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FORUM / MIKES GRIPES /  A hero in the awful Texas flood

A hero in the awful Texas flood

Started by Mozart129 REPLIES1,398 VIEWS· 08 Jul 2025, 00:12
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ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
13 Jul 2025, 19:33
#81
13 Jul 2025, 19:33#81

Here’s the NASA temperature chart:


Is there some particular reason your using a graph that's 14.5 years old. Could it be a case of cherry picking to hide the recent acceleration in the rate of temperature rise or just lazyness.


Let's use a more up to date chart from the same organisation.


Located here

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/?intent=121


Then doing as you asked I'm running a line from 1880 through 1945 (green line factors in smooth, purple is the annual mean) and then extending it on to the present time or as close as possible too it.



And what a surprise they don't show what you think they will show. Awkward that.


Do you really think it's possible you could debunk 150 odd years or so of of climate science by simply drawing a line through a graph?


And it does make you wonder, if the history before 1945 was predictive of today’s temps….what was the underlying driver. I’m sure co pilot will find some excuses for you….ROFL!


It's not predictive and the underlying drivers of it have already been explained to you in the past. ROFL is not a rebuttal of them, it's you being an Ostrich again.


Moz, it's easy.


People find great comfort in following narratives because it means a) they don't have to think for themselves and b) they don't have to argue for themselves.


We see this movie over and over.


"Science!!!"


You show be a criminal defendant lawyer.


First the prosecution lays out it's case against the defendant accused of murders. It explains to the jury over the course of the trial it will show them, numerous recorded threats to kill the victim on the social media accounts of the accused, multiple direct eye witness accounts of the defendant carrying out the murder, video footage of the defendant carrying out the murder, the defendant changing his story multiple times, including a confession he later retracted but later still had admitted to a cell mate was true, is on record divulging information that only the killer could know and there is vast quantities of DNA evidence linking the defendant to the victim, the crime scene and the murder weapon.

As the defence lawyer it's Plum's turn to stand in front of the jury. He simply looks them in the face and says one word in a the most dismissive and mocking tone.


"Evidence!!!"


As for ChatGPT's interpretation of me, it seems to lack the context of the post as it's some cases it seems to making my points for me and other cases it's dismissing them. I did find it interesting in regards your first chatgpt posts, in response to Brexit/OBR points it gave a human like response in its rebuttal where it was strawmaning and ignoring data it had access too.


ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
13 Jul 2025, 19:34
#82
13 Jul 2025, 19:34#82

And this forum messes up another post.

SH
sharkbokCaptain20,097 posts
13 Jul 2025, 22:48
#83
13 Jul 2025, 22:48#83

---


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jul 2025, 06:03
#84
14 Jul 2025, 06:03#84

‘Could it be a case of cherry picking’…..no it’s simply using the first chart that came up on my search. If I use your chart the line from 1910 through 1945 remains above the 2024 observation, if slightly less so. If I start at 1900, the line through 1945 looks to be about 0.3 degrees below 2024.


Try to debate like a civilized human being, Why should I perjure myself to win an argument on a message board, when either set of data proves my point in any case.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
14 Jul 2025, 07:23
#85
14 Jul 2025, 07:23#85

Its ridiculous to use short term charts to measure geographical charts...put up any 500 thousand year chart you like and make your argument from there. Zooming in on the current period is deliberately ignoring geographical realities...

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
14 Jul 2025, 09:43
#86
14 Jul 2025, 09:43#86

Couldn't agree more, Draad.


Moz, is trying to provide Stave with just a touch more perspective, but even that is too much. Let's try via pic i made..


PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
14 Jul 2025, 09:46
#87
14 Jul 2025, 09:46#87

Couldn't agree more, Draad.


Moz, is trying to provide Stav with just a touch more perspective, but even that is too much. Let's try via a pic i made...



ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
14 Jul 2025, 11:11
#88
14 Jul 2025, 11:11#88


Take 2.


Here’s the NASA temperature chart:


Is there some particular reason your using a graph that's 14.5 years old. Could it be a case of cherry picking to hide the recent acceleration in the rate of temperature rise or just lazyness.


Let's use a more up to date chart from the same organisation.


Located here

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/?intent=121


Then doing as you asked I'm running a line from 1880 through 1945 (green line uses smoothing graph, purple is the annual mean) and then extending it on to the present time or as close as possible too it.


https://ibb.co/zWDXzTR3


As you can both lines come in well below actual temperature readings.


But if you choose 1910 to filter out any lingering effects of the mini ice age, you end up significantly ahead of today’s temps. Awkward what?


So your randomly throwing in the mini ice age without any supporting evidence that it had affect on the period of temperature rises we are looking at. Yeah nice way of choosing a starting point to deliberately skew the data.


And it does make you wonder, if the history before 1945 was predictive of today’s temps….what was the underlying driver. I’m sure co pilot will find some excuses for you….ROFL!


It's not predictive, the underlying drivers of pre 1495 are known. I love it, at first A.I was more than just a tool...now it can dismissed with ROFL.


Chat think this of you...


Seems to be missing/lacking context as it's trying to argue for some of my points and against others.


Moz, it's easy.


People find great comfort in following narratives because it means a) they don't have to think for themselves and b) they don't have to argue for themselves.


We see this movie over and over.


"Science!!!"


You should be a defence attorney.


