Why does Bok lock dominance never materialize?

We have many superb locks....Etzebeth, Snyman, Willemse, Flip, Stephanie, Lomp.....guys like Mostert are too small. But why is it that these great locks have been unable to give the Boks a meanigful edge. More often than not Jaws and Whitelock outplay our chaps. ..... Part of it for sure is coaching....the soft skills, ball handling and passing. We just haven't got there yet. But it's the missing power edge that is the first concern. ..... It seems to me we do better with one 'blocky' power lock....Krynauw Otto, Flip and in future Willemse. These heavy men add something even a power-house like Etzebeth struggles to provide. ....rucking power. Perhaps Etzebeth, a guy so fast and agile he gassed Ben Smith down the wing, is more of a 5 lock, a position he has played successfully. And I have little doubt if he focuses there he will be our best 5. .... Willemse plus Etzebeth at 5 could transform the Bok pack into a more dominant unit.

 Dream on

I don't think even the biggest rugby noob or the most biased and prejudiced fool would consider a Springbok team without Pieter-Steph du Toit as one the starting locks . . . you'd have to be both!

 You mean we absolutely couldn't do without a lock who got dummied twice to lose the Pom game....LMAOFY!

 Mozart - when  we see what makes you LYAO - we realise that you specialize in sh!t.  What positon did Du Toit played that day idiot? 

Long rant... but please read...

Moz, I hear you.
But I must disagree somewhat.
We have, as you mentioned, some fantastic locks.
The issue i think, has more to do with not allowing a combination to settle.
PSDT and Eben are world class (ask every other top rugby nation, and they'll tell you). Only south african supporters dont think they are top class locks.
They have played just a season together.
Bakkies and Victor also had issues when they started out.

We are so critical of our own.

The fact that the entire Bok team sucked last year translates in to critical thinking too!

Give those two, along with Lood and Jansen this season to stamp their international class.

I'm more worried about our lack of ace 10's! Lambie is a decent second choice.
Elton will have his days...
Handre... great prospect and has had some fine moments, but he needs a full season to get back to his potential best.
But we do not have any world class, consistent performers at 10.
But then again, i go back to what i said abiut that Bok team that sucked.
Maybe with a proper coach, it will all come right.


We have the best, best school boy rugby in the world.
But from school boy to boks, there is a huge gap in coaching which we need to fill
Thats where i see JW coming in to the picture. He has all the right credentials.
He needs to be given free reign in getting structures in place where we can groom these kids.

 Time will tell Chip-ou, but a year ago they were saying the same things about Lomp. The truth is Stephanie's international 2016 wasn't a success apart from early form against the Irish B team. Hence the return of Lomp. I wan't to see a great game against a strong international team before I get too excited. "Effort" players will always look good against weak teams, ....... Tokkie as for your laughable comment that Stephanie's two horrible dummy bites were somehow ok because he was playing flank....he made 8 tackles and missed 2 against Wales as well. Lomp by contrast made all 9 of his tackles. .......... This was the take on that incident: ..... 'Youngs was almost at a stroll as he exploited a gap at the breakdown, easily duping flanker Pieter-Steph du Toit with a dummy before supplying Ford with the scoring pass for their third try.'

 BS in buckets again.  Have you nothing else to write about denigrating Du Toit.   When last did the Bok locks dominate anyway = definitely not since 2000.

 BS in buckets again.  Have you nothing else to write about denigrating Du Toit.   When last did the Bok locks dominate anyway = definitely not since 2000.

 ..............

Ezebeth doesn't understand how to run on to the ball. He squats and then catches in a stationary position and rarely picks up full speed before getting tackled. He got lucky with Bismark- and since then over does this move all the time.
The tackler always has a teammate on his shoulder while making the tackle. Opposition player one tackles his ankles, while the supporting player competes for the ball, or provides support in the tackle. A ruck forms and 2nd opposition player waits for Etzebeth to hit the deck -and compete for the ball to slow down retention.

Matfield totally dominated the 2007 WC final in his MOM performance.....and so dominated the 2009 TN NZ tried to avoid touch. Both happened after 2000.

