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FORUM / RUGBY /  Write off the Boks for another year

Write off the Boks for another year

Started by Saffolk 28 REPLIES386 VIEWS· 28 Feb 2017, 13:19
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SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Feb 2017, 13:19
#1
28 Feb 2017, 13:19#1

Thanks to the utterly spineless pricks at SA rugby for retaining the utterly useless Coetzee as head coach. Fuck it pisses me off


How can someone so useless be rewarded with another season?


Do these idiots really think a single player will have an ounce of respect for Coetzee as a coach?


What on earth is Franco Smith going to do to change things, while Coetzee is the head?


Sadly a bunch of armatures are running our rugby where selections are politically based


What a bloody sad day for Bok rugby


Instead these wankers could have selected Dave Rennie or Rassie or Ackerman with Swys......but hey ho we have useless Coetzee instead


I give up.....whats the fucking point?  

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
28 Feb 2017, 13:22
#2
28 Feb 2017, 13:22#2
Sadly, I have to agree. Another year of no hopes or expectations with this idiot in charge. Hopefully at the very least they've put in a performance clause.
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
28 Feb 2017, 17:10
#3
28 Feb 2017, 17:10#3
 Well Coetzee blamed everything from the players to SA rugby systems to his late appointment. That alone tells you everything you need to know a out him.
This year will be no different. 
Finally at the end of last year he admitted that he understood what combinations he should have used...IE not slice the Lion's the back line in half by playing an out of form De Allende between Mapoe and Jantjies. He said hindsight is always 20/20. Problem being that idiot could have told him that since day one. Those are the types of excuses he hides behind. 
Then the big scene he made about not asking SARU for help, but immediately jumping on the indaba bandwagon as soon as it suited him. 
The examples are practically endless. 
It's one thing being a shyte coach but another thing all together being spineless.


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Feb 2017, 17:21
#4
28 Feb 2017, 17:21#4
Sure Coetzee is awful but our Super teams are no better. That was always true and the Boks were always better than the sum of the parts. Now they are worse.....in part because of coaching......but mostly because of the lack of effectiveness of our players. No wings, no centres, no scrumhalves, no loosies. Sure there are lots of decent players...but we lack test ready competitors who will take on the likes of NZ when they get on the park.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Feb 2017, 17:29
#5
28 Feb 2017, 17:29#5
The following from timeslive:-
"SA Rugby’s decision to retain Allister Coetzee and the bulk of his staff at the helm of Springbok rugby was as inevitable as it was flawed.

At a time when rugby is crying out for a Springbok team that will again compete at the highest level of the game‚ all we can expect is a holding pattern in mid-table – at best.

There will be no closing the gap on England‚ New Zealand and Ireland at the top of the game in 2017.



Coetzee’s first year in charge yielded a 33% winning ratio – four wins out of 12 Tests – which alone should have been enough to have been sacked.


But that only tells a small part of the story‚ which has been well documented over the previous months of his tenure.


Poor selections‚ muddled gameplans‚ porous defence and regression rather than improvement over the course of last season do not suggest any miraculous turnaround just because Franco Smith has been added to the coaching staff.


Smith‚ the Cheetahs coach‚ has a good track record and will no doubt add some value to the Bok set-up‚ and Brendan Venter‚ the well remunerated consultant coach‚ will also bring huge vats of rugby IQ when he is formally unveiled as ‘defence coach’.

But like a government with a president out of touch‚ all the best people in the world won’t be able to carry out their work if the boss undoes it with one or two bad judgement calls.


    On last year’s November Tour to Britain and Italy‚ this correspondent spoke to several people in the squad and there was discord over tactics and team culture.

    How is that suddenly going to be rectified with all the same personnel in place‚ bar one?


    The outlier is backline coach Mzwandile Stick‚ who was never appointed by Coetzee it has to be said.


    He is the only casualty in the coaching reshuffle announced this week.

