Who should be the Bok 10?

Hmmmm . . . so Klown, you're advocating a selection policy that goes something like this:

"Well, we'd like to pick the best player in that position but he's been injured twice already this year so he'll probably be injured again . . . so we'd better not pick him . . ."

Is that right?

 
Pretty much.

How many matches has he played in the last two years? How many matches should he have played in that time? He spends an age returning to the field after every injury. We aren't talking a week or two but rather months out at a time on the sidelines.

He's hardly back on his feet and he's back into the mix ... because of the coaches desperation. He's never afforded any decent recovery time ... never eased in slowly ... constantly thrown to the wolves ... all in an attempt to make the coaches look good.

When is it going to be about the player? If it carries on like this we'll lose him permanently to injury.

Apart from that ... how does it benefit the team to have their key playmaker changed every odd game?

I've said it once and I'll say it again... Pat Lambie needs a little quality time to himself ... to grow his confidence ... to prove his fitness ... and to find his form.

It's pointless bringing him in at test level without the proper recovery time and see him leave 15 minutes later on a stretcher.

It does him no good and upsets the team as a whole.

Noted. Personally I don't think there should ever be an element of fortune-telling in the selection process but that's just me.

The whole argument is in fact clear on one point only - we have serious deficiencies at flyhalf and there is no clear candidate.   For instance Cronje is an accurate goal kicker and against weaker SR teams look good - against stronger teams under pressure he is not all that good.  
Not one of the other flyhalfs have the potential to develop.   I was hoping that Pollard makes the grade with proper coaching he would develop further but he seems to have gone backwards over the last three years.
So lets look at the situation with regard to the last four years:-
*    Morne Steyn was a dead head player without any attacking ability and atrocious defense.   His only positive was kicking at goal - his out of hand showed inaccuracy and his normal kicking game was largely aimless.   In any event not in the mix anymore.
*    Goosen was a brilliant youngster but because he was poorly managed he was injury prone.   Probably was pushed into his position too early.   He then went to France - where Racing Metro used him out of position when he got over his injury vows and played at mostly 13 or rarely at full back.   Playing him at flyhalf was extremely rare.  When Goosen found his door to play at flyhalf for Racing  closed he rebelled and ultimately went back to the club - but has not played for hem for two months.   Still potentially a candidate which may come into the picture after the appointment of  Franco Smith as backline coach.
*    Pollard showed signs of life in his first test and then was subjected to a game plan no player can actually shine.   He was as a junior and in his early tests outstanding - but in the later tests and the 2015 WC was inadequate - maybe the result of the game plan he had to play.   Be it as it may he came short in defense and his attacking play vanished from sight.     He was injured and did not play at all in 2016.   With proper coaching he may recover from the present unsatisfactory groove he is in.
*   Lambie has been around since 2009.   He is a thinking player, but far too frequently injured and as CC said was poorly managed.   I would rate him the best candidate for selection in June - but rushing him back after his last injury would indicate another instance of poor management.   I think that under Meyer especially Lambie could not play thinking rugby and that removed much of his potential as a player.
*   Jantjies issue has been dealt with extensively.
*   Another option that has been raised is Francois Steyn.   Steyn is not a thinking player and has in the main the same problems as those shown by Morne  Steyn.   He was tried at flyhalf in 2009 and because of virtually no decision-making ability was moved back to other positions after that effort.    However, Steyn is the blue-eyed boy of White and was tried repeatedly at flyhalf for the Sharks in 2014 and subsequently in Montpellier.   He has the same problems and in some cases is even worse than Morne.
I would say the answer is to consider Lambie, Goosen or Jantjies as potential flyhalfs and hope for the best.          
  

