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FORUM / CRICKET /  Interesting comment on de Kock by Michael Holding.

Interesting comment on de Kock by Michael Holding.

Started by Mozart57 REPLIES2,237 VIEWS· 12 Mar 2015, 23:07
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Mar 2015, 23:07
#1
12 Mar 2015, 23:07#1

On the ESPN feed before the UAE game, Holding opined on de Kock. He said when he first heard about him, he was being touted as the next big thing in South African cricket. But when he actually saw him bat he was astonished by the flaws in his technique. Flaws which still haven't been corrected, leaving Holding to suggest de Kock needs lots of work to emerge as a top class batsmen.

 

I suppose it could be sorted, Amla in his early days dropped the bat in from point with the face being on line for only a nanosecond. But he revamped his backlift and fixed the issue.

 

De Kock throws the bat at the ball, the source of his power......but the gap is the biggest I have ever seen for a top batsman. That means he is relying entirely on his eye.

 

 

All of this isn't very shocking. But the failure of coaches and dare I say it, groupies on this site, to spot the issues....is quite amazing.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Mar 2015, 11:12
#2
13 Mar 2015, 11:12#2

The poor kid at the moment is so out of touch he cant even play a defensive shot......they cant select him for the QF.

 

His flaw is less pronounced than Graeme Smith's in that he tends to play everything towards leg.......when he is in form, this is less pronounced.......he is more gifted a bat than Smith and is a super naturally talented player........right now he is out of form but will be back.

 

There are many bats with poor to average techniques that actually make it.......de Kock's issue is the less pronounced than the flaws Gary Kirtsen, Graeme Smith and Faf have.......Amla was the same when he started  

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Mar 2015, 11:13
#3
13 Mar 2015, 11:13#3
 Hugely talented by needs a bit of correction. In the meantime drop him to say 7.
How ever the fact is also he came into the tournament underdone. That has to be considered.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Mar 2015, 11:14
#4
13 Mar 2015, 11:14#4
 Also any batsmen can have a poor run.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Mar 2015, 11:22
#5
13 Mar 2015, 11:22#5
 Dr Moz rather listen to a batsmen rather than an old guy long out of the game like holding and abowler to boot.Here is what Ab has to say and he should know:

Are you going to stick with Quinton, now that he got a few runs?

AB - We will obviously discuss team selection moving forward. Russell and I and the selectors will sit down and discuss all the different possibilities and combinations that we have and we'll make that final call once we get closer to the time. But talking about Quinny, there's no doubt in my mind that he's a match winner, and I've said it before that he's going to play a big part in us winning this World Cup. I would hate to see him go, but it's something that we will discuss. But for now he's still my first pick, and like I said, he's going to win – I really believe he's going to play a big knock for us.

Q - If Quinny doesn’t make the quarterfinals, would you be sad to give up your bowling, seeing that it's going so well?

AB - I'll be very unhappy about that, yes. Look, personally I don't want to keep. It really puts a lot of pressure on me as a captain. I've got more time without the gloves on. I feel I can get to my bowlers, communication is much better, so it will be a last resort for us to move in that direction. Quinny showed some signs of good form again today, much better. He was prepared to fight it out, and like I said, he's going to win us a few games moving forward, so he'll be a big player to leave out.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Mar 2015, 11:24
#6
13 Mar 2015, 11:24#6

de Kock is a class act he has already proved that.......the first time I saw him was playing for the SA U19's and he was awesome.

 

Slight flaw with the technique but hugely talented and still a baby......but yes we should have dropped him to 7, three games ago  

