie Jones the core of his approach to the game centers around comprehensive rugby - inclusive of backline play.
Your other statement is contrary to the facts about the hiring of Eddie Jones in 2007 and factually not correct. Jake White realized that Coetzee as backline coach was useless and the hiring of Jones was done with a view to the development of the competitiveness of the Springbok backline where eh himself could not add any value.
Insofar as the missing game plan of Coetzee is concerned ever since Rassie left the Stormmers Coetzee religiously stayed with the Jake White game plan without support of a good backline coach and he was not successful - scoring of tries became virtual impossible. .
Jake White did not have an Eddie Jones to help him out at the Sharks = the backline went into serious decline and he was forced by the Sharks to resign basically because of the same problem partly because of problems with players in the squad and in the main because the standard of rugby - where Jake-Ball and not rugby was played. His contract with Montpellier is also not up for renewal because of similar problems.
I don't think the serious limitations of the White-Coetzee game plan will work and do not think he would add value to the Springbok team
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
21 Nov 2016, 19:30#29
Forget Jake White, average coach saved by Eddie Jones.....he should not be an option
DEDenny
Captain12,893 posts
22 Nov 2016, 09:19#30
Denny how can you not rate Ackerman given what he has done with the Lions with so little to work with?
A quick fix and with very few options, if any, I would say Jake.
The word is that Ackerman is happy to continue his learning curve with the Lions for the present. Jake has the experience, sure his style isn't everyone's cup of tea but he has the experience and will cut his cloth to the material in hand. Whatever you say about Jake you'd have to admit that he was smart enough to rope in Jones when he realized that Coetzee was a dope. Ackerman in the Bok seat right now could kill his national coaching career. What we need is someone who's capable of handling the job and it's pressures, for the short term White fits the bill.
22 Nov 2016, 11:01#31
I agree with Denny
I for one hope Ackerman stands his ground and stays with the Lions.
I do not rate him as an international coach... yet!! He's only been in the game for a short while and has much to learn. Let him do that at the Lions.
DEDenny
Captain12,893 posts
22 Nov 2016, 11:59#33
Put it this way, Coetzee is a hospital job with the Boks in an ICU.
Jake comes in as Mr.Fixit.....been there, done that.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Nov 2016, 12:11#34
Denny
I initially liked White when he was coach of the Springboks and universally a game plan of rugby was played where he felt at home in.
I also thought that in his time at the brumbies he would have widened his scope and initially welcomed his appointment by the Sharks. However, that admiration dried up when he was with the Sharks and his effective firing by the Sharks was fully justified. He then went to Montpellier and the same deficient game plan cost White a contract extension.
I am not sure he will be of help to the Springboks and have serious doubts about his appointment - unless he has a proper backline coach he would listen to - but would that happen?
23 Nov 2016, 08:18#35
So in saying that, Mike ... who would you have as Bok coach after Coetzee and his misfits?
Are you with Dave and his vote for Ackerman?
It's not exactly as if we have a flood of interested parties banging the door down.
There is more to it than just being the coach of the Boks.
We have a team on the slide ... possibly as low as 8th by years end. We have race issues causing havoc. Enforced quota targets by 2019. We have SARU insisting on selecting their own Bok management team ... their own assistant coaches ... dictating to you every step of the way.
We need someone strong ... someone outspoken ... someone with a passion for the Bok. Someone the public ... the fan can back in the media ... someone to fight for our cause ... and to be honest I don't think Ackerman has the balls to stand up against adversity like that.
Not that I think Jake has the balls either. He's so hat in hand these days. Dismissed at the Sharks and now at Montpelier. His confidence is low. Does he have the strength to come out for round 2? The only thing going for him is that he's been there before and he seems willing enough.
I dunno, Mike. It's a mess. The only way a coach will be successful here is if there are policy changes ... and I can't see that happening. The government has tightened their grip on a white dominated sport. Why would they relent now? I suspect the fight has already been lost.
DEDenny
Captain12,893 posts
23 Nov 2016, 14:56#36
There's no worse coaching job on the planet....now more-so than ever before. Ackerman would be drinking from the poison chalice if he took on the job.
sharkbok
Captain23,262 posts
sharkbokCaptain23,262 posts
23 Nov 2016, 17:43#38
I have read articles during the week with comments from the Saru and Coetzee- and I believe that Coetzee will remain in the position.
He has two targets- winning and transformation. So far his transformation stats are looking better than his winning ones. He is doing better in transformation than Meyer was.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Nov 2016, 19:09#39
Sharkbok
The two things do not go hand-in-hand - transformation will soon have SA rated at 10 and the sponsors will run for cover. That will destroy rugby in SA and I am afraid that is where we are indeed heading.
DEDenny
Captain12,893 posts
24 Nov 2016, 00:00#40
By my count and not including De Allende there were 3 POC in the starting lineup of the England Test. I don't know how many were in the starting lineup against Italy because by then I'd lost all interest. My point is that I think it's a bit rich and opportunist to blame Transformation policy as the single biggest reason for the demise of the Boks.
Put it this way, if the Boks were an all white team the results would be no different.