The whole argument is in fact clear on one point only - we have serious deficiencies at flyhalf and there is no clear candidate.   For instance Cronje is an accurate goal kicker and against weaker SR teams look good - against stronger teams under pressure he is not all that good.  
Not one of the other flyhalfs have the potential to develop.   I was hoping that Pollard makes the grade with proper coaching he would develop further but he seems to have gone backwards over the last three years.
So lets look at the situation with regard to the last four years:-
*    Morne Steyn was a dead head player without any attacking ability and atrocious defense.   His only positive was kicking at goal - his out of hand showed inaccuracy and his normal kicking game was largely aimless.   In any event not in the mix anymore.
*    Goosen was a brilliant youngster but because he was poorly managed he was injury prone.   Probably was pushed into his position too early.   He then went to France - where Racing Metro used him out of position when he got over his injury vows and played at mostly 13 or rarely at full back.   Playing him at flyhalf was extremely rare.  When Goosen found his door to play at flyhalf for Racing  closed he rebelled and ultimately went back to the club - but has not played for hem for two months.   Still potentially a candidate which may come into the picture after the appointment of  Franco Smith as backline coach.
*    Pollard showed signs of life in his first test and then was subjected to a game plan no player can actually shine.   He was as a junior and in his early tests outstanding - but in the later tests and the 2015 WC was inadequate - maybe the result of the game plan he had to play.   Be it as it may he came short in defense and his attacking play vanished from sight.     He was injured and did not play at all in 2016.   With proper coaching he may recover from the present unsatisfactory groove he is in.
*   Lambie has been around since 2009.   He is a thinking player, but far too frequently injured and as CC said was poorly managed.   I would rate him the best candidate for selection in June - but rushing him back after his last injury would indicate another instance of poor management.   I think that under Meyer especially Lambie could not play thinking rugby and that removed much of his potential as a player.
*   Jantjies issue has been dealt with extensively.
*   Another option that has been raised is Francois Steyn.   Steyn is not a thinking player and has in the main the same problems as those shown by Morne  Steyn.   He was tried at flyhalf in 2009 and because of virtually no decision-making ability was moved back to other positions after that effort.    However, Steyn is the blue-eyed boy of White and was tried repeatedly at flyhalf for the Sharks in 2014 and subsequently in Montpellier.   He has the same problems and in some cases is even worse than Morne.
I would say the answer is to consider Lambie, Goosen or Jantjies as potential flyhalfs and hope for the best.          
  

 
Many of our SR 10s are playing for relatively weak franchises. They shine against weaker opposition because the side they're playing for is dominating the collision.

How would these 10s perform behind a better pack. How would they perform with a better quality of player around them? It's a lot easier to show your magic when your pack in on the front foot.

What would Bosch, Cronje or Du Preez do at the Lions? How about Pollard?

 
 

 CC 
The best thing to happen to Pollard would be to move to the Lions.
I would add J-L du Plessis to your list bearing in mind the fact that he was until injury preferred as flyhalf to Du Preez by the Stormers.
I like what I saw recently of Cronje, but he has been around for years.   He moved to the Brumbies in 2015 and was rarely used by them - maybe he learned a lot from Larkham and it is coming through now.   He then went to the Sharks where he was also rarely used basically because of the clueless Gold.  
I think it is time to get the flyhalfs properly coached as to -
*    decision-making;*    proper and meritorious execution; and*    defensive requirements.
The further issue is how game plans should be dealt with - one cannot hold players totally to game plans and thus take away decision-making from them.   
The answer remains proper coaching and that will not be solved with most of our present coaches around.    
        

Not worth wasting time on you.
If u cannot read or understand the issue then it is your problem.
 

 Uh-oh, A change of heart after I had to suffer your Bible readings. Alongside of that  you did try and impress on us what a virtuous fella you were Hmmm?
Funny then when pressed for a simple few questions all that goes out the window....why is that Arthur??....is it because you cannot back up your argument?...that you don't have any proof?
That you're another phony loaded with self importance and it hurts when that self importance is challenged Huh?
So let me ask you again, present the proof or stand exposed as a Liar...your call! 

This from Urinal saying Lambie's injury prone track record should not be a factor:: . 'Noted. Personally I don't think there should ever be an element of fortune-telling in the selection process but that's just me.' , Fortune telling 1/ Urinal zero.

 The debate has been ongoing without regard to the real issue as to Lambie.  He started on Saturday and was injured again.   The problem was concussion again and no one knows when he will be back - the last time he had concussion it took months for him to return.   I do not think he will be back before the June tests if his previous concussion problem is borne in mind. 
So where to now??????  

 
Coetzee doesn't have his finger on the pulse.

He doesn't know who our talented players are and so will return to the overseas base of hasbeens.

I have my doubts that he'll draw Cronje and Cloete in. He will more than likely continue with the test failure Jantjies.

I can't wait to see his squad.

 

 Lambie is not to be considered. He now has a lot to prove. Jantjes is shaky. Pollard out and Curwin unavailable. Du Plessis is injured.
So the two local contenders really Cronje and Du Preez. Now wee CC complains about the Stormers leaking 7 tries and thinks its all Du Preez's fault. A stupid comment but wee cc is still a number of cuts above dense denise.
I like the competitiveness of Du Preez. He is unafraid, a bigger flyhalf with bottle. 
As to style of player those who have know the game will understand that the dumb bulle style that concentrated on set piece, up and unders, rolling mauls and goal kicking only partially represented Bok rugby. The idea that Bok rugby of old had no attacking flair is absurd.The Lions model with sound set piece and attacking flair is in fact the old Bok model. We must go back to our roots. Meyer did us all a huge disservice winning the Super comp playing this dumb rugby.
The fact is this. A bunch of nobody Lions players were coached to play an intelligent balanced game. Look at them now. Other big franchises like the Bulls, Sharks and Stormers buggered around without a clue and now get chewed up by a Lions side that looks far more innovative and skillful. Where would we be today if the Bulls, Sharks and Stormers and of course the Boks had all been coached by an Ackerman type coaching set up. The answer is obvious.
Any idea that the Bulls, Stormers, Sharks and Boks cant play a brand of rugby modeled by the Lions is total BS and displays a level of ignorance that cannot be tolerated.