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Mar 2015, 13:18
#7
13 Mar 2015, 13:18#7
 Dave very few of the ODI batsman have flawless technique - but it is more important that they players score runs in ODI's at a higher rate than they ever used to do in the past.
During Holder's hayday there was not much difference between Test batting and ODI batting - technique was paramount, run rates were not really as important as they are today.   So lets accept that De Kock has a technical problem and also that he is a class act in ODI's - who as a result of injury did not have the require preparation for the WC.  It is not his technique that is the problem here - it is his timing of the shots that is problematic.   That is the major problem and that can only be overcome by being on the pitch.   Timing deficiency was also responsible for most of his early dismissals this WC - and that is easier to correct than technical deficiency.
What we must not forget either that in his short ODI career  the situation is basically as follows compared to Graeme Smith:
Graeme Smith  
197  ODI's 10 Centuries47 half-centuries44 6's788 4's
Quinton de Kock       
42  ODI's 6 Centuries4 half-centuries18 6's169 4's
If we take it that they played in an equal number of ODI's - ie 197 - mathematically the comparison would be as follows:-
 28 Centuries19 half-centuries85 6's792 4's
That comparison shows De Kock will be a much more talented batsman in ODI's than Graeme Smith ever was.   De Kock is still a kid and will improve with experience.  The way he is slagged off by some members of this site is really not acceptable.  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Mar 2015, 15:08
#8
13 Mar 2015, 15:08#8
de Kock is more gifted but you could not better Smith's resolve - a hard man and a born fighter  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Mar 2015, 15:10
#9
13 Mar 2015, 15:10#9
Actually Dave, the working to leg doesn't bother me as much. It's the lack of foot movement towards the ball and the throwing of the bat at the last opportunity ....leaving the biggest gap between bat and pad I can recall in a top order batsman.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Mar 2015, 15:11
#10
13 Mar 2015, 15:11#10
 Beeno
While I think De Kock could be batting lower down in the order as a corrective measure - the problem is then who to open the batting with.  The answer made by some is Rillee Rossouw - but  fact is Rossouw is a much more reliable middle order batsman than an opener and may be wasted as an opener going out cheaply.
I think that ASB is correct - De Kock showed some signs of recovery in the latest match and I am sure he will get his timing better as the tournament goes on.   When that happens he will be - as frequently in the past - a match winner for the Proteas.
    


AG
AgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
13 Mar 2015, 16:33
#11
13 Mar 2015, 16:33#11
 We have to remember that QDK is just a kid, all players go through barren spells, even Kohli went through one and now he's flavour of the month.
We've seen that Quinton has talent, now it's time to see if he's got the mental strength to get through this and I have no doubt that AB, Hash and Faf are keeping him under their wing and giving him some excellent advice.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Mar 2015, 17:48
#12
13 Mar 2015, 17:48#12

Moz that comes with being out of touch, there is no conviction in his play......he is not moving to the ball.

 

When he is in good touch there is no issue with his footwork........what he does do naturally is play towards the leg.......so the bat face tends to head towards leg instead of full face to the ball......Smith was even more pronounced than this in this regard.

 

It is a left handers trait at times.....I bat left handed as does my son.......you can see it in Miller at times as well.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Mar 2015, 17:54
#13
13 Mar 2015, 17:54#13
Well he is a kid APD, but building the kids confidence is not the objective of the next three games...winning is.  
AG
AgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
13 Mar 2015, 18:05
#14
13 Mar 2015, 18:05#14
 Absolutely agree Mozart, I was just defending his quality, not his form. Class is permanent, form is temporary - maybe this was one WC too soon for him, especially coming back from a bad injury. Time to drop him down the order order or out of the team, i have no d oubt he'll turn into the player we hope for though.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Mar 2015, 18:05
#15
13 Mar 2015, 18:05#15
 Why do we have nut cases on this site that does not listen to what AB said about De Kock and want to carry on like he is the be-all and end-all of cricket knowledge on this site.
Let me explain building confidence is part and parcel of developing a winning game  - only a fo/ol will not realize that.   
AG
AgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
13 Mar 2015, 18:10
#16
13 Mar 2015, 18:10#16
I think Mozart's comment was fair Mike, it would be risky to persist with QDK opening just to build his confidence, the best way to build his confidence is down the order. 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Mar 2015, 18:14
#17
13 Mar 2015, 18:14#17
I was never really convinced he is an opener. At his best he looks like a fast scoring number 6 batsman and wicket keeper. That feels like a good permanent role. 
What worries me is the kind of stuff we are hearing from AB in the post above. It's about de Kock ...about ABs not wanting to keep....I'd rather hear him talk about how we are going to win this thing.
NZ, OZ, Sri Lanka and India seem very focused and determined. We seem to be bemused and thinking about touchy feely issues.

The honest answer from AB would have been, de Kock is a great talent, but he has had a disappointing run. And the team needs a solid start, so a change may be necessary. This is the WC and we will do everything we can to win.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Mar 2015, 18:29
#18
13 Mar 2015, 18:29#18

Nope there were no signs of recovery from de Kock, he played one lovely cover drive and that was it.