 Matfiekd never dominates anything as a lock - as a standby center he frustrates the backline - but was clearly seen by idiots w ho adore him.  

 clevermike
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 25229RE: Why does Bok lock dominance never materialize?
March 06, 2017, 06:38:13

 Matfiekd never dominates anything as a lock - as a standby center he frustrates the backline - but was clearly seen by idiots who adore him.  

OK, maybe we should identify some of these idiots once and for all.

After his last ever pro game of rugby, Malinder, who was a strong contender to be the England coach said: “I had a chat with Victor at the end,” Mallinder said. “He has been fantastic for us. He did not come here to play 80 minutes 32 times but be a part of the squad. He has played a massive part for us.” 
But why would we listen to Malinder if we have an esteemed rugby brain like ComradeTokkie to listen to?
I tried to find a single sentence or phrase in this article to sum it up but you will have to read the entire article to get the idea. 
Paul O'Connol: “He’s the best lineout forward in the world and has been for a long time. To be able to take two years out and come back as good, if not better, than he ever was is an incredible achievement.”  
But why would we listen to Paul O'Connel when we have an an esteemed rugby brain like ComradeTokkie to listen to?

Welsh News site, Walesonline: "Victor Matfield: How things could have been very different for one of the greatest Springboks of all timeHow Victor Matfield became one of the most successful rugby players in history and achieved legendary status in the process"
The Telegraph: "The South African is widely regarded as the best second row in the world currently, and has been a key figure for the Springboks since his debut against Italy in 2001."
Planerrugby: "In the closest run contest so far, Victor Matfield was given the nod for your second row, beating John Eales by a little more than 100 votes.
We briefly considered having a single poll for both second row positions, but that just wouldn't work in the modern game. Matfield's partnership with Bakkies Botha at the Bulls and for South Africa is the perfect example of how two very different players, who perform very different roles, combine to form a modern day second row.
Matfield received 45 per cent of your votes compared to Eales' 42 per cent."
Al these people have made those ridiculous remarks without consulting an esteemed rugby brain like ComradeTokkie first. Fecking idiots.

Mozart yap about Lock domination and I asked him when last did the Springbok locks dominated anything.   The stooge then came up with Matfield as a dominant player.  He never was a dominant lock ever - he was good in line-out jumping and that is where it ended.   He was physically incapable of being as a DOMINANT LOCK     
Brainless ran for cover and somewhere find a comment from a Club about how good Matfield was.  
Just plank - why did previous Springbok locks not rate Mozart fopr inclusion in the WC squad?   They aid he was good in line-out jumping - but unacceptable in other components of the game.   Not me - that case from Wiese and Geldenhuys on Supersport on TV.
So who do you believe - previous Springbok LOCKS - or your newspaper article. 
Is line-out takes the only contribution a LOCK makes to the game.   He did never dominate other players - he was physically not strong enough for that.   And his return to Springbok rugby was an absolute disaster.
This is tommyrot from a praise-song after Matfield played for Northampton Saints - as well a story from 2001 - have you got nothing more - plank?

None of your locking pairs come near the class of Retalluck and Whitelock anyway.

 He only dominated the most important set piece....to the extent that opponents tried to avoid that set piece. And he provided superb defence, kickoff possession and the kind of handling we now say all our tight forwards need to aspire to...... WC Final MOM in 2007, saving our bacon with a superb open field tackle on Tait when a try was imminent. Not only was he a dominant lock, he was arguably our best player for at least 6 years.

Steph Dutoit is in better form than Retalick who has not played well for a while, and Whitelock makes most of his contribution in the lineout. 
Whitelock is probably the best lineout lock since the retirement of Matfield- but he has not been involved in open play for a while. 

 clevermike
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 25230RE: Why does Bok lock dominance never materialize?
March 06, 2017, 12:51:41