We can argue who should be the Bok 10 until the cows come home but if Lambie's latest concussion rules him out of contention then there's no real point arguing who will be the Bok 10 because Elton Jantjies is now a near certainty.

Correct, there really is nobody else. Although, for me personally, that was the case before Lambie's latest concussion. Lambies return to the starting line-up in place of Bosch has weakened the Sharks. However, I am not saying Bosch should be starting for the Boks, he is exactly where he should be to gain experience before playing at the highest level. Also, I am not saying Jantjies is the answer, especially with Coetzee coaching him, but he is the best of what we have available. 

 Bluebok
I am not sure you are correct.    The Sharks was functioning - but the moment Lambie was injured the whole backline collapsed with April as flyhalf,   That I think more than anything else was the problem.    The pivot was gone and his replacement was inadequate.
I am not going to say Jantjies is the only option because he ahs been totally inadequate when he was selected in the past and there is no indication that he will not be in failure in future as well. 
I would rather consider Cronje or Goosen than Jantjies.    

 
Yes we know all of this, Comrade.

There really is no need to repeat it over and over again.

We got it the first time you posted it.

Is there anything else you would like to say?

In future just copy and paste it.

Look ...

I am not sure you are correct.    The Sharks was functioning - but the moment Lambie was injured the whole backline collapsed with April as flyhalf,   That I think more than anything else was the problem.    The pivot was gone and his replacement was inadequate.
I am not going to say Jantjies is the only option because he ahs been totally inadequate when he was selected in the past and there is no indication that he will not be in failure in future as well. 
I would rather consider Cronje or Goosen than Jantjies.    
See how easy that was?

You should try it.

CC play nice now! Although I must agree, Mike does have a few of his replies on repeat. 
As for the French series, I am happy to write it off as an experiment and try new things...mostly because we'll probably lose the series even if we are not experimenting. So I am all for starting with a couple of the new kids. For me though it is clear, Bosch is the future bok 10, but he needs to be managed...so far so good. Pollard has had his chance, injuries aside. I'd say start Jantjies with Cronje on the bench, possible swap the starting order if Cronje brings his A game.  

 Well PL is injured...I don't how serious but I suspect he is targeted too much because opponents respect him...I just surmise if he could and should be more allusive and not try to be so bold...none of our 10's are Henry Honiballs or Dan Carters...a coaching and game plan oversight ??

Cheers guys, I must go...a few odds & ends to do before tomorrow...I can watch  rugby in Moscow for the next 2 weeks.

 Safe travels.

 Enjoy Seb!

 Enjoy Seb & give Put@in Don@ald's regards

 Donald does that on a daily basis......but yes there's nothing like the personal touch

only one flyhalf can play the expansive game the modern game requires and thats janties.
but to get the best out of him u need a very heavy lions Bok backline.


9 faf de klerk, 10 e janties

12 r van rensburg, 13 j kriel

11 c skosan, 15 j combrink, 14 d lleyds

as far as i know combrink and rensburg should be back by RC???
but this backline would really shine with jan ties leading the way.

Wow.....where's JJ.

Lambie needs to put his health first now, he needs to look after himself and put rugby on the backburner. 

I suppose it's got to be Cronje or Janjties, long term I hope Pollard comes back and starts showing his 2014/15 form. Bosch looks a talent too.

@mozzy,

"Wow.....where's JJ"

my guess is hes prob somewhere were they know how to use him properly, which would mean outside of sth afrca.

fyi i try to where i can select players based in SA, as i have faith in the depth, not so much with ur coaches though .

 
Monkey ... it seems as if your as ignorant as Comrade Mike.

Jantjies?? Kriel at 13?? Faff De Klerk?? Leyds??

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaaaaa!!!

Me thinks it's best you rather hush up.

LOL!!!!

 

 Talking with someone recently he told me that apparently Faf has a bit of an attitude problem. 
Might just be rumors but does explain why he's fallen out of favor a bit.

 
I wonder what's brought this on?

Money?