Who should be the Bok 10?

As we close in on the June tests there is still no clear Bok 10 putting up his hand. Pollard is injured...again, but even before the injury he did not look like a serious contender. The rest are maybe's, could be's and have been's. While we may still debate the captaincy, at least there are couple of solid candiates. For me, there are no solid candidates for Flyhalf. Lambie never was, Jantjies has proved he does not have what it takes under pressure. Bosch is too inexperienced and probably too small (But has great talent), Blommetjies is barely SR level, Du Preez and Du Plessis are untested and now that the Stormers are under pressure, they are no longer looking like stars. I haven't watched a Kings game all year, so i can't comment on their 10, but I doubt he is the answer.   

Lionel Cronje Spend a good couple of seasons at the stormers. Did well when not injured for them. Has transformed the King's. He is brave, good size, fantastic distribution to get the smaller Kings player into the gap. My choice

 
So I take it you have no suggestions of your own then?

Hahaha. Pushed enter before I had typed my post. 

As I stated KC, I have not watched a Kings game all year, so I can't really comment. CC, if I had to choose someone, it'd be Bosch. He may be young and lacking in stature, but he certainly has the talent. I'd prefer to give him a few more seasons to bulk up a bit and to get a little more experience, but seeing as though we don't have any other real options, Bosch would be my call. 

Pat Lambie could be back in the next few weeks and if he gets a few games under his belt and stays fit before the June tests then he will almost certainly be Allister Coetzee's pick. If not then I reckon it'll be a straight race between Elton Jantjies and Curwin Bosch.

I don't subscribe to this theory that Curwin Bosch is too small for test rugby. There is no minimum size in any position and it's what the player actually achieves on the field that matters rather than how tall or how heavy he is. We South Africans tend to write off players because of size which is why test quality players like Gio Aplon and Brent Russell (not to mention forwards like Heinrich Brussow or Schalk Brits) played only a fraction of the test matches they should have played.

We'll only know if Bosch can't cope if we give him a shot. The sooner the better I reckon. He's in good form and one thing we know is he's our best goal-kicker.

I think it'll be Pat Lambie wearing the Springbok #10 jersey in June but I'm hoping it'll be Curwin Bosch.

 Rob Du Press, Lionel Cronje, Curwin Bosche and Jantjies.
Tough choice because their skill sets overlap in places.
IE one would be tempted to put Bosche forward for a tactical kicking game, but he is also a good gap runner with nice offloads.
Jantjies suites the Lions game has improved his defence, intermittent distribution though. Has found a good bit kicking form of late. Made some monster touch finders on Saturday
Rob Du Preez strikes me as a Jack of all trades master of non type. So probably the most adaptable of the bunch. Bit of unknown quantity for me. Likely to become a front runner in time.
Lionel Cronje. Well, he looks good in a bad team which I doubt many of the above could achieve. Good distribution and reads the game well for me.
So a Lionscentric game plan would see me pick Jantjies with Rob Du Preez.
The standard kick out of red zone and try to pin opposition in their half approach would probably see me pick Bosche to start with Lionel Cronje on the bench.
A balanced approach and I'd probably take Lionel Cronje with either Jantjies or Du Preez as back up.
Lambie, Even when fit is too slow for my money. I know that some here like him but we all have our favorites and he's not one of mine. Had too many chances and never stepped up.
How is that for an answer that sits right on the fence :)

 I know it's Du Preez but autocorrect doesn't.

 As for Pollard. Let him forget Test rugby for now and focus on getting strong and back to form. Injuries happen and unfortunately he needs to play himself into contention again. I wish him well and hope he does kick the door down to get his jersey back.

Frankly I think that Jantjies had enough test opportunities and constantly folded under pressure with his decision-making going to pieces.   That was evident in quite a umber of Super Rugby games as well,   He may be given more opportunities - but he is most likely to fold again on test level.
Lambie is a more mature flyhalf who does not fold under pressure,   He is the more likely candidate should he be fit and back to play rugby.
Pollard is not on my list at all - he has been rather indifferent in all Super Rugby games this year.   He initially did not look as being match-fit and that deficiency was noticeable in subsequent games where he showed lack of pace and decision-making uncertainty.
Du Preez in NZ did not look good and he seems to have had an up and down season.   I think he would be better under pressure - but I am not sure about it myself.   Fact is Jean-Luc du Plessis was preferred to him before his injury and there were reasons for that.  
Jake White apparently convinced his previous assistant coach to consider Fat Fransie for the position - but the latter is a huge liability with poor decision-making and lack of pace and has been a champion ball possession handovers in 2014 - when he handed over ball possession to the opposition 32 times in Super Rugby - mainly as a result of poorly directed kicking and ball-hogging when he was penalized for hanging onto balls.
If it is to be an overseas-based player I would prefer Goosen to Steyn by the proverbial mile - but Goosen has had a fall-out with Racing Metro and although he is back with them they have not used him in one game since his return.   So he lacks as much game time as Lambie did.
I am sitting on the fence as well on this one - but do not like either Jantjies of Fat Fransie as potential candidates.