 

He needed to make a big score yesterday in order for him to retain his spot at the top.

 

I'd open with Rossouw and bat de Kock at 7.

 

My side for the QF would be:

 

1. Amla 2. Rossouw 3. Faf 4. AB 5. Miller 6. JP 7. de Kock 8. Philander 9. Steyn 10. Morkel 11. Tahir  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Mar 2015, 18:41
#19
13 Mar 2015, 18:41#19

Think I'd go 1 Amla, 2 Faf, 3 AB,  4 Rossouw, 5 Miller, 6 Duminy,  7 Philander, 8 Abbott, 9 Steyn, 10 Morkel, 11 Tahir.

 

Get our best bats in early and trust them to do the business.

AG
AgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
13 Mar 2015, 20:21
#20
13 Mar 2015, 20:21#20
I agree with Saffex's team, lots of flexibility within the batting order depending on the situation we're in.If we do go with 5 specialist bowlers, I'd have Parnell in there instead of Abbott , purely to have a left hand pacer and because he can bat a bit.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Mar 2015, 20:39
#21
13 Mar 2015, 20:39#21
Well APD it's a viable team. But....we don't have much of a handle on Philander's combat readiness and I personally don't believe Duminy can bowl more than 4 overs. Our bowling resources look paper thin and I think there is a better chance our part time bats wont sink us, hell they might not be needed. But in your scheme and Dave's scheme we need all our part time bowlers to hold the fort.
AG
AgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
13 Mar 2015, 20:50
#22
13 Mar 2015, 20:50#22
 I definitely see where you're coming from, I think it's just a case of how well you rate JP as a bowler. Me and Dave see him as a decent fifth bowler, whereas some don't see him as such, horses for courses I guess. 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Mar 2015, 20:57
#23
13 Mar 2015, 20:57#23
Yep reasonable men can differ.  
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
14 Mar 2015, 01:19
#24
14 Mar 2015, 01:19#24
 I endorse mozart's team, especially against the Sri Lankans next week......
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
14 Mar 2015, 01:42
#25
14 Mar 2015, 01:42#25
 Faf must open with Amla, he's been doing it anyway. Leave the batting order as is except for taking Quin out and moving him to 6. AB must bat at 4 or 5, depending on match situation. I prefer him coming in between overs 30 to 35.
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
14 Mar 2015, 01:57
#26
14 Mar 2015, 01:57#26

Moz, you've got it right, exactly my team as well, it's get serious time, you can't hide an out of form player especially in a WC. We all know what happened when the Ozzies tried to hide that gutless wonder Quade Cooper in the WC quarterfinal, batting up or down the order makes no difference, club cricket is where one plays an out of form player.

Faf has been facing the new ball anyway so it makes no difference to him in opening the innings, something I suggested in an earlier post and the other plus in dropping QDK means they can front with a specialist attack in Abbot, Philander and co.

It's not a rocket science selection....quite obvious really, more's the pity the dumb ards don't see it.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Mar 2015, 03:24
#27
14 Mar 2015, 03:24#27
The one option I considered was moving Duminy to 3, and leaving 4 through 6 in place.  
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
14 Mar 2015, 04:16
#28
14 Mar 2015, 04:16#28
 Amla Faf Rossouw AB Miller Duminy Philander A bbott Steyn Morkel Tahir
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
16 Mar 2015, 14:43
#29
16 Mar 2015, 14:43#29

My team stays just like it is.......just as JP can have an off day bowling, we have seen the same from Abbott.....I don't rate him enough to discard de Kock and have AB keeping. Take the pressure off de Kock by batting him at 7 and trust JP, AB and Faf to bowl the 10 with JP bowling most of it.

 

Rossouw has opened, Faf has not in ages, so why make him open......that would be a stupid call.

 

Problem is, we know useless Berhardien is going to be in the side.

 

My guess is that he will come in for de Kock with AB taking the gloves  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Mar 2015, 19:52
#30
16 Mar 2015, 19:52#30
Faf has effectively opened every innings in the WC.  
BL
BlikkiesPro1,526 posts
17 Mar 2015, 09:46
#31
17 Mar 2015, 09:46#31

AB should drop his personal preferences and do what is good for the team. The team is in need of a 5th bowler.

