Wow Beast climbs into Jake

I wouldn't call Jake an average coach, but it does seem to look like J ake was not the easiest coach to work with......where there is smoke......

I think the fact is that the players - inclusive of Beast - had a lot of reason to be dissatisfied with White and in the end that was why he was forced to resign as Sharks Coach in 2014.   

One of White's problems was  a  rather fractured relationship with the players sometimes stoked up by some of the co-players.   Nobody still knows  who started the so-called fractured relationship between English and Afrikaans speaking players in the Sharks.   There were some really bad stories at the time in the media and some tried to blame Keegan Daniel for the problem.- but his relationship as captain was fine with all players previously.  He was dropped as captain by White.  After that the Shark went downhill fast in 2014.

I think the problem with White probably relates to the fact that his real background was  that of a school-teacher.  That probably account for what happened in his coaching career - despite the fact that he basically was a very good forwards coach.   Over-strict teachers are often good teachers - but children fear them rather than respect them.    As a coach that is normally not a good basis to provide top class coaching to professional sportsmen.

Anyway - I still respect White as a WC winning coach and also admire  him for identifying his own deficiency in backline coaching  and called  Eddie Jones to help out in the 2007 WC.     

Spot on assessment M ike, I fully agree with your post....

Jake saved South African rugby after the disaster of Destroyli.....giving us excellence for  3 years  of his 4 year tenure. It remains the best sustained coaching record since readmission. And our great year in 2009 was still due to the White team.

Of course the Beast never played for the Boks under White, only for the Sharks......who imploded after Jake left.  No doubt Jake wasn't popular with the Sharks.  And no doubt co author, or perhaps author Capostagno saw an angle to sell books.

Moz, Jake did a job for the Boks and the Sharks, but he is an authoritarian like Mallet...and like Mallet he's got the schoolmaster attitude to boot....simply, a bit of a d!ck. Doesn't make him a bad coach, just a d!ck....How times have changed.  When I grew up, you wanted your rugby coaches to be a bit authoritarian...nothing wrong with discipline, it's the Commies who don't like it?

If the Beast is in fact bashing White as suggested it can only because he wants to sell his story to the highest bidder plus promote himself as something special and a gift to SA rugby.

It is always sad to hear of players who have represented their country revert to the "low" and make disparaging comments of what took place behind the field of play and in particular about a manager or coach.

He can thank his lucky stars that he was accepted into the rugby fans hero status while playing and he is going to go down as just another old fart attempting to cash in for the last time.

No loyalty to anyone but himself and the poor Rand.

He was fortunate in the final that the original prop he was to face was injured early otherwise you would all be singing a different tune.

By the way he ain't anywhere close to the class or play of the one and only Os du Randt.

Got it!

Well, Jake's coaching was very well received by outspoken Aussies. That says a lot. 

There is nothing Rassie did that Jake couldn't have done, including defence. He standing with the game isn't without reason. Arguably our best technical coach. Rassie isn't in that company. Could Rassie have achieved what Jake did under the same conditions? I doubt it. Rassie had an easy ride. 

AO

Let me be plain and clear.   I agree that White was very good as a forwards coach - he was totally inept when it came to backline coaching.   As such he was not as good a technical coach as you try and make him out to be,

To be a coach that really inspire his players he has to have good HR.   Nobody can accuse White that he has had any acceptable HR.   That is where his fell down - not only with SARU, but also with the Sharks and Montpellier as well.

To inspire loyalty and admiration is of absolute value in a team environment and make players want to walk through a wall for their coach  and not to disappoint him   That was never the case with White,

It is not always advisable to compare coaches - especially since the personalities and approach  differs.   

Looking at White the team was at a low ebb when White came in.   He managed to get the team improved.  and for the next two seasons the Springboks again became competitive.   However, the team went backwards in 2006 and the pre-WC matches in 2007.   Even though the team won all their RR matches.   I saw all of them - but was seriously disappointed in the Tonga match.  The quarterfinal against Fiji was problematic and the final against the aged English side was an unnecessary arm wrestle, becuase White decided to p lay a game that suited the English team best..  So where were White's positives and negatives:-

Positives -    Good forwards coach

                     Undertanding fully that backline coaching was a problem - so he brought in Jones.

                     Good defense coach

Negatives  -   Poor HR easily causing disenchantment,

                      Technically seriously deficient when it comes to all but forward play.

                      A spotty record on coaching on lower levels (eg Sharks and Montpellier)

Erasmus

Positive     : A real expert in rugby knowledge and use of related skills to cater against opposition targets and exploits opposing teams weaknesses

                   Top class  HR record that attained 100% loyalty from players.

                   Master game plan developed from the start - allowing for variation - technically top class. 

                   Top class club coaching record - Top 12 coach in 2017 when coaching Munster.

No real weaknesses 

There is no way that White within 18 months would have turned around a dispirited and low morale squad into WC winners.   There is also no way that White would have been able to win the RC and WC trophies this year after only 18 months time. .   

