Yah....Sinwar is defeated

Don't think it was an air strike, reading reports that he was kille d by a regular Israeli solider on the ground. Looks to have been a chance encounter rather that something Israel had planned.

Yeah, seems to have been a "lucky" kill .... albeit a good one

Lekker - but what will follow?   Sinwar a a bad bastard - but there are  at least 10 equally bad or even wors e  bastards to succeed hin - only the Ayatollah would know who it would be,                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

Bloody scum involve their kids in war, hide behind women and children, and then want to cry and plug victim.

Israel should just fully flatten the place, kick them all out, and claim it for themselves.

That's a pretty contradictory position you hold, on one hand you condemn Hamas for using women and children as human shields but are you not aware those same women and children would be affected by your preposed ethnic cleansing? Also where you are preposing Israel kicks them out to? They have literally no where to go.

Wrong Stav - they are welcomed with open arms in the USA by the preemt US Government/  You may nt be aware of the pro-Hamas riots at US Univarsities organized by the terrorist subsidiaries  of the Democratic Party BLM and Antifa and where the main shouts were "Death to Israel" n "Death to America" and Jewish people being threatened by extermination.

Some of te agitators and rioters were arrested and released within 24 hours without anybody being charged of damages running into millions  caused by the rioters.   The funders of the riots  were Soros and the Pritzker Family Trust,

In the murderous and hugely destrucive riots in US inner cities in July and August 2020 the funders and orgnizrs were he same people involved in the Hamas riots this year,     .                  

Also Stav = Israel is guilty because Palestine started an unprovoked war with Israel.

Palestine didn't start a war with Israel, Hamas started a war but sure if you want to think all this started on October 7th, I can't stop from you being you ignorant.

All hail the mighty and virtuous, Stav.

All hail the heroic and Plum on his heroic and valiant struggle to protect us all from the horrors of virtue signalling.

Also you didn't answer my question on where the Palestinian's where supposed to go during your proposed ethnic cleansing of Gaza?

"Oh look Mike supports ethnic cleansing in Gaza, not a surprise considering he supports it in Ukraine.  

How on earth did you come to that conclusion?

How on earth did you come to that conclusion?

Wrong Stav - they are welcomed with open arms in the USA by the preemt US Government.

Of course Mike is talking complete nonsense about the USA as normal but he seems to have zero problem with the Palestinians being forced out of Gaza.

No, after said they have nowhere to go, he said they are welcomed in the USA by some...doesn't mean he supports the idea and even if he did, it's still way off ethnic cleansing,  don't you think?

Its irrelevant if a country would take them in or not, if they forceable expelled from their homes that's ethic cleansing. 

Plug Victim?

No, he did not say they should be forcefully removed... Plum said that...stop the BS.

Why would Mike say America would take in the Palestinians if he was wasn't okay with them being forced out of Gaza.

It's not something a person would say if they where against such an action.

But hey why don't we just ask Mike himself. Mike what's your opinion on ending the conflict between Israel-Palestine?

So lets summarize it for you.    I think that their remains the need for a peacefull settlement of ME problems between the Israeli nd Muslim nations in the ME as was the case in the Abrahamic Accords negotiated by the Trump Administration - but totally destroyed by Biden and co.

In the first instance the Jews should stop settling people in the area they conquered from Jordan and the area should become an independent country on its own - where human rights of people are respected,    In effect the main troublemaking coutry in th ME is Iran.   They have had proxies fighting Civil wars in Yemen. Syria, Iraq, Libya, Somalia  and even as far South as Mozambique.  Trump with the assistance of Congress got a law passsed that oil sales dollars of Iran be frozen as long as Iran supports proxy wars and  terrorist organizations.    Biden unfrozed  illeglly hundrds of billions  of frozen dollars and the Iraq Government used that for building up their armament industry and funding of terrorist orgnizations like Hamas and Hezbollah.

In the end the following ME countries were driven by the  untrusted Biden Administration into joining the organization of countries hating the USA called BRICS with Turkey still on the applicion list:-

Egypt, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Iran.

Aside from Turkey, Nigeria, Algeria, Argentina, Indonesia and Mexico are on the list of  BRICS appliation list countries.

 In the meantime an estimated 11 million of illegal migrants  entered the USA though the open Mexican Border.    Amongst those are at least a million comes from Muslim countries and allegedly of those circa 50 000 are on the terrorist watch list released into he USA.   The recent pro-Hamas riots at US Universities showed how really radical those Muslims are and how strong in the USA they became.

So what do I think should be done to solve the problem:-

The Middle East

1    Re-enforce the implementtion of the Abrahamic Accords

2    Grant real independence  of the Palestinian Arabs living in the area and assist and help democracy in the independent country to be established  in the areas occupied by Israel generations ago - that includes .Gaza and the West Bank area,

3    Make sure grant funding of Western Governments to the new indepeent country to be established country is not used to promote terrorism.

In the USA and EU countries

Close their borders and only allow real refugees into their countries.    In the USA the lists of "refugees" include -

*    475 000 criminals sentenced for murder and serious cases of sexual crimes in ther countries of origin set free by their Govenments and sent to the USA with the aid of the Mexican cartels,   

*     circa 50 000 terrorists from radical Muslim countries now somewhere in the USA/

So why not take all Gaza residents  into the USA?    It will make up only adding  25% of the "refugees" at present in the USA.    

Promotion of democracy is the answer to the world problems and for that firm policies are needed - ultra-left human craziness is not the answer,

    .               