   

Hahaha......the Brent Russell for flyhalf advocate reminds us of that hilarious campaign he waged. Right now Jantjies is performing a step above all our other Super flyhalves. So all the posters who are: . 1 Howling for a form team . 2 In the camp that says the Lions need to be the basis of the team. . ......should be agitating for Jantjies, unless of course those views are only skin deep. The fact is if you nominate the players who define Lions rugby there is Whiteley, Kleintjie, Mostert and Jantjies. To give the Lions thing a full go they should probably all be chosen.

Plum I was amazed that u did not select Jantjies as the starting #10.

Best not go to the Park for the Lions next game.
Honestly, if Lambie gets back and has a few games under his belt then he would be my 1st choice. 
But Jantjies will be selected by Coetzee unfortunately.

 
Lambie is and has been the best 10 in the country for a number of years now.

It's unfortunate that he's so fragile.

I can't remember anything positive Lambie has done at 10 for the Boks....except make that long kick against the ABs. He seems like a decent young chap, but I honestly don't think he has a pattern of play in his head when playing 10. At fullback he was good in a Halfpenny like way. . Just my take.

 
We haven't had a top of the line 10 for many moons now.

New Zealand seems to churn them out at a rate of knots while we're left wondering where he'll come from.

Lambie is a player I've always rated ... and to be quite honest with you, I've been waiting for him to show us that vast amount of talent I know he has hidden somewhere.

Still waiting I'm afraid.

Either way ... I still think he's the best we have.

 

Bosch could be mentally ready, even if (perhaps) not physically up to it yet. 
His pole kicking game is exceptional. It helps the Boks to have a kicker that can score penalties from inside our half. 
Next to his kicking ability, he appears to be an opportunist that reads the game quickly. Lots of the good stuff he does appears to be spontaneous, but still compatible with the game plan.
He should not cover any other position- unless no other option is available. 

 Lionel Cronje and I'd have Louis Schrueder as the Bok 9. I believe they have the mental toughness to compete at international level. If the halfback pairing comes good then the Boks have half a chance of regaining their mojo.
It's time to walk away from pretenders like hospital pass Jantjies and the passive aggressive Lambie. Pollard has lost his mojo and it would be unwise to strap the new exciting but inexperienced Flyhalves into a pivotal role especially when it's a Bok side with a losing culture and a clueless coach.

Just an update . . . as per my suggestion above that Pat Lambie might be back in the next few weeks, he is on the bench for the Sharks this weekend.

A fit Lambie in June will mean an end to all this speculation about the Bok #10. This then becomes a discussion as to who is the flyhalf cover on the bench for the Springboks.

Yes with Lambie back it is end of the discussion. We know SA coaches will always take the most conservative option every time- especially Coetzee who is just concerned about saving himself.  

Is Bosch considered a player of colour? I don't care less- but the politicians would jump at the opportunity to have a flyhalf that is compliant with transformation objectives.

.

Good question! If Bosch is classified as a POC then I reckon that is a big bonus.

What a sad state our rugby is in.
When we have to select players on their color as opposed to their ability on the field.
But perhaps the powers that be and make those decisions know better.
I would not be surprised to see Lambie selected as the starting fly-half backed up by Bosch.
He might even be the skipper.

We can all forget about Curwin Bosch for the June tests. He's not in contention for a place in the Springbok squad. He will be with the Junior Bok squad for the U20 World Championship in Georgia.

 That is why I did not mention Bosch in the discussion above.

 Bosch will be released to the Juniors after Saturday.  Jantjies does not play well when "coached" by Coetzee, history proves it.
Lambie is a liability, history proves that.
What a conundrum....  ' so glad I do not really have to choose...

Right thing for Bosch. His kicking is splendid but his general play is still developing.