When in a murder case a prosecution presents evidence that the accused is on record of making multiple death threats the victim on social media, has a known motive, their is multiple witnesses identifying him carrying out the murder, video footage of him carrying out the murder, his fingerprints are on the murder weapon, his DNA is all over the murder victim and the crime scene, he confessed to the crime but later retracted it, but later still confessed to a cell mate he committed the murders, during police interrogation the accused was caught lying multiple times and changed his story numerous times and has a history of violent crimes.


Plum as defence attorney turns to the Jury and says in his most mocking and dismissive tone.


Evidence!!!



It’s not ‘aww (sic)’….haha that says it all. No I’m saying the models have consistently forecasted temperatures higher than occurred. One would expect even these flawed models could come up with a range broad enough to capture the outcome, given this is a very stable statistic. It’s the systematic over forecasting that’s at issue.


Okay so you're not going to acknowledge you used a model were temperature rises where in the projected range of the model.


As for you claim about climate models consistently forecasting higher temperatures than occured, lets ask chat and co-pilot


ChatGPT

have climate models consistently forecasted temperatures higher than that which occurred?


In general, climate models have not consistently forecasted temperatures higher than those that actually occurred. The picture is a bit more nuanced.

While there have been instances where some models slightly overestimated warming, overall, climate models have been fairly accurate, especially when considering long-term trends. In fact, in recent years, some models have underestimated warming, largely because they didn’t account for the pace of actual emissions or certain climate feedbacks.

Key Takeaways on Model Accuracy:

  1. Early Models (CMIP3):
  2. The earlier generation of models, like those used in the IPCC's 4th Assessment Report (2007), sometimes overestimated warming. This was due to a combination of factors:
  3. Overestimated emissions: Many early models were based on higher emissions scenarios than what actually happened, leading to projections of more warming.
  4. Underestimated cooling factors: These models did not fully account for natural climate variations or aerosol pollution, which has a cooling effect.
  5. This led to a perception that the models were forecasting higher temperatures than what occurred during the early 2000s, especially during the "global warming hiatus" (1998–2012), when warming appeared slower than expected.
  6. Recent Models (CMIP5, CMIP6):
  7. More recent models have performed much better. For example, the CMIP5 and CMIP6 models (used in the IPCC’s 5th and 6th Assessment Reports) have been better at aligning with observed temperatures, especially in the context of realistic emissions scenarios.
  8. Underestimation of warming: In some cases, recent models have underestimated warming because they did not fully anticipate the rapid pace of global greenhouse gas emissions or the accelerating feedbacks from systems like the Arctic ice melt and permafrost thawing.
  9. The "Hiatus" Period:
  10. One of the most discussed periods of model overestimation occurred between 1998 and 2012, when global warming seemed to slow down. Some models had projected faster warming than actually occurred during that time, contributing to the perception that models were forecasting too much warming.
  11. However, this "hiatus" was mainly caused by natural variability (e.g., volcanic eruptions, La Niña events, solar minimum), not a flaw in the models themselves. Once these factors normalized, the models’ predictions resumed more closely matching reality.
  12. Current Consensus:
  13. Today’s models (CMIP6), while still having some uncertainty, generally align well with observed temperature rise when the emissions scenarios are realistic.
  14. In fact, the models have often been more pessimistic in their projections (in terms of future warming), and this has worked to underestimate the magnitude of climate change, especially in terms of feedbacks and accelerating effects (like Arctic amplification).

Summary of Accuracy:

  1. Not consistently higher: Climate models have not consistently overestimated temperatures. While there were some instances of higher-than-observed forecasts, especially during the "hiatus," overall, models have tracked closely with observed temperatures.
  2. Short-term variability: Natural variability can cause short-term discrepancies between model predictions and observed warming.
  3. Improved accuracy over time: Modern models (CMIP5 and CMIP6) have improved accuracy and underestimated warming in certain periods because of evolving factors like emissions and climate feedbacks.


Co-Pilot

have climate models consistently forecasted temperatures higher than that which occurred?


Not always, ****** and that’s where things get interesting. Climate models have generally been pretty accurate over the past few decades, but they haven’t consistently overestimated warming. In fact, many have matched observed temperatures quite closely.

?? What the Evidence Shows

  1. A NASA-led study found that 14 out of 17 major climate models from the past 50 years accurately predicted global temperature trends when adjusted for actual emissions.
  2. Some models did overestimate warming, especially those with higher climate sensitivity or assumptions about future emissions that didn’t pan out.
  3. Others underestimated warming, particularly when they didn’t fully account for feedback loops or underestimated greenhouse gas growth.

?? Why the Discrepancies?

  1. Cloud behavior is notoriously tricky to model and can skew results in either direction.
  2. Emission scenarios vary—if a model assumes higher CO? output than what actually occurred, it might forecast more warming than we got.
  3. Natural variability (like volcanic eruptions or solar cycles) can temporarily mask or amplify warming, making short-term forecasts harder to nail.

? The Bottom Line

Climate models aren’t crystal balls, but they’re grounded in physics and have proven to be reliable tools for long-term forecasting. They’ve helped us understand that human activity is the dominant driver of recent climate change—even if the exact numbers wobble a bit.


Let me guess, your rebuttal is ROFL.