Send all of them to Ireland.

Thousands of  additional loose cannons would not be noticed and would blend into the existing population without any problems.

Problem solved Stav.

CM, many other Muslim countries don't want these folks either......

Wonder why other than a different Muslim sect, but they are all brothers NO!

SHAME.

CM, many other Muslim countries don't want these folks either......

Wonder why other than a different Muslim sect, but they are all brothers NO!

SHAME.

Lets look at the number of Palestinians in Muslim countries shall we.

3,240,000 in Jordan

630,000 Syria

405,582 Lebanon

280,245 Saudi Arabia 

270,245 Egypt

100,000 Qatar

80,000 Kuwait

57,000 Iraq

55,000 Yemen

44,000 Libya

Algeria 4,030

Now Muslim countries have good reason to not want to open the flood gates to more Palestinian's. Many of those countries are on their knees economically and can't accommodate them. But also they know only too well that if the Palestinian's seek refuge in their country Israel will never permit them to return.

I wonder who voted Hamas into power?

Stav - they intimidate the poor Palestinians into voting for them.

As yes the Palestinians voted for Hamas therefore they deserve everything they get?

Lets take a look at the numbers of the 2006 election which Hamas won in Gaza. 

Population of Gaza was 1.35 million back then. Hamas won 45.5% of the vote with a voter turn out of 77%. So 35% of Gaza voted for Hamas in 2006. 

Hamas primarily campaigned on a platform of anti corruption, as its main political rival Fatah was and still is seen as being widely corrupt.

Exit polling from election indicated 79.5% supported a peace Agreement with Israel. 75.2% said Hamas should change its policy towards Israel (as in its confrontational policy with Israel) and 78.1% thought Hamas would combat corruption. 

Fatah rejected the outcome of the election resulting in an armed conflict between them and Hamas which lead to Fatah's ejection from Gaza and the armed take over of Gaza by Hamas.

There has been no election in Gaza since 2006. Gaza's current population now stands at 2.1 million. That mean's at most 22.75% of the current Gaza population voted for Hamas 18 years ago.

I wonder who covers for Hamas as they plan their attacks, hide their weapons and everything else they do?

Stav - Hamas intimidate Palestinians into covering for them.

I'm sure Hamas do have their sympathisers and supporters among the population. It probably gone up an awful lot since Israel's response to October 7th and I'm also sure Hamas who you know are an "armed" militant group can intimidate Palestinian's into involuntary cooperation. I mean what can an unarmed Palestinian family do if Hamas show up and say they want to use their house to fire rockets at Israel?

...and you slowly start to understand that it's a completely circular argument. Even though it's very clear that Palestine supports Hamas. Polling data shows that 71% of Palestine in fact supports Hamas

How much of that is down to Israel's action since October 7th? Polling conducted in Gaza in September 2023 just before October 7th showed only 20% of the population supported military action against Israel. 54% supported a two state solution, only 27% indicated they would vote for Hamas. A poll taken in Gaza from earlier in 2023 had 62% support for Hamas maintaining its ceasefire with Israel. 

Now I'm not blind to polling that show most Palestinian's don't view Hamas's actions on October 7th as war crimes and nor does much of the Muslim world, Arab media played down the atrocities. But the Israeli's have the same wilful blindness to their own crimes. 

So should stupid hurt? 

You must be in constant agony.

Are many of the so called innocent Palestinians actually just really terrorist supporters?

Half the population of Gaza is under 18. Are most of those children terrorist supporters?

All very interesting stuff.

Ignorance is not interesting, its depressing.

Bomb the living piss out of them and let the rest run for their lives to whatever Arab country will take them in.

I suppose expecting a take from you more complex than Israel good, brown stinky Arab's bad bomb them to hell was a bit much.

‘If they forceable (sic)  expelled from their homes that equals ethnic cleansing’? Really…that’s the same as Dachau?

What’s your view on the IRA activities then Anger.

"Why would Mike say America would take in the Palestinians if he was wasn't okay with them being forced out of Gaza."

Because you said they've got nowhere to go, nobody will take them...and the USA  has taken some...BTW, would that mean you will are in favor of them if they had anywhere to go? No it doesn't. 

"It's not something a person would say if they where against such an action."

Nonsense,  we all know that Mike is against this kind of migration to the US.

"But hey why don't we just ask Mike himself. Mike what's your opinion on ending the conflict between Israel-Palestine?"

Maybe you should have asked before you accused him of being an advocate for ethnic cleansing. 

‘If they forceable (sic)  expelled from their homes that equals ethnic cleansing’? Really…that’s the same as Dachau?

The forceable expulsion of a people from its home does equal ethnic cleansing, it doesn't require people to be killed.

Who said it was same as Dachau? Think your confusing ethnic cleansing with genocide.

What’s your view on the IRA activities then Anger

IRA activities where terrorism which needless to say I didn't support. 

What's your view on the Irgun, Haganah and Lehi activities then Moz?

Maybe you should have asked before you accused him of being an advocate for ethnic cleansing. 

I asked him and I mostly got a nonsensical reply. Lets try again. Mike, Plum has suggested flattening Gaza and kicking out the Palestinians. I asked where the Palestinians were supposed to go if such an occurrence occurred, you responded they could go to America. Which to me it sounded like the response of someone who is okay with that course of action. So do you think the Israel should be able or allowed do that if they wanted too? If you don't then I'll retract my statement on you supporting ethnic cleansing in Gaza. 

Yea, Stav we know. The harder you virtue signal for the Hamas supporting Palestinians the better you feel about yourself.