    Stick is inexperienced and was too hastily ushered to the top table of rugby‚ but equally his influence in the squad set-up was so minimal that sacking him – and that’s what it was – was unfair.


    Smith essentially took over Stick’s duties on the November tour‚ in an embarrassing situation for both parties‚ but performances were worse.


    That is not a sleight aimed at Smith either as he was parachuted into the squad days before it departed. What was he supposed to do in a handful of sessions?


    The entire set-up and planning last year was a shambles and Coetzee’s late appointment has been used as an excuse for why matters deteriorated so alarmingly last season.


    But if anything‚ the Boks should have been worse at the beginning of the 2016 international season and gradually improved over the course of the year as Coetzee put his plan into action.


    Yet they won three of their first four Tests and then lost seven of the next eight‚ including to Italy in Florence.


    The excuse that there was no time to plan and prepare doesn’t hold up when matters became worse the more time the squad spent together.


    There are myriad reasons why SA Rugby retained Coetzee‚ some which will only be known to the inner circle.


    For one‚ there aren’t too many ‘world-class’ coaches out of contract at the moment so finding a replacement isn’t easy or cheap.


    Secondly it would have cost a huge amount to sack the incumbent because his performance clause doesn’t kick in until year two of his four-year contract (how that was agreed is a mystery).


      There was also political pressure to retain Coetzee and the only solution around the problem was a typical South African rugby answer – fit a square peg into a round hole by adding more lieutenants to prop up an ailing general.


      In a statement on Monday Coetzee promised improvement‚ which when you consider the current standard‚ isn’t promising much at all.


      He also continued with the line that 2016 was ‘unacceptable’ and that there were ‘no excuses’.


      Because it’s so bad that no one is even bothering to come up with any excuses anymore.


      It’s all just hot air that the rugby public must inhale without question."


      In an article in the papers last year it was stated that Coetzee lost the change room -  and that remains the situation.   Coetzee always was a sub-par coach and nothing will change in the year to come.    He is still in charge and the assistant coaches will have to put up with his selection BS.      

      MO
      MozartCaptain49,914 posts
      28 Feb 2017, 17:34
      #6
      28 Feb 2017, 17:34#6
      The only significant game we won last year was the game Morne played against Oz......not just because of Morne, but because his selection committed the team to a clear playing style all the players understood. Simple as that.
      CL
      clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
      28 Feb 2017, 18:40
      #7
      28 Feb 2017, 18:40#7
       Hell - back to useless Morne - what happened the next game -  stooge?   There wasothing about that game - but a total inability to score tries - largely due to Morne and what you call playing style.  
      Playing style - kicking balls away aimlessly - is the style you apparently favour.
      Morne was unlucky he had the useless De Jongh beside him as inside center.
      Finally - no that was not the Boks best game - it was one of their worst they played in and it showed the next week that that type of game is doomed - so keep on being a rugby dud.
      Incidentally the best test they played was the second test against the Irish - where the Springboks ignored the style of Coetzee and M eyer and scored tries coming from the back.    
      DB
      DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
      28 Feb 2017, 19:32
      #8
      28 Feb 2017, 19:32#8
       I'm ever the optimist...I hope and believe we will be slightly better despite AC and SARU....GO BOKKE!
      MO
      MozartCaptain49,914 posts
      28 Feb 2017, 19:56
      #9
      28 Feb 2017, 19:56#9
      Okay, let's accept your premise....what other game was better than our win over Oz. In fact if it was one of the worst, name your top 5.
      sharkbok
      sharkbokCaptain23,260 posts
      28 Feb 2017, 20:23
      #10
      28 Feb 2017, 20:23#10
      If a New Zealand coach could not be made head coach- surely it makes sense to have a Kiwi backline coach.
      The 2 main things needs to improve are-1. Passing and running lines in the backs2. Ruck play in the forwards.
      Get those 2 things right, and SA could be in the top 3.
      If SA do not improve this year- they will get a tournament from death at the world cup seeding
      CL
      clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
      28 Feb 2017, 20:25
      #11
      28 Feb 2017, 20:25#11
       Aby test where the Springboks scored NO tries is despicable and not worth discussing.   
      XA
      XaviPro1,924 posts
      28 Feb 2017, 20:38
      #12
      28 Feb 2017, 20:38#12
       1995 and 2007 RWC finals included??
      MO
      MozartCaptain49,914 posts
      28 Feb 2017, 20:55
      #13
      28 Feb 2017, 20:55#13
      Suddenly there is a huge sucking sound from Tokkie
      KI
      kingcornPro3,695 posts
      28 Feb 2017, 22:31
      #14
      28 Feb 2017, 22:31#14
      We will never see the end of him until the world cup is over. The only problem was that he had no one to do the job for like Rassie, fleck, nienabaar and proudfoot did for him. But now Franco and Brendan is in the mix and all of sudden we will lose with smaller margins and get a 60% win ratio but when it counts against the top teams, will fall flat again.
      MO
      MozartCaptain49,914 posts
      28 Feb 2017, 22:37
      #15
      28 Feb 2017, 22:37#15
       That's about right
      CL
      clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
      28 Feb 2017, 23:23
      #16
      28 Feb 2017, 23:23#16
      Xavi
      Lets take the two world cups referred to and none of the teams scored tries.  
      The matches I  has in mind is where the opposition scored tries and  by accident the Springboks even won the game with penalty kicks without scoring any.
      However, what you forget was that in 2008 World Rugby changed the laws substantially to allow for a more attractive game through the scoring of tries and the answer was a more ball-in-hand game.  New Zealand led the way in making it happen, but virtually all the top teams in the world is trying to change also.   Only dolts In SA like Meyer and Coetzee has refused to implement same and the results in 2015 and 2016 clearly show how far we have gone down.   