Of course you looked it up and surprise it was natural forces. What did you think it was, an alien invasion. But of course when we look at the 1.2 degrees of warming the alarmists assume the natural forces had zero effect….despite this:


Of course I looked it up, are you telling me you just happen to know the temperature of any time period and it's causes without having to look it up? At some point you learned of pre 1945 temperature rises from somewhere, you didn't just know it. They don't assume natural forces had zero effect, they look for the causes and take measurements (volcanic activity, solar activity)


The early 19th century, including the 1820s, experienced colder-than-normal temperatures due to the Little Ice Age


And now trying to confuse matters again with an event that wasn't global and is generally considered to have occurred before the time period we are looking at.


So here we have a bunch of multivariate models predicting a variable that is hardly moving when a ruler put through the first half of the 20th century gives better results. And if you wanted to dress that up with a non linear regression the results wouldn’t be much different.


Now we have a bunch of models that generally have been quite accurate. Moz think's he can undermine around 150 years or so of climate science by drawing a single line through a graph.


Try to debate like a civilized human being, Why should I perjure myself to win an argument on a message board, when either set of data proves my point in any case.


They don't.


Its ridiculous to use short term charts to measure geographical charts...put up any 500 thousand year chart you like and make your argument from there. Zooming in on the current period is deliberately ignoring geographical realities...


Moz, is trying to provide Stav with just a touch more perspective, but even that is too much. Let's try via a pic i made...


Guys are you really this f**king dense or do I have to explain to you that no one gives a shit if the planet was far hotter or far colder in the distant past. None of the that is relevant to human life at present. 500,000 years ago human beings didn't exist. There is now 8 billion of us sharing the planet and needing its resources.


What global warming and climate model is about, is that the warming is occurring at unnaturally high rate when compared to the historical, the warming is caused by man and it will have a profound effect on humanity going forward.


You talk about other people following narratives, but you mindlessly throw out this nonsensical rubbish devoid of any critical thinking, you mock other people when all your doing is exposing just how ignorant you are.




PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
14 Jul 2025, 11:51
#89
14 Jul 2025, 11:51#89

"What global warming and climate model is about, is that the warming is occurring at unnaturally high rate when compared to the historical, the warming is caused by man and it will have a profound effect on humanity going forward."


Screaming "science" even more loudly isn't gonna make the "science" more true, Starrie.


warming is caused by man - all you have to do is prove this but you know that ultimately nobody knows how much is MMGW and how much isn't.


unnaturally high rate when compared to the historical - you can't even prove that this is a bad thing or that it won't be more than a mere speedbump to human progress. Because its happened before, while humans were here, and we were just peachy. What we do know is the cooling was far worse for humans than humans than heating ever was.


The only profound effect warming is having on man is that natural warming is being co-opted for financial and political gain.


Funding has only been on an uptrend since the 80s and as much as you you'd like to, you can't disprove that the entire thing is asymmetrical and biased, because it is.


I know that you'll attempt to take this on some meandering discussion though bunch of models and theories. But that wouldn't match your confidence. What would match your confidence would be if you had something absolutely concrete. That's how its supposed to work, isn't it?


DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
14 Jul 2025, 12:37
#90
14 Jul 2025, 12:37#90

8 billion people on Earth has a massive effect on the planet...focussing on CO2 and methane alone is so ridiculous, it's not even funny...clear political motives, especially if you see how they propose to rectify the situation...we should either learn to adapt to the situation or reduce the population...and the bill should be split pro rata as per the population...taxing the 1st world with the bill is not sustainable.

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
14 Jul 2025, 13:44
#91
14 Jul 2025, 13:44#91

Screaming "science" even more loudly isn't gonna make the "science" more true, Starrie.


There is mountains of data to support the theory of man induced global warming. Putting science in quotation marks is not a rebuttal. It's just going lalalala I can't hear you.


warming is caused by man - all you have to do is prove this but you know that ultimately nobody knows how much is MMGW and how much isn't.


We do ultimately know how much is MMGW and how much isn't. Again reams of data going back decades support MMGW. We know CO2 causes warming, as lab experiments prove it. We know man is pumping tons of it the into the atmosphere (its been measured) and the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and the total CO2 in the atmosphere has increased dramatically, we know this because its been measured. We also know that increase in CO2 is not coming from natural source because natural CO2 has a different chemical signature from man made CO2 which again has been measured. We also know the natural causes of warming, which have been measured well. We can then take all the various measurements and make projection models, the overwhelming number of which also support the theory of man made global warming. Models and simulations comparing natural warming vs human man warm show only models that factor in man made warming can replicate current warming patterns. How I can go and link to these models if you want but what's the bet you will just scoff 'science!!!'


- you can't even prove that this is a bad thing or that it won't be more than a mere speedbump to human progress. Because its happened before, while humans were here, and we were just peachy. What we do know is the cooling was far worse for humans than humans than heating ever was.


Apply some of that critical thinking you claim the other side lack for just a moment. Yes we can prove it's a bad thing because we know what heat does to the human body. Just take the UK alone for example look at the number of excess heat related deaths that occurred in 2022 when temperatures exceed 40 degrees particularly among the. We know what it will do to sea levels, we know what it will do to agriculture. Yes we also know of some benefits of global warming as well but their minor compared to the myriad of major negative issues it will cause.