Gotta love that virtue signalling retort, you use it every time you can't defend the argument your making or simply don't like the point the other side is making but can't refute it. 

It’s hard to think of many if any examples of ethnic cleansing that didn’t include genocide. The difference technically is the intent. Genocide accompanying ethnic cleansing can be intentional or situational. Mostly it’s intentional

But removing people from certain areas because of security concerns, especially in the light of the October massacre of Jews, has a legitimate security purpose. It’s hardly an attempt to clear the region of all Palestinians.

Of course that can mask other intentions, but on the face of it, it’s an understandable response to a brutal attack. 

As for Haganah etc, no doubt they are radical. But at the beginning they were fighting for lives against forces determined to eliminate them….the IRA was fighting for power using brutal tactics. 

It’s hard to think of many if any examples of ethnic cleansing that didn’t include genocide.

Maybe but that's irrelevant. The forceable expulsion of a people from their homes meets the criteria of ethnic cleansing. The manner of how its done is irrelevant, it can include genocide, murder, intimidation, sexual violence or destruction of property. The methods and scale may vary but the end goal is the same to drive a people out of their homeland and prevent their return.

But removing people from certain areas because of security concerns, especially in the light of the October massacre of Jews, has a legitimate security purpose. It’s hardly an attempt to clear the region of all Palestinians.

Of course that can mask other intentions, but on the face of it, it’s an understandable response to a brutal attack. 

I wasn't actually talking about Israel's actions in real life in response to October. 

I was responding to Plum's suggestion of

Israel should just fully flatten the place, kick them all out, and claim it for themselves.

What he's suggesting isn't anything to do with security. He's flat out suggesting the Israeli's go in and completely ethnically cleanse Gaza of all Palestinian's.

Surely you don't agree with such a suggestion?

As for Haganah etc, no doubt they are radical. But at the beginning they were fighting for lives against forces determined to eliminate them….the IRA was fighting for power using brutal tactics. 

Radical, is that another word for terrorist? 

The IRA fought to end British rule in Northern Ireland in order to facilitate a United Ireland, using brutal tactics.

Imagine if 300 Israelis walked into Gaza , armed to the teeth and just killed everything in sight.

Imagine basing your arguments as if this conflict started on October 7th 2023. 

We'd all be blaming Israel. We'd all be expecting Israel to do something. We'd all hold Israel accountable...and Stav, you'd be leading the charge.

We all blamed Hamas for October 7th. There is a difference though between holding Hamas accountable and crossing the line into extreme collective punishment and flat out committing war crimes/crimes against humanity.

But somehow, the Muslims get a free pass. It's not the country and it's not the people. No! It's just a few terrorists, right?

No one is asking for a free pass, just that an entire population shouldn't suffer because of the actions of Hamas, particularly when around half the population are children.

We can't blame the country or the people. We should only blame the terrorists.

Yes its funny, some people like the idea of the rule of law and the concept of justice.

Even though the people actually support the terrorists. 

And the reasons Hamas get support from the Palestinian people are?

And of course we should barely even blame the terrorist since they're only really terrorists because of what the other evil baddies did to them, right? 

No one is saying we shouldn't blame Hamas. Might be a good idea to understand why groups like Hamas exist. And I'll give you a hint, its not because all Muslims are evil.

Because terror is really the only solution, right?

Ironically the only person here arguing for a terror solution is you.

In my book, Muslim communities in many countries around the world allow terrorism to emerge from their societies. How many people that have been taken in as asylum seekers have bombed the hand the fed them?

Ah man it must be so easy living in that simple clear cut black and white world of yours. Unfortunately the world is a much more complicated place. 

If there was a much harder stance. Something like, if terrorists emerge from your communities then your entire damn community will suffer the consequences. And the consequences will be orders of magnitude beyond whatever terror those scumbags achieved. And if every time there was a terror attack, whatever community that terrorist came from was punished to the point of almost being completely destroyed...where there would be no hiding behind the same old "bad apples" argument, my guess is that suddenly we'd see a lot less of it happening.

Sounds like how the Nazi's dealt with Partisans during WW2. Partisans would attack German troops, killing and wounding a few of them. After the attack ended the Nazi's would go to nearby villages and kill hundreds in reprisal attacks regardless of whether or not the villages where supporting the Partisans.

I'm fully with Israel and I think they should bomb the living shit out of Gaza and keep doing so until there is nothing left.

They kinda already have done that.

Let the entire Palestine community fully understand that they are far better off not allowing terrorists among them.

Maybe then they'll learn.

Or how about Israel allow a viable Palestinian state to exist which would remove the conditions for terrorist groups like Hamas to exist.

And hey, the upshot is that if there are no more terrorists coming from Muslim communities, people have zero excuse to not get behind those communities, and support them in creating better lives for themselves.

That's almost a nice dream, but I suspect people would still find reason's to be Islamophobic.

Little story Stav. We were staying at the Dorchester hotel in July 82, waiting for our house to close. My wife and children walked to Harrods for a bit of shopping. I went off to work.

At almost exactly that time, the IRA set off a bomb killing the Queens Guard and their horses along the general route the family were taking. We all live with terrorism, that’s just one example…a near miss, within half an hour actually.

The Twin Towers on 9/11 is another. I was due to attend a Board meeting there a week or so after 9/11. I still have my World Trade Center security card. Just a reminder.