          
      CL
      clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
      28 Feb 2017, 23:28
      #17
      28 Feb 2017, 23:28#17
       Mozart
      I know you are dim when it comes to rugby.   By referring to Morne in the Aussie test reminds me about Morne in the test in 2014 and the fatal bugger-up he made  in that test.  
      Now go and play the ostrich - put your head in a hole in the ground and think that by doing that people would not see how huge a fool from a rugby perspective you really are.
      XA
      XaviPro1,924 posts
      28 Feb 2017, 23:35
      #18
      28 Feb 2017, 23:35#18
       I still believe that by making the ruck and tackle area a free for all we would see more ball in hand and tries. 
      Bring back rucking!!
      BO
      bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
      28 Feb 2017, 23:48
      #19
      28 Feb 2017, 23:48#19
       In light of the transformation targets set for the RWC19, our quota numbers will need to increase exponentially .............plus there's absolutely noways to halt the overseas talent drain. We're fcked, & I predict that we'll end this season scraping into the top ten .

      SA
      Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
      01 Mar 2017, 12:27
      #20
      01 Mar 2017, 12:27#20
       

      Moz you are speaking utter crap as usual……look no further than Lancaster vs Eddie Jones as a coach……under Lancaster England were a bunch of no hopers, under Eddie Jones the exact same players are now on the verge of breaking a record……you spot the difference???

       

      We have more talent than England have by some distance…….there are very few world beaters in the England side……it’s a confident, well drilled side thanks to Eddie empowering them and giving them direction in the modern way the game is played…….gone is the crash bash under Lancaster, the same outdated model useless Coetzee employs

       

      As for no wings……..what utter rubbish…….Combrink, Ulengo, Ismiel, Senatla, Kolbe, Sergel Petersen and Skosan are all better than anything England have to offer other than Watson

       

      As for centres……..de Allende, Jessie Kriel, Serfontein, Odendaal, Frans Venter, Vorster, Janse v/Rensburg and Am are all far far better than the likes of average Farrell and little Joseph

       

