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World Rankings

Started by generaltit59 REPLIES1,750 VIEWS· 18 Nov 2018, 08:30
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GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
18 Nov 2018, 08:30
#1
18 Nov 2018, 08:30#1
#
TeamPoints 1 (?2) Ireland 92.81 (+2.69) 2 (?1) New Zealand 90.89 (-2.69) 3
Wales 86.70
4 (?5) South Africa 85.70 (+1.76) 5 (?4) England 85.54
6 (?7) Australia 82.75 (+0.24) 7 (?6) Scotland 80.99 (-1.76) 8
France 80.16 (+1.96) 9 (?10) Fiji 76.40
10 (?9) Argentina 76.04 (-1.96) 11
Japan 75.24
12 (?15) USA 74.10 (+1.78) 13 (?12) Tonga 73.84
14
Georgia 73.42 (+1.05) 15 (?13) Italy 73.07 (-0.24) 16 (?17) Samoa 66.57 (-1.05) 17 (?16) Romania 66.47 (-1.78) 18
Uruguay 65.37
19
Russia 65.20
20
Spain 65.06 (+1.97) 21
Canada 62.90 (+2.11) 22 (?24) Hong Kong 60.21 (+1.99) 23 (?28) Netherlands 58.71 (+2.20) 24 (?23) Portugal 58.30
25
Belgium 58.09
26 (?22) Namibia 57.68 (-1.97) 27
Brazil 56.81
28 (?26) Germany 55.71 (-2.11) 29 (?33) Switzerland 54.60 (+1.34) 30
Chile 54.36
31 (?32) Korea 53.59
32 (?29) Kenya 52.86 (-1.99) 33 (?31) Poland 51.64 (-2.20) 34
Lithuania 51.53
35
Ukraine 50.25
36 (?37) Colombia 49.84
37 (?38) Paraguay 49.59
38 (?39) Malta 49.48
39 (?40) Zimbabwe 49.28
40 (?36) Czechia 48.63 (-1.34) 41
Tunisia 48.53
42
Uganda 48.34
43
Sri Lanka 48.27
44
Cote D'Ivoire 46.59



Well done Ireland...times are a'changing...looks like the most competitive world cup looming, ever.


Also the hosts, Japan will most likely play in their first quarter finals.


Rugby as a game is the winner overall...Scotland, Japan and Georgia have stepped up and Ireland is phenominal...I'm looking very forward to WC Japan.



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Nov 2018, 09:30
#2
18 Nov 2018, 09:30#2

Seb

Where did you get the ratings from?   If that is indeed the rankings on Monday - then if SA beat Wales on Saturday they will move up to number 3 in the ratings with a count of circa 87,70 as against Wales with 84,70 - slipping below England in the rankings.

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Nov 2018, 09:30
#3
18 Nov 2018, 09:30#3

Duplic ation

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Nov 2018, 09:30
#4
18 Nov 2018, 09:30#4

D uplication

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Nov 2018, 10:07
#6
18 Nov 2018, 10:07#6

I hope you are right.   Can you do a calculation  what would happen if the Springboks beat Wales on Saturday?

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
18 Nov 2018, 10:36
#7
18 Nov 2018, 10:36#7
@Mike. You can do the calculations yourself. Click on the link and scroll down to do the calculations. Just fill in the predicted score/s and the calculations will be done automatically.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Nov 2018, 10:46
#8
18 Nov 2018, 10:46#8

Thanks Ceradyne

I put the score in of the Springboks winning 23 -18 and the result was 87,90 for SA and 84,50 for W ales - resulting in Wales going from rank 3 to Rank 5 - below England at rank 4

In the unlikely event of Australia beating England - it would change the scenario though.  

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
18 Nov 2018, 11:41
#9
18 Nov 2018, 11:41#9
The two scenarios that have the bigggest influence on the rankings are a home loss and an away win. A home win and an away loss have a lesser influence on the rankings. Of course the margins of the loss/win have an additional influence. The methodology is explained on here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rugby_Rankings Scroll down to Current calculation method.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
18 Nov 2018, 11:41
#10
18 Nov 2018, 11:41#10
Duplication.
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
18 Nov 2018, 12:42
#11
18 Nov 2018, 12:42#11

Mike:

SA 23 Wales 18 for example will bring SA to 3, 87.9 (+3.96)

Wales goes to 5, 84.5 (-2,3)

A narrow win for England against Australia will place England at 85.54 that is still 4.

MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
18 Nov 2018, 18:03
#12
18 Nov 2018, 18:03#12
I can’t find any news of Ireland now being ranked first on any of the websites. All the talk beforehand was that the ABs would remain No. 1 even with a loss.
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
18 Nov 2018, 18:26
#13
18 Nov 2018, 18:26#13

.

Well Moola this calculator is on the IRB website and was updated on the 12th November which was after the 2nd week of autumn international s...I further updated the 3rd week with all the results none were left out.

Because it has not appeared on the media does not make it suspect...you can click on the link yourself...the calculator is pretty elementary and straight forward.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Nov 2018, 22:45
#14
18 Nov 2018, 22:45#14
On the other hand if Wales win, the Poms will likely move to 4 and the Boks to 5. There is an upper group of NZ and Ireland (used to be the Boks under HM)....and a second group fought out by Wales, England and South Africa. Oz appears to be stuck in outer darkness.
MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
18 Nov 2018, 22:55
#15
18 Nov 2018, 22:55#15

I'd check your Maths and calculator Seb...

Read the "news" on the World Rugby site where it said that even if Ireland had a large win they could not displace the ABs from the top ranking.

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,253 posts
18 Nov 2018, 23:45
#16
18 Nov 2018, 23:45#16

According to those rankings, if the Boks beat Wales this weekend they go to third. 

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
19 Nov 2018, 06:09
#17
19 Nov 2018, 06:09#17

If it's not correct then one must conclude that the calculator is dodgy...however Ireland have won all their games this year :

1) 3rd Feb ...Ire/France 15-13 Away

2) 10th Feb ...Ire/Italy 56-19 Home

3) 24th Feb... Ire/Wales 37-27 Home

4) 10th Mar...Ire/Scot 28-8 Home

5) 17th Mar...Ire//Eng 24-15 Away

6) 3rd Nov....Ire/Italy 54-7 Neutral (Chicago)

7) 10th Nov...Ire/Arg 28-17 Home

8) 17th Nov...Ire/NZ 16-9 Home


NZ on the other hand lost one game to SA at home.


Blame it on Irish luck or perhaps Murphy's law ( Yhprums law if you are Irish)... if you like...LOL...but why are people so reluctant to give the Emerald Isle such accolades and besides a lot of great NZ'ers including AB's have their distant roots in Ireland...my dads family does and I think a lot of us have...there is always a dormant pride vesting in this great sentiment.

Irish team you deserve this...well done lads.


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Nov 2018, 06:12
#18
19 Nov 2018, 06:12#18

Sorry Mozart - Under Meyer the Springboks never got within five points from the AB's in the rankings.   They may have been 2nd or third - at one point in the WC in 2015 at 6th - but the actual  point difference was always big.

Are you hoping for a loss against Wales on Saturday?         

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
19 Nov 2018, 10:14
#19
19 Nov 2018, 10:14#19
Monday 10 Dec 2012 - 24 June 2013. NZ 90.08-ZA 86.94 Monday 24 June 2013. NZ 90.08-ZA 87.03. Monday 26 August 2013. NZ 91.64-ZA 87.29. Just a few dates I plucked out the air. You can check them all on https://www.world.rugby/rankings/mru?lang=en
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
19 Nov 2018, 10:18
#20
19 Nov 2018, 10:18#20
One more at random date. 27 Oct 2014. NZ 93.15-ZA 90.41
MO
MoonroverPro1,973 posts
19 Nov 2018, 10:25
#21
19 Nov 2018, 10:25#21

The only way I will personally compute Ireland above New Zealand is if they had beaten them away.

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
19 Nov 2018, 10:31
#22
19 Nov 2018, 10:31#22
The world rankings system does have a proviso to discriminate between home and away games. Go check. You get more points for an away win but you also get “penalised” more for a home loss.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
19 Nov 2018, 10:35
#23
19 Nov 2018, 10:35#23
I found the “flaw” in the calculator. It was actually a Seb flaw. Seb ticked the RWC box on the right which means that it was calculated as a RWC game. When you untick the RWC box it places NZ above Ireland. Had Ireland won by a bigger margin they would have been on top. I changed Ireland’s score to 30 to check it out. That put Ireland ahead of NZ
MO
MoonroverPro1,973 posts
19 Nov 2018, 10:43
#24
19 Nov 2018, 10:43#24
I did see an Irish victory coming mainly because the Kiwis were flat.Playing the Rugby Championship and then these overseas games has made thema prime target.Hats off to Ireland,did their homework and timed their fixtures.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
19 Nov 2018, 11:01
#25
19 Nov 2018, 11:01#25
Uhmmm. How many times have the South Africans been told that the end of the season story was a shyte excuse.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Nov 2018, 11:40
#26
19 Nov 2018, 11:40#26