In previous cases humans were around during hot weather, somewhere around the Holocene Climatic Optimum it was somewhere between 0.5 an 1 degree warmer than pre industrial levels, i.e not as hot as the current time period. The population of humanity back then was somewhere between 5 and 20 million, not 8 billion. Back then people didn't live as long so they would be very few people over 40 never mind 65 so far less of issue of the heat killing vulnerable elderly people. That's not to say the extra heat didn't cause them problems back then, but back then there was far more space to move around and far more resources freely available. The present rate of warming is going to endanger millions if not billions of people.


It's irrelevant if cooling is a greater issue for humans than heating, heating is the issue we actually have to deal with now and going forward.


The only profound effect warming is having on man is that natural warming is being co-opted for financial and political gain.


Funding has only been on an uptrend since the 80s and as much as you you'd like to, you can't disprove that the entire thing is asymmetrical and biased, because it is.


More conspiracy nonsense though ironically it would be true if you applied it the other way around. Not on me to disprove, if you make the claim you provide the proof. Want me to link to the billions spent lobbying against climate change by fossil fuel companies?


I know that you'll attempt to take this on some meandering discussion though bunch of models and theories. But that wouldn't match your confidence. What would match your confidence would be if you had something absolutely concrete. That's how its supposed to work, isn't it?


LOL I know you will want to use evidence and theories but as I can't refute it, I'll need to flippantly dismiss that as meandering discussion. My confidence is based on the fact that I know there is decades worth of scientific research done on the matter. It's as pretty well established as the theory of gravity at this point.





ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
14 Jul 2025, 13:49
#92
14 Jul 2025, 13:49#92

8 billion people on Earth has a massive effect on the planet...focussing on CO2 and methane alone is so ridiculous, it's not even funny...clear political motives, especially if you see how they propose to rectify the situation...we should either learn to adapt to the situation or reduce the population...and the bill should be split pro rata as per the population...taxing the 1st world with the bill is not sustainable.


Yes 8 billion people pumping CO2 in the atmosphere does have a massive effect on the planet, well at least for those living on it.


The irony of calling out clear political motives when its your side that's politized it.


I'll never understand how you keep supporting people and policies that are directly against your own interests and that of your country.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jul 2025, 15:00
#93
14 Jul 2025, 15:00#93

Then doing as you asked I'm running a line from 1880 through 1945 (green line uses smoothing graph, purple is the annual mean) and then extending it on to the present time or as close as possible too it.


…….


Actually no…..that’s not what I asked. From 1880 to 1910 there was no natural warming, that started between 1900 and 1910. Run your lines from those two dates as I clearly asked you to do, using the earlier date flattens the curve.


Was that just lazy on your part or were you cherry picking? Flattening the line by including 20 to 30 years where if anything natural temperatures were declining?

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jul 2025, 15:22
#94
14 Jul 2025, 15:22#94

Yes 8 billion people pumping CO2 in the atmosphere does have a massive effect on the planet, well at least for those living on it.


You are right here. If we weren’t pumping that CO2 into the atmosphere that 8 billion people would mostly be dying…we simply don’t have the technology to support them without fossil fuels. Nuclear could ultimately be a solution, but that is an anathema as well.

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
14 Jul 2025, 15:38
#95
14 Jul 2025, 15:38#95

Actually no…..that’s not what I asked. From 1880 to 1910 there was no natural warming, that started between 1900 and 1910. Run your lines from those two dates as I clearly asked you to do.


You said that after this.


Take the starting point at 1880 and run a ruler through the temperature in 1945 and extrapolate it. And you land smack, bang right on today’s temperature. So much for the multivariate models.


Which is exactly what I did and would of posted with the post I did yesterday before the forum glitched out again and swallowed half my post. I simply reposted it today.


If I use your chart the line from 1910 through 1945 remains above the 2024 observation, if slightly less so. If I start at 1900, the line through 1945 looks to be about 0.3 degrees below 2024.


As expected, you move to an arbitrary starting point on the graph to get the result you want.



ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
14 Jul 2025, 15:43
#96
14 Jul 2025, 15:43#96

You are right here. If we weren’t pumping that CO2 into the atmosphere that 8 billion people would mostly be dying…we simply don’t have the technology to support them without fossil fuels. Nuclear could ultimately be a solution, but that is an anathema as well.


If we don't have the technology to support them without fossil fuels presently its because their are people/organisations/countries with a vested interested in preventing the creation and move to such technologies.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jul 2025, 15:57
#97
14 Jul 2025, 15:57#97

The Science loves temperature charts, showing only the anomaly which makes any change look massive rather than the very stable actual temperatures. So here’s a population chart, what made this explosion happen:


Graph of world population over the past 12,000 years (Holocene)

Has the penny dropped sunshine, that’s the gift of fossil fuels. So what’s your equation billion less people is worth 0.2 degrees less warming?

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jul 2025, 16:09
#98
14 Jul 2025, 16:09#98



If we don't have the technology to support them without fossil fuels presently its because their are people/organisations/countries with a vested interested in preventing the creation and move to such technologies.


whataboutwokism!! That may be the most ignorant thing you have posted yet. The technology would magically appear if the bad oil executives hadn’t stopped the market from innovating.


Have you ever been to a refinery, seen the brilliant technology to split crude and refine it. How about the engineering that finds and extracts oil thousands of feet below the surface of the ocean.


There is no guarantee we will ever find a better, more potent, more portable form of energy than fossil fuels. Electric flights across the Atlantic…anybody?