      We have class acts at 9 in Faf, Hougaard and Reinach………….Faf was simply brilliant for the Lions last year, but supressed under Coetzee, Hougaard was brilliant playing here in the UK

       

      As for loosies, the only England loosie that would live with the standard we have on board is Billy…….the likes of Haskell, Robshaw and Wood are as bog ordinary as they come

       

      We have more depth in the loosies than ever……..Marcel Coetzee, Jaco Kriel, Carr, Kolisi, Notshe, Labs, Kwagga, Jacques du Plessis, Kirsten, du Preez x 2, Elstatdt, Oupa, Mtembu, Arno Botha, Liebenberg, Ackerman, Brink etc

       

      With the young talent we have at our disposal, something England only can dream of, we should be riding the crest of a wave under a merit coach. Last I checked we had a SA side in the Super final last year and the likes of the Bulls and Stormers under new coaches were certainly heading in the right direction. This years Super comp has only just started so the pass judgement is slightly premature.

       

      The likes of Dave Rennie, Rassie, Ackerman/Swys would have us challenging the Kiwi’s for top honours – hell look what they have to work with:

       

      15. Willie / Gelant / Coetzee

       

      14. Combrink / Ulengo / Ismiel / v/Wyk

       

      13. Jessie Kriel / Janse v/Rensburg / Vorster / Am

       

      12. de Allende / Serfontein / Odendaal / Frans Venter / du Preez

       

      11. Senatla / Sergel Petersen / Kolbe / Skosan

       

      10. Pollard / Jantjies / Lambie / Goosen

       

      9. Faf / Hougaard / Reinach/ Groom

       

      1. Kitshoff / Nyakane / du Toit / Pierre Schoeman / Kebble

       

      2. Bismark / Marx / Akers / Ntshe / Scara

       

      3. Malherbe / Marcel v/d Merwe / Koch / Wilco Louw / v/Dyk / Coenie

       

      4. Etzebeth / Lood / Willemse / Jenkins

       

      5. PSDT / Snyman / Ruan Botha / Lewies / Erasmus

       

      6. Jaco Kriel / Kolisi / Carr / Labs

       

      7. Jacques du Plessis / du Preez / du Preez / Kirsten / Mostert / Elstatdt / Oupa / Ackerman

       

      8. Marcel Coetzee / Notshe / Arno Botha / Mtembu / Liebenberg

       

      In all the years I have followed SA rugby, never have we ever had such quality depth in young talent – it’s a disgrace that we have such an incompetent coach at the helm, wasting the best years of these players

       

      Not a single one of these players will respect Coetzee after last year’s debacle

       

      Moz as per usual you have it all wrong……its as simple as Lancaster vs Eddie as the measure…….Coetzee is so much worse than Lancaster