So, Abbott should come in and QdK must stand back with AB putting on the gloves.

Faf and Amla must open.

 

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
17 Mar 2015, 10:09
#32
17 Mar 2015, 10:09#32
 Sydney Weather Tomorrow 30°C



Wednesday Partly cloudy. Medium (50%) chance of showers. The chance of a thunderstorm in the afternoon and early evening. Winds NW/NE 20 to 30 km/h tending SE/SW 15 to 20 km/h in the evening then becoming light in the late evening.

DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
17 Mar 2015, 10:30
#33
17 Mar 2015, 10:30#33
I'm no pitch expert but with a top of  30°C I reckon  the pitch would be bone dry by around 3 the alvo making it a perfect batting strip.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
24 Mar 2015, 21:30
#34
24 Mar 2015, 21:30#34
 This thread deserves to be revisited......

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Mar 2015, 22:51
#35
24 Mar 2015, 22:51#35
I wonder how much "confidence" de Kock built to day 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Mar 2015, 09:02
#36
25 Mar 2015, 09:02#36
 I woinmder how much confidence Dale Steyn built on Tuesday?  He was the worst bowler for the Proteas and that fact - together of abysmal fielding failures by some players - including I am afraid De Villiers and Fehardien - caused the loss.
I would rather say nothing more.   There were some serious failures and some really problematic performances.  To carry on about De Kock is futile - the players that caused the loss are not centered around him.   
Better to look at Amla as well - he had a poor game again on Tuesday and failed in both play-off games  - did not have a sterling WC.   Sad to say - but throughout the WC Dale Steyn was at best questionable.   Fact is the same can be said about Philander as well and what Behardien was doing in the squad remains the biggest joke of the year.
Looking at the future we will have to accept some changes and some hard ones as well. It is not around the so-called bit players only and the WC has presented us with some serious question marks as to -
*  is Amla an ODI player or should he focus on Test cricket?*  is it time to go past the Dale Steyn era and how long will he remain as no 1 bowler in the world - not much longer I am afraid?*  is the constantly injured Philander an ODI player?*  is it time to bring in players like Stiaan van Zyl, Marchant de Lange, Delport, etc into the ODI squad?*  is there any really worthwhile all-rounder available in the various franchises?       
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
25 Mar 2015, 11:59
#37
25 Mar 2015, 11:59#37
No mention of QDK.No mention of ABs captaincy.
But
Once again he gets on Amla's case. The no 3 on the ICC ODI world batting rankings, only beaten by AB and Sangakara. 
A day or two ago, we had the best team who were way ahead of the Black Caps.
Dale Steyn. He is not the no1 ODI bowler in the world. Never was. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Mar 2015, 12:38
#38
25 Mar 2015, 12:38#38
 Ceradunce
I was talking about the senior players and their performance yesterday.   Amla was way below par in both the quarter-final and the semi and in the rest of the Tournament he was not much better either.   Is it wrong to ask a question about him?  Despite his impressive reputation - none of the Indian sides were interested in him for the upcoming IPL.    That is one reason why perhaps he may not be the player for the shorter version of the games.
Unlike your shallow thinking on matters - I think that De Kock has an excellent future as a cricketer - even though he was under-performing in this tournament - probably as a result of very little preparation as a result of injury.  I topok that into account when raising the above issues.   
I asked some serious questions above - but you did not answer one of those.  Seriously I know nothing better can be expected from you.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
25 Mar 2015, 14:13
#39
25 Mar 2015, 14:13#39
 Ou Maaikie, it is time for you to catch a wake-up, sunshine. I never once denied that QDK is a talented player with a good future ahead. I just did not buy into the hype about him. You argued, two years ago, that QDK was paramount to us winning the CWC. You kept on believing it. You bought into the hype after his knock against Sri Lanka.
Look at what you said:clevermike
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 15774RE: NZ v SA Semi Final
March 23, 2015, 14:47:07I said elsewhere that if De Kock comes off - like he did against SriLanka - and I think he will - its going to be a hard day at the office for the Black Caps.   De Kock earlier in the tournament was badly out of form, lack confidence  and his timing was completely out - in the SriLanka game that lack of confidence vanished and his timing and accuracy were faultless.