Fossil fuels enabled the vast population growth….good or bad we can’t simply stop using them. But we should be conserving them, not because a degree of warming which they may eventually cause is a disaster, but because they are going to be needed for as far as the eye can see.

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
14 Jul 2025, 17:46
#99
14 Jul 2025, 17:46#99

The Science loves temperature charts, showing only the anomaly which makes any change look massive rather than the very stable actual temperatures. So here’s a population chart, what made this explosion happen:


Okay so now we moving on to a completely different topic. Talk about moving the goalposts much.


Graph of world population over the past 12,000 years (Holocene)

Has the penny dropped sunshine, that’s the gift of fossil fuels. So what’s your equation billion less people is worth 0.2 degrees less warming?


It played a significant role in population growth, but their is other factors too like higher life expectancy, reduction in poverty etc.


Has the penny not dropped yet that your arguing from a disingenuous position. No one is arguing that fossil fuels haven't enabled population growth or advancements in human technology. But something having a positive effect doesn't mean it can't also have a negative effect. If you were trapped in the basement of a building with a fire moving towards you and I started pumping water to put the fire out, you would be like that's great keep it coming until the fire is out, but then when I leave the water running and the basement starts to fill up with water and your still stuck there, you'd be like well it's fine, the water did something good for me so it can't do me any harm.


whataboutwokism!! That may be the most ignorant thing you have posted yet. The technology would magically appear if the bad oil executives hadn’t stopped the market from innovating.


Let's ask chat shall we


what was/is the scale of lobbying from fossil fuels and other vested interests against man made climate change?


ChatGPT said:

The scale of lobbying from fossil fuel companies and other vested interests against action on man-made climate change has been vast, well-funded, and sustained over decades. Here’s a detailed overview of its scale, mechanisms, and impacts:

?? Scale of Fossil Fuel Lobbying

1. Financial Scale
  1. Billions of dollars have been spent globally over the past several decades to influence climate policy, public opinion, and regulatory frameworks.
  2. ExxonMobil, Chevron, BP, Shell, and others have spent tens to hundreds of millions annually on lobbying, advertising, and funding think tanks and political campaigns.
  3. Example: Between 1998 and 2017, ExxonMobil alone spent over $30 million funding climate denial groups.
  4. The American Petroleum Institute (API) and Koch Industries have also channeled hundreds of millions toward lobbying and PR efforts.
2. Organizational Scale
  1. Dozens of think tanks, advocacy groups, and "astroturf" organizations (fake grassroots) have been supported.
  2. Examples: Heartland Institute, Competitive Enterprise Institute, Cato Institute, Heritage Foundation
  3. These groups often frame climate regulation as anti-capitalist or harmful to economic growth, rather than engaging with the science.
3. Political Influence
  1. Fossil fuel interests are among the top political donors in the U.S. and many other countries.
  2. In the U.S. 2020 election cycle, oil and gas interests donated over $139 million, heavily favoring conservative and climate-skeptical candidates.
  3. Lobbying efforts have targeted key legislation like the Kyoto Protocol, the Paris Agreement, and various U.S. Clean Air Act amendments.

?? Tactics Used

  1. Disinformation Campaigns
  2. Spread doubt about the scientific consensus on climate change.
  3. Promote fringe scientists or misleading narratives like "climate has always changed."
  4. Regulatory Capture
  5. Placement of industry allies in key government positions (e.g., EPA under certain U.S. administrations).
  6. Astroturfing
  7. Creating front groups to simulate grassroots opposition to climate policy.
  8. Greenwashing
  9. Companies publicly support climate action while privately funding efforts to delay or block regulation.
  10. Delay Tactics
  11. Lobby for weaker policies, longer implementation times, or “market-based solutions” with no teeth.

?? Notable Research and Investigations

  1. Harvard and George Mason University (Oreskes & Conway):
  2. Merchants of Doubt” (book and film): Documents how fossil fuel companies copied tobacco industry tactics to undermine science.
  3. Exxon Knew Investigations:
  4. Revealed that Exxon’s internal scientists predicted climate change accurately in the 1970s–1980s while the company publicly downplayed it.
  5. InfluenceMap (nonprofit watchdog):
  6. Tracks corporate lobbying and consistently ranks fossil fuel firms among the most obstructive forces in climate policy.

?? Impact

  1. Delayed international action by decades.
  2. Created a false public perception of scientific disagreement.
  3. Helped elect or sway politicians who have blocked or rolled back environmental policies.
  4. Stalled investments in clean energy and adaptation in critical decades (1980s–2000s).

?? Current Status (as of 2025)

While many fossil fuel companies now publicly acknowledge climate change and support net-zero goals, their lobbying behavior often contradicts these positions:

  1. They push for continued fossil fuel subsidies and minimal regulation.
  2. Some invest more in carbon capture and offsets (seen as a delay strategy) rather than transitioning away from oil and gas.

? Summary

The lobbying efforts of fossil fuel companies and aligned interests represent one of the largest, most strategic, and most consequential disinformation campaigns in modern history. These efforts significantly delayed global action on climate change, with repercussions still unfolding today.


I guarantee you if we check, the money spent on lobbying against climate change action far outstrips research into climate change science.


Have you ever been to a refinery, seen the brilliant technology to split crude and refine it. How about the engineering that finds and extracts oil thousands of feet below the surface of the ocean.