Brainless ran for cover and somewhere find a comment from a Club about how good Matfield was.
Are you for real? Do you know what "running for cover" means? I listed a few people and sites/newspapers who were singing Matfield's praises. You always keep on harping of all the ex-Boks, etc who did not always agree about Matfield. Who do you name. Kobus Wiese who is nothing but a loudmouth who was as dirty as they came and not all that special either. Geldenhuys. Which Geldenhuys? If you are talking about Adri Geldenhuys, then what was his claim to fame? Your other favourite Matfield critique is Mark Andrews who, by his own admission, was told that he was not good enough anymore. The Sharks told him that. The Boks told him that as well when they dropped him like a bad habit when he was the same age that Matfield was when he played in the 2007 RWC.
If I had to decide who to trust on their opinion about Matfield and I had to choose who between Geldenhuys, Vetgat Wiese, Andrews, scribes of various European newspapers, ex-players like Paul O'Connel, Brian Moore, Will Greenwood, etc, I would know who I would not choose. It would not be three highly envious SA ex-locks. Least of all an old codger like you, mate.

Good post Vlag.....sour, sour grapes and Andrews' grapes are the sourest.

 Mozart
Do you really think that previous Springbok locks have sour grapes - players who never competed with Matfield as a lock and who knows what is expected from a lock.  
Even Bakkies Botha said that Matfield was not always standing around in the backline - he was not contributing to any Tight 5 work other than line-outs - for the rest he was useless.  
The sour grapes story has been cooked up in your delirious malfunctioning brain as an excuse about much public comment.   However, that is not all - the reason why Meyer lost his job was the fact that he was taking Springbok rugby backwards with players like Matfield in the mix.  
 

 clevermike
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 25231RE: Why does Bok lock dominance never materialize?
March 06, 2017, 16:30:27

 Mozart
Do you really think that previous Springbok locks have sour grapes - players who never competed with Matfield as a lock and who knows what is expected from a lock.  
Even Bakkies Botha said that Matfield was not always standing around in the backline - he was not contributing to any Tight 5 work other than line-outs - for the rest he was useless.  
None of your "expert ex-Boks" ever got a fraction of the accolades that Matfield got from scribes and rugby people from all over the world and none of them ever will. I doubt if many would even remember someone like vuilgat Wiese and Andrews when they have to name great ex-Boks. As for Bakkies, I am not surprised that you would want to twist around Bakkies' remarks to suit your own dirty underhanded little agenda. Now go find yourself something to keep yourself busy with because you are making an ars.ehole of yourself.

  Foeitog - His brain hits low year again before that malfunctioning brain cell of his goes sleep.   I have seen newspapers have droves of write-ups about players who failed.   An excellent example is Fat Fransie and another Morne Steyn followed by Jantjies.
If performance is measured by newspaper reports then we have real  BS in operation. 
Are you that dim or do you just pretend that you are?  

 Morne Steyn is another who you have been slagging off ad nauseam who has received accolades that none of the current or recent Bok flyhalves will ever get  and that is including flavour of the day Pollard and definitely Lambie or your other boy wonder, Glaasen.
The only one worthy of a "foeitog" award is you ou suurknol toffieneus. You can rant and rave about your idols as much as you like but PSDT will never be a Victor Matfield. Even the much appraised Eben Etzebeth will never emulate Bakkies Botha. I am not even going to try and compare Loodvoet with any of the past locks because he does not deserve a spot in there. I was p!ssed off when I learnt that the Bulls have signed him. 
None of Lambie, Glaasen, Jantjies or Pollard will ever be one better than Morne Steyn. None of Faf de Klerk or Reinach will ever come close to Fourie Du Preez, who you have also slagged off at many occasions. They will not even come close to a 2015 version of Fourie du Preez. Live with it.
PS. Now don't go running off with your typical immature childish tantrums that I want to see VM, Bakkies, Morne and FDP back in the current Bok side. That is not what I have said. 

 The [raise song above is as false as the writer is in his misunderstanding of the game of rugby,   Hell he mix up some real rugby players by duds and then try and make a song of it.  

 Ag jou ou snotoog doos. Jy is so kinderagtig soos 'n standerd vyf dogtertjie wat tieties kry.

 Spot on again Vlag.....ou Tokkie and his bar room wisdom hasn't produced one rugby insight.

 Talking of rugby insight - why have you never had an original thought about rugby and waste our time on site by writing all the drivel you can ever find.  
Tight 5 and lock domination and you come up with Kiewiet Matfield - the lock that think Tight 5 play is at center,   What a joke.