Terrorism begets a response. The current round of violence in the ME has many causes, but the immediate cause is the vicious unprovoked October 23 attack on innocent Israeli  civilians. That attack gets the blame for the people who are still not accounted for and for the suffering the Palestinians have endured since then.

As for the IRA fighting for a United Ireland,….every poll seems to indicate at least a 10% majority in the North favoring remaining part of Britain. So they were basically using brutal terror tactics to achieve a non democratic result. At least Hamas appears to be supported by the majority.

"I asked him and I mostly got a nonsensical reply. Lets try again. Mike, Plum has suggested flattening Gaza and kicking out the Palestinians. I asked where the Palestinians were supposed to go if such an occurrence occurred, you responded they could go to America. Which to me it sounded like the response of someone who is okay with that course of action. So do you think the Israel should be able or allowed do that if they wanted too? If you don't then I'll retract my statement on you supporting ethnic cleansing in Gaza. "

Not exactly...you said they've got nowhere to go. Maaik said the current US administration seems to be happy to take them...that doesn’t mean he wants that...it's obvious he doesn’t...and it surely doesn't mean he wants them forcefully removed...but you went further, you said he's in favour of ethnic cleansing...and you said he also  supports ethnic  cleansing in Ukraine...which is also a lie...Mike might  be wrong on many of his wiews wrt the Ukraine War,  but I've never seen him post anything that can be wiewed as propagating ethnic cleansing...it was an stupid remark provoked by frustration with Mike, but it's factually wrong...just own it.

"You can bleed your heart out about racism or Islamophobia all you want...but facts are facts and the effects of Islamic communities is clear"

I have mentioned this on here countless times...... because you cannot argue that fact.

I don't care if it is seen as racism or n ot, it is absolute fact.

I also stated many times in the past that the people of the UK have had enough and that it was at a boiling point..... and look what recently happened, and it's happening in other countries around the world, but it's just blamed on the far right......ridiculous.

You have to be incredibly naive or ignorant to not see the danger this poses.

So should stupid hurt? 

You must be in constant agony.

I have mentioned this on here countless times...... because you cannot argue that fact.

I don't care if it is seen as racism or not, it is absolute fact.

I also stated many times in the past that the people of the UK have had enough and that it was at a boiling point..... and look what recently happened, and it's happening in other countries around the world, but it's just blamed on the far right......ridiculous.

You have to be incredibly naive or ignorant to not see the danger this poses.

This is what gets me right, the complete and absolute double standard.

Typically of those people who are of the opinion that Muslims are taking over their country be it in the UK or other European countries, usually the majority of these people support Israel unreservedly. 

Leaving asides the question of whether Muslims are actually taking over these countries these people seem completely oblivious to the fact they support another country that is in an ongoing process of taking over Muslim territory, territory that has been Muslim for over 1,000 years.

They perceive a Muslim take over of their countries and are outraged. The Muslims should stay in the lands they came from. But its perfectly fine for Israel to take Muslim land.

Imagine being too afraid to base your argument on anything other than "Oh, it's all so grey."

Grey?....Alright buckle up motherf**ker its history lesson time, Speed running as much as possible, because this is such a long and complicated topic. 

The Jews who where descendants of the Canaanites lived in the area of what is now called Israel from the 2nd century BCE up to around 136 CE. They ended up under Roman rule which they didn't like very much. They revolted 3 times and where defeated each time. The 3rd and final defeat in what was called the Bar Kokhba Revolt basically saw the Jews pushed out of the region with only a small population of them remaining. 

Skipping on a bit In the centuries that followed Christianity became the largest religion in the region before the Arab conquests of the region in the 7th century. Over time the Arab population converted to Islam, though it remains unclear if Muslims made up the majority before or only after the Crusades.

As a quick side note the Mulsims who now lived in the region that is present day Israel-Palestinian where also descendants of the Canaanites. So if you put any value on descendance as a valid claim to the land, both the Jews and Palestinians would have an equally valid claim.

Skipping on again. The area of Palestine came under the control of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman's did not treat the minority population of Jews very well, however for the most part minority Jews and the Arabs in the Palestine region co-existed without major issues. The Arabs didn't not like being ruled by the Ottomans.

Now we start getting to the interesting stuff. 

With the rise of antisemitism across Europe and else where the Zionist movement is created in 1897 by Theodor Herzl, with the goal of creating a Jewish homeland in Palestine, their former home land.

This results increasing amount of Jewish immigrants to Palestine. This results in tensions with the Arab Muslim population. 

World War 1 comes along. The Ottoman's enter the war on the side of the Central Powers.

In order to obtain Arab support against the Ottoman's the British promise to support Arab independence in Palestine in exchange for their assistance in fighting the Ottoman's.

The Arabs however where unaware, that at the same time British Foreign Sectary Arthur Balfour promised the Jews support for a Jewish home state in Palestine if the Jews would support the war against Germany (ironically this was partially because he believed in the antisemitic conspiracy that the Jews controlled the worlds finances).

The Arabs uphold their end of the bargain and assist the British against the Ottoman's. The British promptly screw over the Arabs. First with the Sykes-Picot agreement which carved up the territories of the Levant region among Britain, France and to a lesser extent Russia. Then with the Balfour declaration which was Britain publicly supporting Zionism and the concept of the Jewish home state in Palestine.

Needless to say the Arabs are f**king incensed at this betrayal.  