It's almost like a religion with you lot, like a barrel of oil is some sort of holy relic and embodiment of Christ, no criticism of it can be tolerated. Sure that sounds very impressive, it doesn't change the fact the CO2 emissions from fossil fuels is warming the planet.


There is no guarantee we will ever find a better, more potent, more portable form of energy than fossil fuels. Electric flights across the Atlantic…anybody?


But there is a guarantee if we don't reduce emissions, humanity will suffer on scale never seen been before.


Fossil fuels enabled the vast population growth….good or bad we can’t simply stop using them.

But we should be conserving them, not because a degree of warming which they may eventually cause is a disaster, but because they are going to be needed for as far as the eye can see.


Sounds like your making an argument to move away from fossil fuels. After all they are finite.


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jul 2025, 18:28
#100
14 Jul 2025, 18:28#100

So let me take care of the BS first and then I’ll do another post dealing with the issue sensibly.


1 Fossil fuels have had a positive effect? Fossil fuels have enabled our whole civilization as we know it. We have no choice but to continue there use, hoping we find yet unknown sources of reliable energy. If we don’t mankind faces a huge crisis as our supply declines.


2 Let’s ask Chat about your claim that if it wasn’t for obstruction new sources of energy might emerge. My objection to your lobbying rebuttal is the notion that finding new energy is just a case of wanting to do so….there is a huge incentive to find the magic energy source, it’s difficult.


But this from Chat might help you see the foolishness of your position:


Recent data show a surprising contrast: clean energy tax incentives vastly exceed the fossil fuel industry’s lobbying expenditures to block them.

?? Clean-Energy Tax Incentives

U.S. policy has delivered hundreds of billions in clean energy incentives in just the last decade:

  1. 2011–2016 (federal period):
  2. • Renewables (solar/wind/biofuels) received $158 billion, compared to $414 billion for oil/gas/coal Financial Times+15Wikipedia+15Earth Day+15Financial Times+1Investigate Midwest+1.
  3. Inflation Reduction Act (IRA, 2022):
  4. • Offers up to hundreds of billions in tax credits over 10 years (e.g., for clean hydrogen, EVs, wind, solar) The Washington Post+1influencemap.org+1.

Even recent budgets preserve substantial credits: the 45V hydrogen tax credit extension alone supports green H? through 2028 Financial Times.

??? Fossil Fuel Lobbying & Subsidies

  1. Federal lobbying expenditures (2023):
  2. • Oil & gas sector: $128–137 million Earth Day+1Investigate Midwest+1.
  3. • Environmental lobby: only ~$30 million OpenSecrets+3Investigate Midwest+3Wikipedia+3.
  4. Obstructionist climate lobbying (selected big oil/trade groups):
  5. • Approx. $115 million annually (e.g., API ~$65M, Exxon ~$27M, Shell ~$22M) The Washington Post+15senate.ucsd.edu+15Earth Day+15.

Plus, fossil fuel subsidies remain large:

  1. ~$4.6 billion/year in U.S. direct tax preferences for producers Kiplinger+2The Guardian+2Axios+2Wikipedia.

……..


3 Have you ever been to a refinery and seen the technology…..I guess the answer is no.


4 If we don’t find another energy source humans will suffer on an unprecedented scale. I agree with that but not because of global warming….


Again we turn to Chat:


  1. Oil: ~1.7 trillion barrels extracted (~50% of estimated recoverable oil)
  2. Natural Gas: ~150–170 trillion cubic meters used (~40–45% of recoverable)
  3. Coal: ~700–800 billion metric tons mined (~35–40% of recoverable)

Total CO? emitted from fossil fuel combustion:

?? ~1.7 trillion metric tons of CO? as of 2023

(Source: Global Carbon Project)


So we have probably used 45% of recoverable fossil fuels and the earth has warmed 1.2 degrees minus natural warming in the first half of the 20th century. Call it 0.8 degrees, Further warming of say 1 degree C isn’t going to cause any catastrophe….but mitigation is likely to make this less, coal for example is economically dying.


5 Sounds like you are making an argument to move away from fossil fuels because they are finite. Nope I’m making an argument to use them wisely. Nothing wrong with more nuclear power plants. But we will get better answers if we approach it from the perspective of saving oil stocks rather than destroying oil use.


For example if we had pushed hybrids we would have conserved far more oil by now. 85% of driving is done within the range of daily charging. If people had hybrids they would run them on the battery, but still have the reassurance of gas for longer trips. But the WOKE focus was the primitive desire to kill the internal combustion engine.



MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jul 2025, 18:52
#101
14 Jul 2025, 18:52#101

Oh and the other point:


You said that after this.


Take the starting point at 1880 and run a ruler through the temperature in 1945 and extrapolate it. And you land smack, bang right on today’s temperature. So much for the multivariate models.


……


Not exactly …on July 12 at 3.00 I said this:


Take the starting point at 1880 and run a ruler through the temperature in 1945 and extrapolate it. And you land smack, bang right on today’s temperature. So much for the multivariate models.


But if you choose 1910 to filter out any lingering effects of the mini ice age, you end up significantly ahead of today’s temps. Awkward what?

…..


My mistake looking at the graph I carelessly asked you to look at 1880 when the graph started instead of 1900, and I asked you to also start at 1910. You ignored the latter. So humor me….start the graphs at 1900 and 1910. That’s the impact of natural warming.