You did not want to hear, from anybody that the Sri Lankan bowling attack was near toothless on the day. 

And there was this one:
clevermike
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 15774RE: de Kock
March 18, 2015, 16:01:51 De Kock always was a classy player - but his preparation for this WC was not what it should have been as a result of his injury keeping him out of cricket for 8 weeks.
I never doubted that he would not come back into form sooner rather than later.  I think AB thought the same and with the support of AB - De Kock would come right at the critical time. 
He has his confidence back and that makes things look bleak for the next opposing team.    



    You asked Moz if AB was lying, when Moz did not agree with AB's viewpoint. I have also questioned AB's captaincy. Remember that I said elsewhere that I respect AB as a brilliant cricket player but I do not rate him as a captain. He, like you, believed that QDK will win us the CWC. Yes, I know that hindsight is perfect science but this is what AB said after the match against Sri Lanka:
    AB - We will obviously discuss team selection moving forward. Russell and I and the selectors will sit down and discuss all the different possibilities and combinations that we have and we'll make that final call once we get closer to the time. But talking about Quinny, there's no doubt in my mind that he's a match winner, and I've said it before that he's going to play a big part in us winning this World Cup. I would hate to see him go, but it's something that we will discuss. But for now he's still my first pick, and like I said, he's going to win – I really believe he's going to play a big knock for us.

    There is part of our problem right there. AB as the captain, said in the media that we were going to win the CWC and that QDK was going to play a major role in it. It was the wrong thing to say at the wrong time. None of Graeme Smith, Ricky Ponting, Sangakara or any of the good captains would have made such a statement in the media at that time. That was bad captaincy. I am quite sure that he conveyed that in the dressing room as well. Our guys have sold the skin before we shot the deer, my friend.
    Yes, I agree that there were many factors in this game that culminated in us losing it but where did it start? You were once a huge proponent of the idea that when things start of crap in a match of one day cricket, it normally goes downhill all the way.
    I agree that Amla did not have a particularly good innings either and that did not help us. Our problem was that we set them an good target but not an impossible target by any means. Our batting did not put us far enough ahead and put loads of pressure on the bowlers to perform. 
    I have not been able to watch our innings, or much of the match, for that matter but when I saw, in the early hours of morning, what our score was, and had a quick look at the score card, I just knew that it was going to be an uphill battle. I remembered how some around here were so confident that we had a much better batting line-up but I did not buy into that. NZ's batting line-up was not to be underestimated. Not with someone like Vettori came in towards the end. 
    Although I did not watch the game, I was following the NZ batting innings in Cricinfo ball by ball and kept on checking the over-by-over comparison. NZ was always way ahead of us.
    They knew that it was not that difficult a target and they had a go at us from the word "go". Their runrate never dipped below 6 in their entire innings. Not once. The lowest that it went was 6.44 in the 30th over. Our runrate started off with 0 in the first over, going up to 5 after the second, and up to 6.66 after the third, down to 6.25 in the fourth when we also lost Amla. And the QDK krept back into his shell. He was battling against Boult and he did not seem keen to have a go at all.
    "Boult to de Kock again. De Kock has been all at sea against Boult. A fourth slip walks in. I am loving McCullum's intent5.1

    Boult to de Kock, no run, short of a length, angling in, gets an inside edge onto the pad

    5.2

    Boult to de Kock, 1 run, no swing this time, worked away with the angle. Off strike now"




    That was the start of the serious decline in our runrate, not helped one  bit by QDK scratching around for more than half an hour to find 14 runs of 17 balls. And included in those 14 runs were two fours. So, his remaining 6 runs came 15 balls in 36 minutes. He was not inclined to attack their bowling at any stage, when it was really needed to get us going.
    As I said we did not bowl great and our fielding was not top notch but the pressure was due to not having enough runs on the board to back up our bowling.
    PS. Wasn't QDK involved in a botched run out attempt as well? Not too sure. Just asking.   


    MO
    MozartCaptain49,914 posts
    25 Mar 2015, 14:57
    #40
    25 Mar 2015, 14:57#40
    The botched de Kock run out has hardly been mentioned. The fact is he should have been out twice in his first over....and then played a poor stroke to lose his wicket.
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