During the period between World War 1 and 2. Britain controls Palestine. Increasing numbers of Jews continue to arrive but at times the British restrict the numbers coming under pressure from the Arabs. Tensions continue to mount, Jewish arrivals practise of buying up land from foreign land lords and then either evicting or banning Arabs from working/living their along with the Jewish stated desire of creating a Jewish home state deeply alarms the Arabs which results in several violent pogroms against the Jews by Arabs. On other occasions Arab leaders say they will allow the Jews to continue to come to Palestine on the condition they give up on the idea of creating a Jewish home state in Palestine, they can live in a Palestinian state as long as the Palestinian state is run by the Arabs.  Jewish militia's like the Hanganah, Irgun and Lehi come into existence to protect Jews in the region but also later to fight the British to try to bring about a Jewish home state. From about 1920's onwards there is a constant series of attacks then reprisal attacks between the Jews and Arabs. 

In the meantime the Arabs in Palestine are not happy with British rule in Palestine and launch a revolt. First by a massive labour strike and then secondly by armed conflict. This conflict takes place between 1936-1939. The British with support from the Jews and a powerful Arab family from Palestine put down this revolt. The result of this conflict significantly weakened the Palestinian Arabs both economically and politically with a lot of their leadership fleeing out of Palestine. This would have consequences for them 10 years down the road.

World War 2 breaks out and the Jews obviously side with Allies. (Although side note incredibly the Jewish militia group Lehi twice try to ally with the Nazi's believing them the lesser of two evils compared to the British and remained pro Axis until 1943). At this stage the Arabs in Palestine are led by Mohammad Al-Husseini who frankly can only be described as a a really really horrible person. He was staunchly pro Axis and one can only be thankful the Germans never reached Palestine as he would have no issue allowing the Germans to enact the Holocaust against the Jews there. One thing to note about Al-Husseini is ironically he wasn't that popular with or representative of the Arabs living in Palestine nor would he have come to power without the British appointing him to the role of Mufti of Jerusalem. The neighbouring Jordanian's in particular didn't like Al-Husseni something else that would also have consequences down the road.

From around 1944 onwards though the Jewish militia groups start conducting a terrorist/liberation (depends on who you ask) campaign against the British authorities in Palestine. After a few years Britain is like f**k this headache, we are out of here, hey newly formed UN you deal with this mess.

The UN comes up with a partition plan. The Jews would be given almost 56% of the land of Palestine, the Arabs would get the remaining 44%. The day following the adoption of the partition plan a civil war began in Palestine between the Jews and Arabs. The surrounding Arab countries promptly join in on the side of the Palestinian Arabs.

Now from the pro-Israeli side this is often presented in the following way. The partition plan did not make the Jews happy, but because the Jew's are reasonable people they accepted the plan. On the other hand the unreasonable Arabs-Muslims because their simply violent people by nature and fanatical antisemites immediately ganged up on Israel and tried to destroy it at birth.

From the Arab perspective, it was "what the absolute f**k is this sh*t". First the west shafted the Arabs after World War I, and now because the west was feeling guilty about its antisemitism that lead to the holocaust, as a sort of guilty apology they thought they should give away most of Palestine to the Jewish people, a people the west had themselves had actively encouraged to immigrate to Palestine just to asway their own guilt. A people who at time owned less than 7% of the land in Palestine, made up just one third of the population and had for the most part lived in that region for less than 20 years. This new minority where to be given 56% of their land, while the larger population of Arabs in that region had been living their for hundreds if not over 1,000 years, would get  the smaller slice.

That's not to say antisemitism didn't play a role in the Arabs decision to go to war but here is the absolutely crucial part. The Arabs knew what this partition plan meant. It meant the forceable removal of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs from their homeland and they also knew the Jews inside the new Jewish start would not be satisfied with the amount of land given to them and they would look to take more . And they where right on both accounts, as we now know from that Zionist leader said and wrote and from military plans like Plan Dalet that they always intended to expel the Palestinian's from their new homeland and expand their territory and most obviously we know this from the fact that's exactly what happened and still continues to happen to this day.

Under the circumstances it was completely understandable why the Arabs rejected the plan and went to war. Should they have accepted the plan in hindsight. Probably but hindsight's a wonderful thing.

So we have the Arab-Israeli war of 1948. The Palestinian Arabs are still in weakened state from the 1936-1939 revolt against the British, which they had not recovered from. That conflict had resulted in many Palestinian leaders fleeing Palestine leading the Palestinian's with very weak political leadership. The neighbouring states come into assist the Palestinian's. Again this is often portrayed as Israel fighting off overwhelming odds to victory but at no time in the conflict do the Arabs ever out number the Jewish forces. One of the neighbouring Arab countries Jordan had no desire to have a Palestinian state run by Al-Husseini beside it and its leader had designs on what is now the West Bank, so Jordan basically has a token war with Israel but had in secret done a deal with Israeli's to effectively take over the West Bank when the war concludes (this would not be the only time other Arabs shafted the Palestinians)

Meanwhile in the actual war a long list of atrocities are committed by both sides, including the use of biological weapons by Israel but ultimately a series of massacres conducted by Jewish forces against the Arabs results in what the Arabs call the Nakba (the Catastrophe) , the destruction of hundreds of Palestinians villages and towns and the expulsion of around 750,000 Palestinians from their homes (hence the start of Palestinian refugee crisis).

There is a lot of misinformation about the Nakba from the pro Israel side. For example that Jews wanted and asked for the Palestinian's to stay and not leave after the fighting. This was only a rare occurrence and most Jewish leaders who did advocate for the Palestinian's to stay quickly changed their stance when they saw the prize of a overwhelming Jewish state that would not have to be shared with the Palestinians was on offer. Pro-Israeli supporters also make the claim that Arab leaders told the Palestinian's to flee. But again this happened only in a minority of cases, and the overwhelming cause of the Palestinian's fleeing was expulsion by Israeli forces and even Zionist records indicate that.