Ceradyne

I think we should wait for the end of year results.   In the case of three of the years mentioned by you, you used mid-year stats before the RC and End of Year tour tests.   I tried desperately to find the Year results - but could not find any.   It is important because at the end of each year is important, since -

*   In fact the Springboks lost the RC tests against the AB's in 2013 - which would increase the gap by the end of 2013;

*   2014 turned into a disaster year for the Springboks - other than their only win under Meyer against the AB's - but losses against Wales and Ireland as well in the EOYT:

*    2014 was followed by disaster after disaster up to the Japan disaster - that ended SA at no 6 in the rankings - which was somewhat recovered later in the 2015 WC.

What I am trying to say - if you can help to get the EOY rankings it would clear up the matter comprehensively.

In the meantime I used my memory of the EOY rankings - but would change my statement as to the gap between AB's and the Springboks.   I would appreciate it  if  you can help out iro the End of Year rankings.   

   

*          

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Nov 2018, 11:42
#27
19 Nov 2018, 11:42#27

Sorry - but I was worried about the calculations and still think we must wait for the final rankings based on the games on Saturday.

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
19 Nov 2018, 11:58
#28
19 Nov 2018, 11:58#28

Thanks Cera...my mistake...should NOT have ticked RWC box...updated calc...my most humble apologies

It's now :-

1 NZ 92.24 (-1.35)

2 Ire 91.47 (+ 1.35)

then comes Wales,Eng, SA, Austr, Scot., France, Arg.

I think it's accurate now...sorry Kiwi's...you can send me the bill for cardiac medication





GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
19 Nov 2018, 12:13
#29
19 Nov 2018, 12:13#29

WR Men's Rankings

2018-11-12 CALCULATED #
TeamPoints 1
New Zealand 92.24 (-1.35) 2
Ireland 91.47 (+1.35) 3
Wales 86.70
4
England 85.54
5
South Africa 84.82 (+0.88) 6 (?7) Australia 82.63 (+0.12) 7 (?6) Scotland 81.87 (-0.88) 8
France 79.18 (+0.98) 9
Argentina 77.02 (-0.98) 10
Fiji 76.40
11
Japan 75.24
12
Tonga 73.84
13 (?15) USA 73.21 (+0.89) 14 (?13) Italy 73.20 (-0.12) 15 (?14) Georgia 72.90 (+0.52) 16
Romania 67.36 (-0.89) 17
Samoa 67.09 (-0.52) 18
Uruguay 65.37
19
Russia 65.20
20
Spain 64.07 (+0.99) 21
Canada 61.85 (+1.05) 22 (?24) Hong Kong 59.22 (+0.99) 23 (?22) Namibia 58.67 (-0.99) 24 (?23) Portugal 58.30
25
Belgium 58.09
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Nov 2018, 12:50
#30
19 Nov 2018, 12:50#30

Thanks Seb

We should not make our own calculations and rather wait for the official calculations  

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
19 Nov 2018, 12:58
#31
19 Nov 2018, 12:58#31
1
New Zealand 92.24 (-1.35) 2
Ireland 91.47 (+1.35) 3 (?5) South Africa 86.31 (+2.37) 4
England 86.25 (+0.71) 5 (?3) Wales 85.21 (-1.49) 6
Scotland 82.38 (-0.37) 7
Australia 81.92 (-0.59) 8
France 79.81 (+1.61) 9
Argentina 76.51 (-1.50) 10
Fiji 75.77 (-0.63) 11
Japan 75.24
12
Tonga 73.84
13 (?15) USA 73.21 (+0.89) 14 (?13) Italy 73.20 (-0.12) 15 (?14) Georgia 72.90 (+0.52) 16
Romania 67.36 (-0.89) 17
Samoa 67.09 (-0.52) 18
Uruguay 65.37
19
Russia 65.20
20
Spain 64.07 (+0.99) 21
Canada 61.85 (+1.05) 22 (?24) Hong Kong 59.22 (+0.99) 23 (?22) Namibia 58.67 (-0.99) 24 (?23) Portugal 58.30
25
Belgium 58.09
26 (?28) Netherlands 57.62 (+1.10) 27
Brazil 56.81
28 (?26) Germany 56.76 (-1.05) 29 (?30) Chile 54.36
30 (?33) Switzerland 53.93 (+0.67) 31 (?29) Kenya 53.85 (-0.99)


GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
19 Nov 2018, 13:09
#32
19 Nov 2018, 13:09#32

Mike, it's fun to play around with predictions and I do not think the calculator is inaccurate if the data is correct...why I ticked RWC box in error was a duffer...obviously this applicable only after WC games.

