What the hell is Bavuma doing batting ahead of v/Zyl

Bavuma is a regulation quota, an insult to test cricket and to national honours. They'll persist with him and maybe he'll prove me wrong, if he does, please smack me across the head with a baseball bat. 

Don't worry it just takes a few years to determine if he is good enough or not. It's called giving someone an opportunity. Best of luck. 

Temba Bavuma:
1st test Innings - batting at 6 - 10 runs.
2nd test innings - batting at 6 - 15 runs.

Jaques Kallis:
1st test Innings - batting at 6 - 1 run.
2nd test innings - batting at 7 - 7 runs.

 Ceradyne....care to advise who the teams Kallis faced as opposed to a weak WI side in a test faced by Bavuma.
Not knocking Bavuma but .............

 You mean - what the hell is Bavuma doing in the team ahead of Riosouw?   Ever heard of politicial intference in sport?

Arthur John

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 785 RE: What the hell is Bavuma doing batting ahead of v/Zyl
January 05, 2015, 08:19:01 Ceradyne....care to advise who the teams Kallis faced as opposed to a weak WI side in a test faced by Bavuma.
Not knocking Bavuma but .............

 

Here are JK's first 10 successive results from debut in tests

 

Given the opposition, thankfully they left him to be the great he turned out to be

 

1 off 12 balls vs England

7 off 65 balls vs England

6 off 30 balls vs Australia

39 off 155 balls vs Australia

0 off 12 balls vs Australia

2 off 26 balls vs Australia

2 off 15 balls vs Australia

61 off 157 balls vs Pakistan

15 off 57 balls vs Australia

101 off 279 balls vs Australia 

After 10 tests, an average of 23.4, and without that hundred his average would have been 14.88 after 9 tests and 14.75 after 8

 Yep Bavuma ahead of Rossouw or Miller is an insult. He clearly has no idea against quick bowlers.
Looks a nice little provincial but, his first class average of 35 with over 70 matches says it all.

 Dave 
Bavuma is also a very poo fielder - they are struggling to find a place where he could field without doing too much damage.    
Problem is he is just not suitable for selection - fact.  

 It is doubtful, very doubtful that anyone with a 35 first class average after 70 matches will cut it at test level. Bavuma is another quota pick by the looks of it.Harmer is showing some promise? He is 25 with a first class bowling average of 32. Not that great. Batting average is 28 with a first class century.Personally I think he could be a nice addition. Wonder what those averages would look like for 2014. he is probably on a nice upward curve.

 Arthur John

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 785 RE: What the hell is Bavuma doing batting ahead of v/Zyl
January 05, 2015, 08:19:01  Ceradyne....care to advise who the teams Kallis faced as opposed to a weak WI side in a test faced by Bavuma.
Not knocking Bavuma but .............

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Do not read stuff into what I have said. I was not trying to imply that he could be the next Jacques Kallis or something. I was merely responding to Lestat's remark that we should not judge the guy after two innings. Jacques Kallis had many critics in his early days and a lot of people could not wait to see the back of him in those days. Nobody in SA would touch Kevin Pietersen. There were only two people who saw something in him and I don't think that any of us have the knowledge to challenge their views. The one was Clive Rice, who got him to England after CSA told him, Rice, to p!ss off and the other was Shaun Pollock who personally tried to persuade Ali Bacher to find a way to keep him in SA.


Cricket is a strange old game. Age is not always such a big factor than it is in other sports and not all promising youngsters has to pushed into the big sides asap. There are many examples in cricket where youngsters failed because they were pushed too early. The Tendulkar, Eddie Barlows, Darryl Cullinans, etc of the world are few and far between. Yes, I know, Darryl Cullinan is a but of an arsehole but he was a good batsman. His only problem was Shane Warne. There were youngsters with massive potential that were thrown to the wolves, especially black players. Think Victor Mpitsang, Mfoneku Ngam, Monde Zondeki, etc. On the flipside, there are many players who were late bloomers and then there were also those who carried on playing in their late thirties and forties.

 Graeme Smith's technique and "range of strokes" was questioned until his retirement. Amla was dropped and went back to his union, relinquished the captaincy of his provincial side and worked on his technique. In fact, he was useless in his first spell in test cricket. He still has a few flaws but he has worked around it. He has a strange movement with his bat, just before he hits the bal, amongst others. 

So, just for clarity, you also agree that it is too soon to shoot down Bavuma as just another quota selection?

 Yes, you are correct I have no issues with the guy.
Trust he can become another Kallis.....because South African cricket can ill afford not to have him perform.
Thanks for the info guys.

Saffex, you say Bavuma ahead of Miller is an insult as Bavuma's first class average is 'only' 35 but you do realize it's higher than Millers? 
Don't get me wrong, I think Miller, V/Zyl, Roussow and Bavuma are all promising and the beauty of tests against Windies is that it's nice chance of giving people a chance.
I'm not saying Bavuma will be a success but at least give the boy a few games to show what he can do, and if it doesn't work - it doesn't work out.

On to the game - good to see Harmer doing well!