An article that deals with some of the points raised: . Lloyd Burnard - Sport24 Cape Town - The Springbok flyhalf for three Tests against the French in June has to be Elton Jantjies. It is a crucial series for coach Allister Coetzee and South African rugby. Losses to Ireland at home and Argentina and Italy away all contributed to a 2016 that saw Coetzee win just four of his first 12 Bok Tests at the helm. It was a return that may well have seen him sacked, but here we are and there he is. Now, with a rugby public that isn't expecting much, Coetzee needs to steer this ship towards something resembling stability. And, as is the case in any successful Test match side, he needs a flyhalf general to help him do that. While there is no guarantee that Jantjies is that man long-term, he is Coetzee's best bet right now. He is easy on the eye and thrives in a dominant Lions side that has spent four years sharpening its attacking style and skill, but Jantjies has still not convinced that he possesses the consistency and basic qualities required to be a long-term Bok No 10. His defence is shaky, his kicking game is not consistent enough and his decision making has been questionable at the highest level. The Jantjies that plays with seemingly unlimited license at the Lions is not as effective when asked to play within a framework that still centres around tactical kicking and defence at the Boks. At Test level, the balance between trying something creative and taking the safe option is crucial, and Jantjies perhaps didn't get enough of those decisions right with the Boks in 2016. Jantjies started seven Tests for the Boks last year. They won three of those and have won 36.36% of the 11 Tests that Jantjies has played in since his debut in 2012. Hardly good numbers, but a look around at the other options tells its own story. There was a growing chorus of support for 19-year-old Curwin Bosch to be thrown into the deep end against France, but Wednesday's Junior Bok squad announcement put that argument to an abrupt halt. Bosch will be playing in the U-20 World Championship in Georgia in June and will be unavailable for the Boks, and that is probably a good thing. He is still not good enough defensively - he boasts a tackle success of just 60.7% in Super Rugby this season. It is the area of his game that requires the most urgent work if he is to make the step up. Handre Pollard was the logical Springbok flyhalf this year, but he is sidelined with injury again and won't back any time soon. Pat Lambie has been injured and has been since March 11 when he fractured a vertebra in the Sharks' third game of the Super Rugby season against the Waratahs. He is on the Sharks bench for Saturday's clash against the Force, though. His recovery is on track and he could potentially play for four matches before the June break. But even if Lambie is 'fit' for France, he should not be rushed back to the Boks. Coetzee tried that on the end-of-year tour in 2016. Lambie played just 20 minutes of Super Rugby against the Kings after recovering from his CJ Stander-induced concussion before he was given the No 10 jersey against England. Lambie was poor and the Boks were smashed before they were stunned by Italy a week later, again with Lambie at flyhalf. There is no doubt that, once Lambie is back to his best, he should be considered for Bok selection. And if that happens over the next four matches then he will come into play. But it doesn't seem sensible to throw him in against France, short on game time, when Jantjies has been fit and successful with the Lions all season. Since the beginning of 2014, Lambie has played just 19 Super Rugby matches because of injury. What he needs before he is backed in the green and gold again is an extended run with his franchise that proves that he is fit and capable. Coetzee’s decision to back Lambie ahead of Jantjies on the northern hemsiphere tour last year, even though he was short on game time, showed how desperate he was and it was difficult to fault at the time. But he has to start fresh in 2017 and the priority for Lambie now is a long, injury-free run at the Sharks. It has often been written that Coetzee does not trust Jantjies, and sidelining him for an under-cooked Lambie would confirm that theory. Jantjies has not been as 'flash' for the Lions this season, but maybe that is good news considering he is still getting the job done. The other outsider for a Bok flyhalf berth is Kings journeyman Lionel Cronje, who has been impressive this year in making the Port Elizabeth underdogs a competitive force. But is Cronje good enough for the Boks, and should Coetzee back him ahead of Jantjies? Cronje is also poor defensively (he has made 62.1% of his tackles) while his goal-kicking percentage of 74.4% is also on the low side. While not match better, Jantjies' tackling success of 71.7% and goal kicking success of 81.8%, combined with his recent Test experience, provide an element of comfort that you don't get from Cronje. While his competitors have been dropping like flies around him for the past two seasons, Jantjies has stayed fit and been the general in South Africa's most dangerous Super Rugby team. And yes, the Boks and the Lions are different set-ups entirely and Test match rugby is not Super Rugby, but we need to give Jantjies the chance to prove that he learnt something from his difficult year with the Boks in 2016. It was a tough season for everyone and results were abysmal, but Jantjies didn't do enough wrong to warrant being tossed away, especially now with Pollard injured and Lambie only just returning. When you look at his individual skills, there is no reason why Jantjies can't be the flyhalf South Africa needs. He has a long enough boot, he can kick his goals, he has the ability to facilitate the attacking rugby that everyone seems to want and he has shown that, when he gets it right, his tactical kicking can be on point. The two major areas of concern with Jantjies are defence and consistency. And while those are two significantly big areas, he should be given the France series to show that he has used his failures of 2016 to emerge a better player. Right now, there just isn’t anyone better.

 I'm glad Bosch is not available for the Boks as this will stop the coaches throwing another talented young player to the wolves. Why risk injury or a shattered self confidence? Well now they can't. Good.