      CL
      clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
      01 Mar 2017, 12:35
      #21
      01 Mar 2017, 12:35#21
       Dave
      You should know by now that Mozart use this site to splash his twisted ideas on this site,   He knows zero about rugby and stikll believe in the kick away and defend idea espoused by Meyer, White and Coetzee and harken back to his former favourites - most recently Morne Steyn, Pienaar and Fat Fransie.   His hatred of some players are notorious and he continues to splash twisted match reports - nothing new in his case.  
      CL
      clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
      01 Mar 2017, 12:35
      #22
      01 Mar 2017, 12:35#22
       Dave
      You should know by now that Mozart use this site to splash his twisted ideas on this site,   He knows zero about rugby and stikll believe in the kick away and defend idea espoused by Meyer, White and Coetzee and harken back to his former favourites - most recently Morne Steyn, Pienaar and Fat Fransie.   His hatred of some players are notorious and he continues to splash twisted match reports - nothing new in his case.  
      MO
      MozartCaptain49,914 posts
      02 Mar 2017, 00:23
      #23
      02 Mar 2017, 00:23#23
      Eddie has Coles, Hartley, the Vunipolas, Itoje, Launchbury, Daily, Nowell, Farrell and Youngs to work with.....all competitors and clever players. Every one of these players would walk the current Bok team, although it would be close in the locks and at hooker. Dave you guys wanted a new team....now you have it, and it's flopped. It's the coaching everybody screams. But the coaching was awful under HM according to you and Tokkie. So why have we taken a further step down? It's obvious the new team is much worse than the old team.
      WA
      WardadPro6,663 posts
      02 Mar 2017, 00:31
      #24
      02 Mar 2017, 00:31#24
       Geez I hope you guys get  yer act together ,it is no fun at all kicking you guys when your down.Hell I feel a wee bit sad seeing replays of the ABs tearing the Boks apart last year ,we need you guys at your best to sharpen our boys up !
      MO
      MozartCaptain49,914 posts
      02 Mar 2017, 00:51
      #25
      02 Mar 2017, 00:51#25
      We have loads of good provincial players....almost no players with the test match x factor. We are also trying to instantly play AB rugby.....Ireland isn't, England isn't, Scotland isn't,, ,they are playing their traditional games embellished with a bit better handling among the forwards. The Boks have a style of play which has had huge success over the years. As other teams have gotten better we need to also innovate, but not at the expense of our traditional strengths. What we saw from the Lions and Cheetahs on Saturday is a recipe for disaster.
      GI
      giveithornsRookie42 posts
      02 Mar 2017, 08:43
      #26
      02 Mar 2017, 08:43#26
      Based on the easy ride our teams had in last year's Super Rugby competition, mostly avoiding the NZ'ers all together, all of our "successful" franchises would have failed to make the top 6. Okay, maybe the Lions would have sneaked in, but none of the others would have had a sniff. And the moral of that story is this. I don't think we have the abundance of players that some here seem to think we have. However, we do have good enough players to be better than 6th in the world. 
      BE
      Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
      02 Mar 2017, 08:54
      #27
      02 Mar 2017, 08:54#27
       Dr Moz should consider what that Kiwi coaching at the Stormers said.Talent is not the big problem that it is made out to be but a brainless approach to the game and I include all the things negatively affecting the game.
      One bright spot is the inclusion of Dr Brendon Venter in the coaching staff. He is a genuine rugby brain and hopefully will rule the roost behind the scenes.However, the quota situation will get worse, more players will depart and things do look gloomy. That said sport can be unpredictable and it is possible that we could improve on our number 6 ranking. What is certain is we will not regain our number one spot until there is and  complete revolution where merit is adopted and the necessary changes so often outlined are made.
      BE
      Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
      02 Mar 2017, 08:58
      #28
      02 Mar 2017, 08:58#28
       Giveithorns the talent is ruined. We see schoolboys playing more creative rugby than senior sides. The lack of creativity and skills should be immediately apparent to even the most dopey viewers.

      CL
      clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
      02 Mar 2017, 09:06
      #29
      02 Mar 2017, 09:06#29
       There is a problem looming for the Government insofar as quotas are concerned and it is likely to end up in the Constitutional Court.   Afriforum has asked the Department to provide them with their quota requirements and is evaluating it at present.   They already expressed  serious reservations about the issue and is likely to take it to Concourt - where matters are really looked at strictly on the basis of the Constitution.   Discrimination based on race is not acceptable and that is what is effectively happening in this case in rugby and cricket.
      Beeno - you are right about the talent issue - Mozart looks only at the has-beens and never-has-beens and regard them only as talented players - nobody at present is acceptable.
      If we had decent coaches and a decent game plan there would be no problem - that is where things have gone awry in the first place.   You have dud coaches with dud game plans and nobody will win anything.   Meyer started it and Coetzee is even worse than him.    
      Problem for the assistant-coaches is that they will end up with dud selected by Coetzee and then told to fix the problems.    There are some players picked by Co etzee who never was and never will be international standard. 
        
      — END OF THREAD —

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