Anyway the Israeli's win the war and end up not only in full control of what was offered to them in the partition plan, but also 60% of what was offered to the Arabs.  Jordan took over the West Bank, Egypt took over the Gaza Strip.

Skipping on a bit to 1956 we get the Suez Crisis, Egypt had blocked off Israeli traffic through the straights of Tiran since 1948 when it went to war with Israel over Palestine. In 1956 Israel invades Egypt with the intention of reopening the Straights of Tiran to Israeli shipping. Shortly their after they where joined by Britain and France (the three where secretly in cahoots), and all three jointly announced they intended to depose Egyptian leader Gamal Adel Nassar who had alarmed Britain and France when he Nationalised the Suez Canal and they where worried they would lose access to the Suez Canal.

Under severe pressure from America and the Soviet Union, the British and French pull out. Britain is utterly humiliated as it realizes its no longer a super power. France realised they wanted nukes, Nassar ends up as a hero in Egypt and the Israeli's come with with a much enhanced reputation as being a very strong military power in the middle east. America takes note of this.

In 1964 the PLO or Palestinian Liberation Organisation is formed with the goal of creating an entirely Arab state in Palestine and the destruction of the state of Israel. It begins a long running campaign of guerrilla and terrorist attacks against Israel.

Moving on to 1967 we have the 6 day war. Relations remained poor between Arab states and Israel, with the Arabs where still aggrieved over the 1948 war. Nassar remained hostile to Israel and issued a series of threats against them, resulting in a number of border clashes. Nassar once again threatened to close the straights of Tiran off to Israeli shipping who responded that would be grounds for war. Egypt having received false information from the Soviet Union that Israel was about to attack them began mobilizing in lines near the Israel border. Israel seeing this launched a pre-emptive attack and wiped out the Egyptian air force on the ground. Jordan who where in a defensive alliance with Egypt did not partake in an all out offense but did launch limited attacks against Israel in order to slow them down. 5 days in to the conflict Syria joined the war on the side of Egypt (incidentally there had been a significant number of provocations by the Israeli's on the Syrian border over a period of time in the run up to this conflict)  

The war ends after 6 days with Israel victorious, this time taking over both the Gaza strip and Sinai Peninsula from Egypt and the Golan Height from Syria. The Arabs considered the drubbing they got an utter humiliation. 

Between 1967-1970 a low level war remained ongoing between Egypt and several of its allies including the PLO and also supported by the Soviet Union against Israel centered around the Suez Canal, in what was referred to the war of attrition. It involved artillery duels, commando raids and air raids but the conflict did nothing to change the position either side held.

On to 1973 and the Yom Kippur War. A coalition of Arab forces (backed by the Soviet Union) launched a surprise attack on Israel on the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur. The start of the war goes very badly for Israel. So bad is the situation for Israel they genuinely consider using nuclear weapons. However the Israeli's (backed by America) rally halting the advances of both the Egyptians and Syrians then launching counter offensives into both Syria and Egypt and coming within 100km of Cairo. At this point the Egyptians rally and successfully halt the Israeli offensive before a ceasefire was declared.

The Arabs came away from the conflict feeling the there performance at the start and end of the conflict had somewhat addressed their humiliation in the 6 days wars. The Israeli's came away from the conflict feeling spooked, realising their military superiority wasn't certain going into the future.

In 1978 in response to the Costal Road Massacre conducted by Palestinian militants operating from Lebanon, Israel invades Lebanon driving the Palestinian's militants out of South Lebanon. The Israeli's withdraw and the UN sends in a force to enforce the border.

In 1982 once again responding to attacks from Palestinian militants Israel invades Lebanon. Once again they succeed in driving out Palestinian militants from Southern Lebanon. However Israel's position in Lebanon because untenable after they where implicated in the Sabra and Shatila massacre in which Israel forces permitted Christian Lebanese militia into a Palestinian refugee camp where they massacred between 1,300 and 3,500 Palestinian and Lebanese Shia Muslims. This event earned future Israel Prime Minister Ariel Sharon the nickname the Butcher of Beirut among the Lebanese and he was later have found by several international commissions to have bore personal responsibility for the massacre something even the Israeli's themselves agreed with in their commission (and still elected him Prime Minister).  The Israeli's began a phased withdrawal from Lebanon which took place until 1985 where it pulled back to a security zone along the border. Very significantly in response to the 1982 invasion a new armed militant group was formed in Lebanon to oppose the Israel occupation. There name was Hezbollah.

From 1985 until 2000, Hezbollah and Israel engaged in an insurgency/counter insurgency around this security zone. Israel withdraw in 2000 following growing public discontent from the Israeli public. Hezbollah claim victory.

Meanwhile back in Palestine in 1987, Hamas is founded by an almost blind and quadriplegic man Ahmed Yassin as an ahem "charity" offshoot of  the Muslim brotherhood. Ironically Hamas where seen as more moderate than the PLO and where discreetly supported by Israel who saw them as a counter weight to the PLO.