 Difference is that Miller looks the part and has made the grade at ODI level. Miller has a great technique and it's now time we see him and Rossouw involved in the test arena.
Bavuma looks susceptible to pace and the WI quick are hardly a true test. If he played against England and Oz they would have him for breakfast. He is a pure quota selection. He does not have it. 
Comparing Kallis s first few innings is laughable, he was not 24 at the time, he was all of 20 or had just turned 21 and certainly had not had over 70 matches behind him

 You're right, Miller is a talent but let's give Temba a chance he may surprise a few. The one person in the test team that needs to go immediately is Alviro!
What do you guys think is our best test XI, ODI XI and T20 XI?

AgPleezDeddy

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 193 RE: What the hell is Bavuma doing batting ahead of v/Zyl
January 06, 2015, 02:10:08  You're right, Miller is a talent but let's give Temba a chance he may surprise a few. The one person in the test team that needs to go immediately is Alviro!
What do you guys think is our best test XI, ODI XI and T20 XI?

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Agree. I have always kind of backed him but he is done now.

Saff, I am not comparing Bavuma with Kallis. I was just trying to point out that you cannot judge a player after two innings. As to batting position................. I do not believe that it is always a case of the better batsman having to bat at the higher position. If that was the case, then Kallis should have been an opening bat for ages.


In any case, speaking of Kallis...... has there ever been a better cricket player in recent times? Yes, I know that some would immediately come up with Garfield Sobers but I don't know, and what is more, will there really be another Kallis soon? Just look at his test career summary. He has only ever had one pair (out for a duck in both innings of a test match) in his entire career of 18 years. He has played 166 matches in this time. That is just over 9 matches per annum, on average. Tendulkar has played 200 in 24 years at an average of just over 8 matches per annum. Where Satchin beats him is that Satchin has never had a pair and he has two less ducks than Kallis but as an overall cricket player, Satchin is nowhere near Kallis. With his bowling figures, he could easily have made the team as a bowler alone and he was contributing with the ball right until he retired.


Known As: Jacques Kallis  ODI Profile & Statistics      Born: 16/10/1975 T20 Profile & Statistics      Current Age: 39 years 82 days   Matches: 166 (1995-2013) Bats: Right Handed View Video Clips featuring Jacques H Kallis Bowls: Right Arm Fast Medium
Batting Innings: 280 Not Outs: 40 Aggregate: 13289 Average: 55.37 Highest Score: 224 50s: 58 100s: 45 200s: 2 300s: 0 Ducks: 16 Pairs: 1 Opened Batting: 0 Scoring Rate 45.98   Bowling Overs: 3372.0 Balls: 20232 Maidens: 848 Runs: 9535 Wickets: 292 Average: 32.65 5 Wickets in Innings: 5 10 Wickets in Match: 0 Best (Innings): 6/54 Best (Match): 9/92 None for 100 0 Economy Rate: 2.83 Strike Rate: 69.29   Fielding Catches: 200 Most Catches (Innings): 4 Most Catches (Match): 6   Captaincy Matches/Won/Lost: 2/1/1 Tosses Won: 1 (50.00%)

 If you are 24 and have played  70 first class matches with an average of 35 you have proven you are not ready for test cricket. Ditto David Miller with his 33 average and at 25 years of age.Maybe its just poor selections Thankfully bavuma will be dropped as Duminy is back and has shown some improvement more recently.I do not have the time t owatch domestic cricket but here are some 2014 averages. Difficult to think why anybody would select a player with an average of 35! Batting averages Player Mat Inns Runs HS Ave CN Ackermann 3 6 282 107* 56.4 (Eastern Province, Warriors) FD Adams 1 1 57 57 57 (Boland) HM Amla 3* 3 304 208 101.33 (South Africa) F Behardien 4 8 472 96 78.66 (Titans) WE Bell 5 9 326 98* 40.75 (Griqualand West) P Botha 6 6 316 92 63.2 (Free State) TA Bula 6 10 374 94 46.75 (Easterns) TB de Bruyn 4 8 326 95 40.75 (Titans) Q de Kock 3 5 193 59 48.25 (Lions, South Africa) AB de Villiers 3* 3 310 152 103.33 (South Africa) MN Erlank 7 7 563 163* 112.6 (Free State, Knights) BC Fortuin 5 8 248 66 49.6 (North West) RH Frenz 1 2 91 55 45.5 (North West) AGS Gous 6 6 295 95 49.16 (Free State) DA Hendricks 8 15 512 105 42.66 (Gauteng, Lions) NB Hornbuckle 2 3 128 82 42.66 (South Western Districts) (Dolphins, South Africa) CA Ingram 3 6 326 111 54.33 (Warriors) H Klaasen 5 8 297 94 49.5 (Northerns) (Namibia) EC Kriek 5 9 362 133* 51.71 (Boland) W Lategan 5 7 379 138* 63.16 (South Western Districts) RE Levi 2 3 127 81 42.33 (Cape Cobras) ND McKenzie 1 2 169 125 84.5 (Lions) R McLaren 2 3 254 126* - (Dolphins) PJ Malan 5 9 474 182 59.25 (Western Province) (Titans) A Mgijima 4 5 139 71 46.33 (Western Province) S Muthusamy 6 10 342 135* 48.85 (KwaZulu-Natal) LC Ngoepe 5 9 283 81 40.42 (Western Province) JL Ontong 2 3 137 94 45.66 (Cape Cobras) VL Orros 4 4 124 109 41.33 (Free State) WD Parnell 2 3 102 74* 51 (Warriors) BJ Pelser 6 11 375 97 41.66 (Lions, North West) AJ Pienaar 3 5 277 136* 69.25 (Knights) AJN Price 5 10 403 167 44.77 (Eastern Province) DS Rosier 2 4 222 137 55.5 (Griqualand West) MN Samuels 3* 5 268 101 53.6 (West Indies) RS Second 4 7 375 113 53.57 (Knights) AR Swanepoel 5 10 447 124 49.66 (Griqualand West) RK Terblanche 6 6 222 74* 44.4 (Free State) GM Thomson 6 10 445 144 49.44 (Easterns) TL Tsolekile 3 6 259 113 51.8 (Lions) MY Vallie 4 6 254 117 50.8 (Cape Cobras, Western Province) PJ van Biljon 5 8 356 175 50.85 (Free State, Knights) NJ van den Bergh 5 8 289 100* 57.8 (North West) RE van der Merwe 4 8 471 205* 67.28 (Titans) VB van Jaarsveld 2 3 138 71 46 (Dolphins) (Free State) MN van Wyk 2 3 111 57 55.5 (Dolphins) S van Zyl 4* 5 329 104* 109.66 (South Africa, Western Province) DJ Vilas 2 3 178 89 59.33 (Cape Cobras) LR Walters 4 7 257 115 42.83 (Eastern Province)