The underlying motivation is to tease out the scale of natural warming…..which is implicitly assumed to be zero in the famous 1.2 degree C increase…..even though it’s acknowledged that natural warming factors including solar were at play in the first part of the 20th century.







MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jul 2025, 19:11
#102
14 Jul 2025, 19:11#102

So what’s the wrap?


CO2 is a greenhouse gas and man made CO2 emissions have probably added about 0.8 degreees of warming if we subtract out natural effects. The whole period between 1945 and 2024 is dubious because of aerosols. Warming was depressed and then spiked faster because of aresol use and then aerosol cessation.


This increase has had minimal effect on our lives and we have used almost half of the recoverable fossil fuels. Right now mankind would be in an existential crisis if these resources weren’t available. There are many applications like plastics and flight for which there are no good alternatives. We have to start replacing oil in low priority applications to push these reserves further into the future.


But to do so effectively requires an honest approach to the problem. Using the other half fossil fuel reserves is unlikely to harm our planet meaningfully. We should be conserving the resource for other reasons. Politically motivated actions like banning the internal combustion engine need to stop. Incentivize hybrids….people will use the battery first.


Our best immediate course is to define when and where solar and wind are net effective…..that’s not everywhere. And it’s not all the time. They are ephemeral in nature.


To be serious about the issue we must put nuclear on a priority build. Continuing to run 1950s nuclear plants while placing bureaucratic barriers in the way of new much safer plants makes no sense. Build nuclear to provide all base line electricity except for that which can be supplied by hydro plants and the limited times/places where wind and solar are really effective solutions.


And let’s look at the measurement system. Stop changing, select a limited number of sites away from heat islands and measure the same way every time. We need honesty in this most crucial task, not political posturing and biased research. For example the positives of warmer temperatures are always downplayed, but the only historically proven truth is that mankind grows in warm periods and stops growing in cold periods.


If we don’t solve our looming energy problem mankind is facing a crisis, not of climate but of survival.



ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
14 Jul 2025, 19:23
#103
14 Jul 2025, 19:23#103

So let me take care of the BS first and then I’ll do another post dealing with the issue sensibly.


1 Fossil fuels have had a positive effect? Fossil fuels have enabled our whole civilization as we know it.


Once again how does fossil fuels enabling civilization as you put it preclude fossil fuels from having major a negative effects.


We have no choice but to continue there use, hoping we find yet unknown sources of reliable energy. If we don’t mankind faces a huge crisis as our supply declines.


We do have a choice, we can phase out or drastically reduce fossil fuel usages use through the development of new green technologies or scaling up existing technologies to meet the challenge, or we can keep going as we are going and spend trillions upon trillions on mitigation ever worsening climate disaster, probably killing billions...all to eventually run of fossil fuels anyway.


2 Let’s ask Chat about your claim that if it wasn’t for obstruction new sources of energy might emerge. My objection to your lobbying rebuttal is the notion that finding new energy is just a case of wanting to do so….there is a huge incentive to find the magic energy source, it’s difficult.



Okay lets ask chat if lobbying delayed or obstructed new source of energy?


has lobbying against climate change action, resulted in the delay or obstruction of the development of new greener sources of energy?


Yes, lobbying against climate change action has resulted in the delay and obstruction of the development of greener energy sources.

Here’s how this has happened, with evidence:

?? 1. Blocking Climate Legislation

Fossil fuel industry lobbying has been instrumental in defeating or delaying major climate bills, which could have:

  1. Set national clean energy targets
  2. Funded renewable infrastructure
  3. Penalized carbon-intensive industries

Examples:

  1. The American Clean Energy and Security Act (2009) was defeated after intense lobbying by fossil fuel interests, despite early bipartisan support.
  2. ExxonMobil, Chevron, and the American Petroleum Institute (API) spent millions lobbying against carbon pricing, cap-and-trade, and renewable mandates.

?? Impact: Without these laws, clean energy deployment lacked federal momentum, and emissions remained high through the 2010s.

?? 2. Sowing Public Confusion & Delaying Demand

Fossil fuel companies knowingly funded disinformation campaigns to undermine trust in climate science.

Examples:

  1. Internal Exxon documents (from the 1970s and '80s) show it knew fossil fuels caused climate change—but it later funded campaigns to question this science.
  2. Groups like the Heartland Institute and Competitive Enterprise Institute received funding to publicly cast doubt on renewables and climate urgency.

?? Impact: Misinformation created political and public resistance to funding or adopting green energy, delaying policy support and consumer shifts.

?? 3. Obstructing Renewable Energy Projects

Lobbying efforts have also worked at the state and local levels to stall renewable projects through:

  1. Legal challenges
  2. Zoning restrictions
  3. Permitting delays
  4. Anti-wind and anti-solar ordinances, often backed by fossil-fuel-aligned groups

Example:

  1. In Ohio, fossil fuel lobbyists supported a 2019 bill (HB 6) that bailed out coal and nuclear plants while cutting renewable energy mandates. It was later exposed as a $60 million bribery scheme involving FirstEnergy.

?? Impact: The law directly stalled new solar and wind development in the state.

?? 4. Skewing Government Support Toward Fossil Fuels

Despite climate concerns, fossil fuel lobbying has helped preserve or expand subsidies for oil, gas, and coal, while lobbying against clean energy incentives.