As the PLO moved away from armed struggled/terrorism to a more diplomatic tact, the mask comes off Hamas who began to actively pursue its own campaign of terrorism against Israel. Hamas charter would infamously call for the destruction of the state of Israel (until the charter was updated in 2017)

From 87 through to either 1991 or 1993 depending on who you ask the PLO conducted the first Intifada against Israel following the deaths of 4 Palestinian's killed in car crash by a Jewish driver, something the Palestinian's viewed as revenge attack for the death of Israeli in Gaza, which in return the Israeli's disputed. The first Intifada was primary conducted by means of mass civil disobedience and riots. The Israeli's cracked down and supressed the uprising. Some 200 Israeli's where killed and near 2,000 Palestinian's where killed, a quarter of who where killed by other Palestinian's after being accused of collaboration with Israel.

Around about 1993 we have the Oslo accords and it looked like there was a chance at peace. Israel agreed to recognize the PLO as the defacto leader of the Palestinians while the PLO recognized the state of Israel and would go on to renounce using violence against Israel to achieve its aims. The negotiations became strained over suicide bombings conducted by Hamas and Islamic Jihad as well as the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre conducted by American-Israeli far right ultra Zionist.

Eventually the Oslo accords failed though its difficult to pin down the exact cause. It was opposed by many militant Palestinian factions and Arafat's main issue with the accords seemed to be over the issue of the right of return of Palestinian refugees. Many lay the blame on Arafat's door suggesting he was never negotiating in good faith and never intended to sign any deal.  On the Israeli side the Ultra right wing Zionists opposed the deal and eventually one of them would assassinate Yitzhak Rabin the dove-ish Israeli Prime minister in 1995. Many then held the now current Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his party responsible for inciting the violence that lead to Rabin's assassination. 

In 2000 the Camp David Summit failed to achieve anything due to irreconcilable differences between the Israeli's and Palestinian's over the status of Jerusalem. 

In response the Palestinian's launch the second intifada, which was far more violent than the first. Arafat possibly out of spite over the failure of the Camp David meetings either did nothing to stop the intifada or actually encouraged it.

This rages from 2000-2005. Again the uprising is put down by the Israeli's this time at the cost of over 1,000 dead Israeli's and over 3,000 dead Palestinians. Israel build the west bank barrier wall during this conflict and also during this conflict Israel unilaterally decides to pull out of Gaza and enforce a blockade of it. As a result of the pull out Hamas claim's victory and that its violent actions drove out Israel. There popularity goes up as a result.

The Palestinian elections occur in 2006. Hamas win, Fatah/PA reject the idea of forming a unity government with Hamas (which is what the majority of Palestinians wanted) and this results in the conflict between Hamas and Fatah resulting in Fatah's expulsion from Gaza and Hamas seizing control of Gaza entirely. Fatah retain control of the West Bank and nether territory has had an election since.

Israel use the Hamas take over of Gaza to tighten its blockade over Gaza. Israel controls the population registry, the land border (except the Rafa crossing into Egypt) and maritime border as well as its airspace. It also controls the electricity supply into Gaza, (which Fatah pays for) and the water supply. It controls who and what can go into Gaza. Severely restricting anything that it considers as having a duel purpose (potential military purpose). These restrictions completely and utterly cripple Gaza's economy. As David Cameron Prime Minister of the UK described it. Gaza was effectively an open air prison camp. 

2006 Israel once again invades the Lebanon following a cross border raid by Hezbollah that killed 8 Israeli's. The war lasts for 34 days and ends inconclusively with both sides claiming victory. Israel withdraws and the UN once again move in to enforce the border.

2008-2009, following as Israeli raid into central Gaza a 6 month ceasefire between Hamas and Israel collapses resulting in the Gaza War. Israel declares victory and withdrew. Hamas obviously survived the conflict. Both sides where accused of committing war crimes by the UN.

2012, following the Israeli's killing the leader of Hamas military wing which leads to a cycle of reprisal attacks and counter attacks, another war breaks out between Hamas and Israel in Gaza. War ends inclusively with both sides claiming victory.

2014, following the kidnapping and murder of 3 Israeli teenagers by Hamas affiliated militants Israel launches another military operation in Gaza. Ends inconclusively, both sides claim victory.

In 2018-2019 in protest against the ongoing blockade of Gaza and Donald Trump's/US recognition that the entire undivided city of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, Palestinian's organise a protest known as the great march of return demanding the Palestinian refugees be allowed to return to their homes and the end of the blockade on Gaza. The protests where initially independently organised but later supported by Hamas. These protests where by and large a peaceful, though small groups of people did try to breach the blockade. The Israeli's killed 223 Palestinian's included 49 children in putting down these protests. Israel's use of force was widely condemned internationally.

2021 following a ruling by the Israeli's supreme court to evict four Palestinian families from east Jerusalem and the storming al-Aqsa Mosque by Israeli police we get another Intifada, which ends rather inconclusively and the status quo being resumed, but not without another 14 Israeli's dead, over 200 Palestinians dead and another 75,000 displaced.

2023 October 7th, Well you know what's happened there, Hamas launched a surprise attacked and murdered over 1,000 Israeli civilians and kidnapped around 250 Israeli's. The day after the attack Hezbollah began lobbing missiles at Israel in support of Hamas. Israel's subsequent military operation has killed over 42,000 people in Gaza with another 6-10,000 missing, another 100,000 wounded and near 17,000 Palestinians detained by the Israeli's. Around 1.9 million Palestinians have been displaced. Hamas military strength in Gaza was estimated to be at 20,000 at the start of the conflict.