I think in all aspects of coaching Erasmus is by far the best coach the Springboks had from 2000.

In the final analysis  the English team this year was far superior to the 2007 English team - neither was the coach on par with Jones, who put one over on Meyer in  2015.    The fact is that the team performance under Erasmus was way superior against the stronger English team and that was due to superior planning and implementation.   After all the winning scores of the Springboks was as follows:-

*    1995     -    15-12    -  won by 3 points

*    2007     -     15-6     -   won by 9 points

*    2119     -     32-12   -   won by 20 points.

The Springboks never scored any tries in 1995 and in 2007.   A technically top coach would have ensured that the team can also manage to score tries but White did not allow the team to play a ball-in-hand game and even when attacking on the English line - they never managed to score tries.   No amount of dreaming up of cloud 9 stories will eliminate that deficiency,        

In 2005 we beat Oz 3 to 1 when they were still Oz....and split the series with NZ. We were in a position to win the Trinations up until the last 10 minutes of the tournament. An excellent year.....only 1998, 2004, 2009 and 2019 were clearly better.

Shezza.

 Dan Cole (32) and was the powerhouse of the England scrum in days gone by. He is not the prop he was for the last couple of years and this final proved that to everyone who watched the game.

Now Sickler (26) is strong as an ox as shown in the semi against NZ. He is fast and has a high ball carry rate and yards gained plus he is quick to the breakdown as opposed to Cole and a powerhouse in the set scrums.

The Beast had his way with Cole in the final and I for one believe he was lucky that Sickler was injured in the first few minutes of the final.

It would have been a different final if Sickler had played for 60 minutes or so.

Sure the Beast was a good prop but to claim he was the best ever to wear the Green and Gold is pure BS.

First he climbed into PdV.

Now Jake.

Whilst his points may be valid, surely there is a code of ethics that players sign in to?

To come out lashing your past coaches in an autobiography reeks of money.

I'm sorry, i find it shocking.

Chip

It's 100% a money making thing.

But it should not be allowed.

For a national player to lambast his ex coaches in an autobiography is 100% disgraceful.

Beast (and he is a real legend in so many ways) should really stop the book launch if it isnt too late. It is very disrespectful.

Well what did you guys really expect from the Beast.....a gentleman with honor.......WRONG.

Dave if Cole is the best you guys could field in England time to get some imports from the Islands down NZ way my friend.

Sickler would have been better in fact anyone other than Cole would have done better.

Not complaining about the win as I am pleased that we won, but overstating and glorifying the Beast's as most did is foolish.

True colors, True colors..............

Mozart is correct - Cole together with Marler was an improved combination compared to the Cole-Vunipola one.  I was very disappointed by both the Vunipola brothers - perhaps they were identified as potential threats and closely watched and dealt with strongly throughout the game 

The other aspect was that Cole practically played for the full match - something that rarely happens with props in tests at present.   However, the Springboks played the way Mitchell described elsewhere and Beast was all over Cole and Vullindpola got nowhere.   Personally I think that the English did miss Winckler - but whether he would have done better in scrumming is debatable.         

Mike, you are the last person who should be commenting on back play. Jake had great attacking teams before Jones ever got involved with the Boks. His 2004 season was exceptional. He was also the last Bok coach to give New Zealand a thrashing. Jake has very good technical understanding of all aspects of the game, and is regarded in the coaching world very highly, so much so that the IRB has sought his services. He is the most revered South African coach for good reason. The most impressively successful considering the constraints which were placed on him. 

Rassie has no record in his entire coaching career of implementing a rounded game. He has no record in his coaching career of tactical versatility to the extent you claim. He has always been among the worst in every attacking statistical category at super rugby level and test level. At test level, even achieving inferior out-put to Coetzee's 2017 Boks, the coach who actually eclipsed Rassie's 2018 season. 

Bubble burst.

What are you talking about?   Why would White have brought in Jones in advancing of backline -performance if everything was 100% with backline play?   The players said that Jones told them things about backline play they have never heard about before from any SA coaches.   

I generally rate White as a good enough coach in general - but very poor on the HR front and in backline coaching.   Technically he made serious mistakes as well.   One example was the RWC  final in 2007 when he decided to play the English team in accordance with their own game plan - thus assisting the English team.  

Your misunderstanding of rugby was cruelly exposed in the present WC and your misrepresentation as to what Erasmus brings to the table  and what he has achieved in 18 months taking over a totally dispirited group of players is very funny.   LMAO 

Nobody before the 2018 test seaso n  thought that the team would be competitive in the WC  at all after the destruction Meyer and Coetzee caused from 2014 to 2017.   Yet the team won the Cup by a bigger margin than ever before and in the process scored tries - which never happened in any WC final before when involving SA.   And you claim that there is no rounded game - stupid to even make that claim with the practical and real situation hitting you in the face. LMAO             

By the way the English 2019 team was much stronger than the 2007 team - the latter had too many has-beens  to be really competitive anyway.   And the stronger team was given a lesson in rugby by the Springboks.   Wake up and see something real for a change,        .   