@Beeno. You have to be careful with cricket stats. Most of those averages are form less than ten innings and most of them have at lests one big score amongst the scores. I normally, when looking at scores over so few innings, take away the HS to get a better idea. Over years the highest scores do not have such a big influence but when you work with a few innings, they have a massive influence.


A few examples:

Player Mat Inns Runs HS Ave CN Ackermann 3 6 282 107* 56.4
If you take the HS out and look at his average for the other five innings that he has batted, his average drops to 35 (175 runs in the remaining five innings)

GM Thomson 6 10 445 144 49.44 (Easterns)
If you take the HS out and look at his average for the other five innings that he has batted, his average drops to 33.44 (301 runs in the remaining nine innings)

S van Zyl 4* 5 329 104* 109.66
If you take the HS out and look at his average for the other five innings that he has batted, his average drops to 56.25 (225 runs in the remaining four innings)

In addition, Duminy is a great limited overs player but he is no great test player. He is just not consistent enough. I am not saying that he should not be in the test sde but he is not really as great as some would like to believe. His average for 2014 is higher than his career average but he has had two big scores which inflates his average. The rest of his season was not spectacular by any means. He had one fifty and apart from the 123, 100* and the 55 (against Zim) he had nothing to write home about. His other scores were 3,3,14,43, 8,14,4, etc. Before 2014 his last 100 was early in 2012 and in between that 100 and the 123 in 2014 he had nothing of note, bar a fifty in 2012 and a fifty in 2013. His career average is boosted by two big seasons, i.e. 2012.

These are his figures by season:

Year Mat Inns NO 100s 50s 0s HS   Runs Avg S/R Ca St 2008 2 3 1 1 1 0 166 217 108.50 46.17 4 0 2009 6 11 1 0 2 1 73* 243 24.30 35.95 5 0 2010 4 6 0 0 0 2 36 58 9.67 48.33 3 0 2012 5 6 3 1 1 1 103 271 90.33   2 0 2013 4 6 0 0 1 1 57 99 16.50 43.04 1 0 2014 6 11 3 2 1 0 123 392 49.00 41.84 4 0 Overall (6) 27 43 8 4 6 5 166 1280 36.57 42.84 19 0

 Thanks windpomp but as I said I do not watch domestic cricket. I know that a few innings dont tell the story. However I posted this as I  wondered if from this list of guys doing well in 2014 there might be some one more deserving than Bavuma?Duminy has not been consistent at test level but has upped his game and his spin bowling is useful.
I am not that star struck about our team. Problems are looming. Dale and Morne are getting on. Philander cant operate on all surfaces and needs a seaming wicket to be effective.
Opener needs to be sorted. How good are Van Zyl and Elgar against top opposition.We do not have a class allrounder for the first time in years. That sk a big problem re team balance.
What class acts are coming through I wonder. Ou snapster would point immediately to the latest Nuffield side! Maybe there ar e some diamonds out there?

 I cannot watch any SA domestic cricket at all, so I can only comment on the international players that I see playing. We get almost all the S15 and CC games over here but zero of SA domestic cricket, which is understandable. I have no idea of what is in the pipeline as far as the future is concerned. My only comment about Bavuma was that we cannot judge him on two matches.


It is all well to have a read on players "coming through" and Nuffield sides, etc, but that does not mean a lot if you do not see them perform. The information that is available is mostly opinions of scribes and that is almost always based on own opinions, so I do not pay too much attention to that. It is easy to draw up a list of players but to really know what they are capable of.....................? Not that easy, IMO.