The above will be the order, say...Italy/NZ 10-48, Scot/Arg 21-18, Eng/Austr 15-11, Wales/Sa 15-20 Ire/Usa 51-18 and France/Fiji 33-5 (more or less possibilities)

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Nov 2018, 13:42
#33
19 Nov 2018, 13:42#33

Seb 

What would the results be if the above scores are entered - I would make a variation iro the Ireland USA game.  I would reduce the USA  score to 6 and the same with the AB - Italy game -  with Italy getting 6 points as well.   


GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
19 Nov 2018, 14:18
#34
19 Nov 2018, 14:18#34

Don't think it will make any difference but I'm open to correction...Ceradyne probably can answer that...he seems to have studied the formula and how it scores or loses points...home/away games, score margins must come into it surely but by how much?

Also what I've noticed over the years in games where top tier 1 sides play lower tiers (called minnows, personally I hate this term as it insulting and disrespectful of less priviledged sides) some "cricket" scores...I refer to way back NZ versus Japan...it was 100 plus or something like that.

That is not as common today as once the top dog is well clear with 20 or so points they tend to take their foot off the pedal...no need to overkill and completely humiliate and risk injury but it seems more than that...I think the big guns have some respect with undeveloped sides, especially in RWC...that is one of the great things of WC rugby...the big guns try to blow each other to death but are more for giving to their struggling weaker brethren...I know it does exist in SA rugby...the Boks have never overkilled...in 1995 they played Romania...there was not much in the score margins if I remember correctly.

MO
MO(NH)Club Pro426 posts
19 Nov 2018, 14:33
#35
19 Nov 2018, 14:33#35
According to Hanson in press interview after game he said that Ireland are No 1 now. Make of that what you like but Ireland would not feel comfortable with that label.
AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
19 Nov 2018, 16:04
#36
19 Nov 2018, 16:04#36

So, Ireland have won 22 of their last 26 tests. 16 of their last 17. Quite a run. They've beaten England, France, Wales, Scotland, Argentina, New Zealand, South Africa and Australia in those past 17 games. 

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
19 Nov 2018, 16:58
#37
19 Nov 2018, 16:58#37
“In the meantime I used my memory of the EOY rankings - but would change my statement as to the gap between AB's and the Springboks. I would appreciate if you can help out iro the End of Year rankings.” Using your own memory instead of facts could be dangerous. The facts are: 1.The calculator is the official one used by World Rugby. You don’t need to wait for the official update from WR if you have all the scores. 2. The “Official update” by WR is only their update of their website on Monday Morning after the games of the weekend. 3. There is no need to speculate about what would the difference be for home and away results. The calculator has a built in tool to cater for home and away results. Had the NZ/Ireland game been in NZ but with the same end result, Ireland would probably have been at the top due to an away win. That is why SA gained so much and NZ lost so much when we beat them in NZ. 4. There is also a provision to cater for the margin. A win by more than fifteen points scores you more ranking points and the same goes for a big loss by more than fifteen points with a bigger loss of points. @Mike. My choice of dates were randomly chosen. Feel free to use your own dates to decide. I have to remind you, though, that your assertion was that “....Under Meyer the Springboks never [repeat NEVER] got within five points from the AB's in the rankings....”. I just chose a few random dates and refuted your assertion right there and then.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
19 Nov 2018, 17:07
#38
19 Nov 2018, 17:07#38
“.I know it does exist in SA rugby...the Boks have never overkilled...“ Not necessarily true. The game between SA and Uruguay where Tonderai Chavanga (was it? ) scored his (only) six tries come to mind. That one was a win by a 100+ margin for SA.
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
19 Nov 2018, 17:21
#39
19 Nov 2018, 17:21#39

Link:    https://rawling.github.io/wr-calc/

Updated weekly...on Monday after games, if you want them on Sunday after all games have been played (very few, it does happen occa sionally on Sunday and if they must be entered after).

Not necessary unless you want them instantly, ie Sunday.

No big deal but sometimes it's nice to know immediately...ie cannot wait till Monday

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Nov 2018, 17:22
#40
19 Nov 2018, 17:22#40

Ceradyne

 I asked a civil question which you ignored can you find the EOY rankings for teams at the end of each year in 2012 to 2015.

Aside from the fact that there are 6-Nations matches that would effect the ratings and balance will only be established in the RC and I gave a number of reasons why the EOY numbers provide more accurate rankings 

So please find the real EOY rankings if you can help.

  

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