"Why would White have brought in Jones in advancing of backline"

He didn't. He was a hired as consultant due to his prior experience in a previous World Cup. Only the plastics masquerading as fans peddle that narrative. 

"I generally rate White as a good enough coach in general - but very poor on the HR front and in backline coaching.   Technically he made serious mistakes as well.   One example was the RWC  final in 2007 when he decided to play the English team in accordance with their own game plan - thus assisting the English team."

This actually reflects very badly on you. The 2007 final was close because England heavily contested the breakdown. This is how you put the breaks on a superior attacking side, particularly pre-ELVs. 

"Your misunderstanding of rugby was cruelly exposed in the present WC and your misrepresentation as to what Erasmus brings to the table  and what he has achieved in 18 months taking over a totally dispirited group of players is very funny."

His attacking rugby has been poor. His coaching on attacking rugby is worse than that of Jake, Mallett, Coetzee and Meyer. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. One which has plagued him since his time with the Stormers. There is no record of Rassie being successful on attack. His selections have compounded the problem. You misunderstand that Rassie is everything you profess to hate in a coach. That's why we laugh at you. 

"By the way the English 2019 team was much stronger than the 2007 team - the latter had too many has-beens  to be really competitive anyway.   And the stronger team was given a lesson in rugby by the Springboks.   Wake up and see something real for a change"

The better attacking team, not the stronger team. How did the Boks win? Defence, set pieces, territory. Review the predictions, did anyone else call this game more accurately? I haven't seen it. My prediction still bests your post-game assessment. The 2007 Boks scored 81 tries in 17 tests, the 2019 Boks 52 in 12. Of course, Rassie presides over a cycle with the highest attacking production, yet his output is inferior to that of eras with superior defence, even in the pre-ELV eras. 

How do you like your eggs?

Listen Stupid - keep to facts.   White himself said that he brought in Jones to enhance the coaching of backline players and that is all there was to it,    

Was there  no counter to pressure by the England team at breakdowns?  There was none in 2007 - the backline usage dropped to near to zero in that test in 2007.   The English had their own game plan in 2019 and was evaluated by Erasmus and he found a counter for all their normal strong points, why did I not happen in 2007?  

Read any real evaluation of the game and there were hundreds thus far not even once any came close to your bigoted idiocy.

You cannot compare a non world cup year with a WC year - so go back and looked at what actually happened in 2007, 2015 and 2019 WC series as to scoring of tries.  Be it as it may.  you are still not realizing  that Erasmus's first task was to determine worth while players to be developed into test class players,   Some - like Esterhuizen - fell out of contention for very goo d reasons.

It took Erasmus a year to sort out the  disasters he inherited from  Meyer and Coetzee and your claim that Coetzee was a better coach than Erasmus is extreme lunacy,    .

 Did you get idiocy lessons on rugby from others or did you develop it all by yourself????  LMAO      

Eddie Jones has now been to two World Cup finals as a head coach and lost both of them – with Australia to England on home soil in Sydney in 2003, and now with England to South Africa in Japan.

The one World Cup winning team he was a part of was not his, but Jake White's, when Jones was a much-valued but minor partner as a consultant for 13 weeks up to and including the Springboks' victory over Brian Ashton's England in France in 2007.

If the desire to win the ultimate trophy with a team he can call his own still burns strongly in the heart and mind of the Australian who has been the unmistakable face of English rugby for the past four years, then Jones has the squad to have a fantastic crack at doing it in France in 2023.

@INews

Backline usage was near zero? Interesting. Du Preez handled the ball at least 50 times. There was the Butch run before the illegal trip by and Englishman. You go too far to reach for a defence, because you are always wrong. The 2007 final was a physical arm-wrestle, only someone like you would expect a coach to order the players to throw it around in such games. Look what it did for England last week! Slow learner you are. Or do you simply resist the learning process outright? 

Rassie, the D- attacking coach, is no expert of midfield talent. His blueprint being bashers ala Stompies ball. 

It is not the number of balls a scrummie  handle that determines t he effectiveness if backline play - it is what he does with the ball that has an impact.    

Erasmus  has more expertise in any department of the game than you in utter stupidity try to imply.  He realized for instance that Esterhuizen was a dull round peg in a square hole and dropped him after trying him out numerous times.  Yet the backline score tries - something neither White nor Meyer attained to the level Erasmus did. 

You are such real entertainment - total stupidity is a tragedy and unfortunately you are very near to that  tragedy all the time.  LMAO,        

NB  - I did not know  James scored a try in the WC final in 2007?   If not the one ball carry you mentioned did not portray the total game at all.   

You said backline usage was close to zero. I already showed more than one instance of the ball being handled by a backline player. You asserted that not once did a non-forward handle the ball. 

"He realized for instance that Esterhuizen was a dull round peg in a square hole and dropped him after trying him out numerous times."

Really, do you have a quote? Or is this another of your elaborations on someone else's behalf? 

Where does Rassie rank for attacking output Lügnerin? How many times must you lose these exchanges?