Israel has lost about 900 security personal and taking about 13,500 wounded. Around 60,000 Israeli's remain displaced down from a peak of around 500,000. Most of the Israeli hostages are now dead, (a small number appear to have been deliberately killed by Israeli forces on October 7th under the Hannibal directive) with just a few being rescued, escaping or being traded in negotiated deals. About 50-60 or so remain unaccounted for. 

Once again both sides are accused of committing numerous war crimes.

Israel expanded its military operation in to Lebanon again with another 2,500 dead so and another 10,000 or wounded on the Lebanese side. Israeli have very successfully targeted the Hezbollah leadership and eliminated many of them but as a fighting force Hezbollah still remain a significant force to be reckoned with, far stronger and more capable than Hamas is.

An attack on the Iranian embassy in Syria has resulted in Iran and Israel launching retaliatory strikes against each other. Currently the ball is in Israel's court as the world waits to see how they respond to Iran's missile attack of October 1st. American diplomacy might have been somewhat effective in restraining both sides so far, but for how long remains to be seen

But aside from all these conflict above and the constant cycle of violence between the two sides, throughout the entire course of Israel's existence its never stopped trying to expand. Settlement enlargement is a constant ongoing process undertaken by Israel. The settlements spread into Palestinian territory like tentacles where they keep enlarging until they eventual merge with each other, cutting off Palestinian land into ever smaller unsupportable area's. The goal of which is obvious, to make any sort of future Palestinian state unviable.

There is swathes of footage of Israeli settlers using violent methods to force Palestinian's off their land, usually done the under the protection of the IDF. The Palestinian's have no recourse when this happens. The Israeli courts always side with settlers. In one case I recently seen a Palestinian family in the West bank (who had nothing to do with Hamas) recorded on camera the methods which Israeli settlers encroached onto there land and began implementing intimidation methods to try to get them to leave. When that didn't work one of the settlers simply shot one of them in the chest, which was recorded on camera. The Palestinian survived. When the video evidence was presented in court ,what was the Israeli court's punishment for the settler shooting the Palestinian, it was to take away his gun. Some punishment for attempted murder huh?

But its not alone that, Israel's construction of the barrier in the West Bank cut off families from one another. Israel has detained thousands of Palestinian's without trial and it practises collective punishment. A Palestinian attacks an Israeli or commits an act of terrorism. His family home is destroyed in response.

Then we have the question of the Palestinian refuges outside of Israel Palestine who Israel have never permitted to return home.

Given all this, is it any wonder that Palestinian's have lashed out many times in a violent manner against the Israeli's.

And then you have America's role in this. The enabler and protector of Israel for the last 50 years or so. America are the ones that supply Israel with their weapons and gives Israel its overwhelming military advantage. They also consistently provide political cover for them at the UN, protecting Israel from motions condemning Israel with the use of their veto over 40 times. Most UN votes go something like 120-40 in favour of the motion, a dozen or so abstaining and then Israel the US and those same 5 "random" Pacific Island nations voting against it. But of course media in the US kinda don't really talk about that and most American's seem obviously to how badly it makes the US look on the world stage. 

Instead when the US is asked about the settlements, they will respond "oh the US considers Israel settlement expansion to be unhelpful", and the rest of the world goes, "and?", America responds "and what?", to which the world responds "are you going to do anything about them?"....American responds "emmm...no". Naaa... excuse us while we send them billions more in military aid.

And then you have people like Plum who have this simply black and white view of the world, where Muslims are just an inherently evil people and deserve all that they get. There is no nuance, no perspective of the other side or  understanding of the conflict. There unable to see anything from the Arab/Muslim perspective. From the Arabs perspective Israel was a great wrong forced upon by western imperialist powers who where apologising to the Jews for their own crimes, antisemitism and inaction at the Arabs expense, a wrong that they perceive as having never stopped and is ongoing to this this day in the form of the Israel settlement expansion, the treatment of the Palestinian people and refusal to allow Palestinian refugees to return home. Only thing that's changed is western power backing this wrong doing is no longer primarily the UK but the US. Further western military mis-adventures in the middle east like the Iraq war didn't exactly improve Arab/Muslim views of the west. You might perceive what happened back in 1948 as ancient history, the Arabs don't they see it as one big long ongoing injustice. As far as they are concerned the west has never stopped meddling in the middle east since the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Having said that the majority of Arab countries now accept Israel is a permanent fixture in the middle east and time cannot be undone, they accept Israel's right to exist but at the same time they want Israel to cut the Palestinian a proper and fair deal, to stop taking Palestinian land, to allow a viable Palestinian state and work on some sort of deal to enable Palestinian refuges to return their homes. Most of the world holds shares that view.

None of this is to excuse Islamic terrorism or Jihadist attacks in the west or in Israel. This is not me saying Israel is entirely to blame or the US/West is entirely to blame. Arab/Muslims countries have made their own mistakes and missed opportunities. Sometimes they bash Israel to distract their populations for their own shortcoming and failure to improve the lives of  heir own people and thus they use the Palestinians as political football. But their is far more to it than this f**king cartoony black and white view, that the west and Israel are just chilling out minding their own business wanting to be left alone but these savage Muslims keep attacking them for no other reason than they are evil because their religion makes them that way. 

If you threat a people like animals for long enough they eventually will act like animals. Again without condoning terrorism its important to understand what the cause of it is, because addressing those causes can stop it. That's what happened in Northern Ireland. And yes sometimes that involves negotiating with terrorists and if seems unpalatable, then remember the founding fathers of Israel where also once terrorists. Negotiations with terrorists in Northern Ireland ended the conflict there.

So that's where you've been...