 
Yes I agree, Mozart.

Lambie shouldn't have been rushed back last season. Confidence isn't developed overnight. It takes time and it's always easier at a lower level of play.

Lambie hasn't been managed very well. His confidence has always been 50/50 at Test level. It could have collapsed at any moment ... or ... it could have soared under the right coach. It always felt to me that Lambie was hanging on to the bits of confidence he had by his finger nails ... and not wanting dig up the past but Meyer did him no favours either. Best thing for Lambie is to complete the SR season and not be looked at for any of the Test this year.

It is what it is ... and we're stuck with the Lambie of today.

As for Jantjies ... well, the less said the better.

We cannot expect the Boks to play Lions rugby and if Lions rugby is all Jantjies can manage then it's best he not be included in the squad.

What an awful thought to think of him as our best.

 From the list of players not injured I think it is down to Lambie and Janjies,   I do not think Jantjies has the temperament to be a test match player - he has failed too often when playing on test level.
I frankly would much rather see Goosen at flyhalf than either Lambie or Jantjies.   The other potential candidate (Fat Fransie) is a joke in bad taste.

 Cronje should get a  run from the bench IMO.

I for one do not rate Jantjies as a test fly-half.
Firstly, he is scared stiff when he wears that Green and Gold jersey. Basically, he has not got the temperament for test rugby.Secondly, his passes to the players outside him are suicide passes at best.Thirdly, his attacking play is non-existent at test level....proven over and over.Fourthly, his touch kicking is poor and often he does not find touch.Last but not least is his success rate at goal posts...dismal.
Almost forgot, his defensive play and tackling are sadly lacking.He might fit the Lions style of play and look average but he ain't no Honeyball, James or Botha when it comes to the real stuff. 
The bottom line is he is not a test match winner and never has been. 
Lambie, Goosen, Cronje, Bosch are all streaks ahead of him but he has one thing going for him!!!!!!!
He wishes to perform like Carlos Spencer did the only difference is that Carlos Spencer was a gifted natural ball player at all levels of the game.
Just how many times must he fail to prove that he is not a test fly-half?I think he has used up all his options and more.
Some players do not have what is required to make the leap from Currie Cup and Super rugby to Test rugby and unfortunately, he is just such a player.

 I think we have to accept that there are no standout candidates right now. 
As others have mentioned, I don't really know what Lambie offers other than being an ok player. It's been a long time since that Currie Cup final. 
Bosch, shows talent but so did Frans, Lambie, Goosen, Pollard etc. I think we need a better way of managing young talent. Sadly the player drain and general low standards have meant youngsters are relied on too heavily too soon. A drop in performance and they're lambasted, burnt out and off to France before we know it. I hope Bosch is given a few seasons at the sharks to develop his game and find consistency.
For me it has to be Jantjies at the moment. I get that he appears to play well for the Lions and hasn't for the Boks. Maybe super rugby is his ceiling but at least he does perform at that level unlike some of the other names being suggested. 

 
Arthur ... personally I would be hesitant to bring Jantjies back into the mix. As you've said, he's a proven flop at test level. A sudden attack of the jitters and we're done for.

Question is though ... do we bring some inexperienced youngster in and hope he doesn't collapse under the pressure ... or do we resign ourselves to this chump, knowing full well that he's going to dissappoint us ... again?

We can't keep living in the hope that maybe today he'll do us proud.

I think I'd rather take a chance on the inexperienced lad. Maybe not throw him in at the deep end but bring him in over the next few tests to play the last 20 minutes.

Talk about being between a rock and a hard place.

 
Winesy ... it's all a matter of confidence.

Jantjies isn't a world beater but he is talented. He just doesn't believe that he's worthy of the big arena.

It's a big step up. I don't think he has the nerve to be a success story ... but as you say ... what choice do we really have?

 Du Preez is the guy we need

 
You aren't referring to the sod who played his part in getting an average of 7 trys run in past his team over the last 4 matches ... are you?

Rather stick to tennis, dimwit!

I think Jantjies will do better this year, but there are no guarantees when the pressure is on......still if you want to use the Lions model and you are selecting 2 Lions centres there is a case. Ask this, which other SA flyhalf has any ability to launch a backline and the answer is none. So if you want to play ball in hand running rugby you end up, incredibly reluctantly, with Jantjies.

 

 
You keep speaking of using the Lions model of play.

How come?

Thought you were against it.

One selects the very best players in each position. It's madness to select a set of players that suit the flyhalf. If the flyhalf can't cut it with the best around him then he should be done away with.

Jantjies is useless as a test 10. He should not be part of the mix at all ... EVER.