Examples:

  1. Between 2011–2018, fossil fuel lobbying outspent renewable energy lobbying 13 to 1 in the U.S.
  2. These efforts helped fossil fuels retain billions in annual tax breaks (e.g., depletion allowances, drilling deductions), often at the expense of clean energy budgets.

?? Impact: This made fossil energy artificially cheaper and more competitive, discouraging investment in renewables.

?? Bottom Line

Yes, lobbying has delayed and obstructed the clean energy transition in major, measurable ways:

MechanismResulting Effect on Green Energy
Legislative obstructionDelayed national clean energy policyClimate science disinformationReduced public urgency and political willLocal project interferenceSlowed wind/solar infrastructure deploymentFossil fuel subsidy preservationDistorted energy markets against renewables



But this from Chat might help you see the foolishness of your position:


Okay lets ask chat to do the following.


compare over the last 10-20 years, global expenditure in total on fossil fuel production/development and that of climate change action. Factor in Research and Development, tax incentives, lobbying, carbon credits etc?


??? 1. Fossil Fuel Production & Consumption Support

Subsidies

  1. In 2022, fossil fuel subsidies hit a record $7 trillion (~7.1% of global GDP), combining both explicit and implicit support—around $1.3 T explicit and $5.7 T implicit (externalities like climate damage) IEA+10ONE.org US+10Financial Times+10Wikipedia+12IMF+12IMF+12.
  2. Governments globally provided $1.7 T in public money to fossil fuels that year (subsidies, investments, public lending) IISD+1IISD+1.
  3. Between 2010–2022, wealthy nations spent $2.7 T domestically on fossil subsidies—six times more than the $437 B in international climate finance during the same period ONE.org US+1The Guardian+1.

State-Owned Investments & Public Finance

  1. In 2022, G20 state-owned enterprises and public lending added another $350 B + $22 B to fossil support The Guardian+15IISD+15IISD+15.

Lobbying

  1. Major fossil firms (e.g., BP, Shell, Exxon) and industry groups spent €251 M lobbying the EU from 2010–2018 Reddit.
  2. In the U.S. alone, industry spent $72 M on lobbying in the first half of 2024 The Wall Street Journal.

R&D & Tax Incentives

  1. Fossil fuels received traditional R&D and tax incentives, but none approach the scale of consumption subsidies. In the U.S. from 1950–2016, oil, gas, coal R&D received $60 B, versus $34 B for renewables Reddit+3Wikipedia+3Reddit+3.

?? 2. Climate Change & Clean Energy Support

Climate Finance (Public + Private)

  1. Global climate finance (mitigation + adaptation) reached $600 B in 2019, rising to $1.3 T in 2021/2022 Wikipedia.
  2. Of that, international public finance from developed to developing countries remained under $70–90 B annually Wikipedia.

Renewable Energy Public Support

  1. G20 governments spent around $168 B on renewables in 2023, compared to $535 B on fossil fuel support IISD+1IISD+1—meaning they allocated ~3× more to fossil fuels.

Carbon Pricing & Credits

  1. 2023 saw record carbon pricing revenues: $104 B, covering ~24% of global emissions Reddit.
  2. However, while revenues are sizable, they lag far behind fossil subsidies and clean energy investment needs.

R&D & Tax Incentives

  1. From 1950–2016, U.S. renewables R&D & incentives received $34 B, whereas fossil R&D got $60 B .
  2. But in more recent years, federal incentives for renewables have surged—e.g., under the U.S. Inflation Reduction Act.

Lobbying by Climate Interests

  1. Environmental groups spent $46 M lobbying in the U.S. H1 2024 versus $72 M by fossil interests The Wall Street Journal.

?? 3. Comparative Summary Over Last 10–20 Years

CategoryFossil Fuel SupportClimate/Clean Energy Support

Annual Public SubsidiesUp to $1–1.7 T (2022)Around $100–200 B annuallyAnnual Global Climate Finance$600 B–1.3 T (2021/22)International Public Climate Aid$70–90 B/yearLobbying Spending (U.S.)$72 M vs Clean’s $46 M (H1 ’24)—R&D / Incentives (U.S. 1950–2016)$60 B$34 B


? Key Takeaways

  1. Fossil fuel support remains vastly dominant—with public subsidies ($1–7 T), state investments ($350 B), and lobbying far outpacing climate and clean energy.
  2. Climate finance (public + private) totals a healthy $600 B–1.3 T, but:
  3. The vast majority is domestic mitigation, not international aid.
  4. International climate aid remains relatively small, under ~$100 B annually.
  5. Clean energy subsidies (~$168 B from G20) remain far below fossil support, by a factor of ~3–10×.
  6. R&D for clean tech lags behind fossil fuels historically, though changing recently with policy support.

?? Final Perspective

Over the past two decades:

  1. Fossil fuels have benefited from trillions in government subsidies (explicit & implicit), robust public investment, and strong lobbying.
  2. Climate action—though growing—has received significantly less, especially in clean energy subsidies and international finance.
  3. Closing this gap is critical to aligning with global climate goals and ending the economic distortion favoring fossil fuels.


3 Have you ever been to a refinery and seen the technology…..I guess the answer is no.


Completely irrelevant.


4 If we don’t find another energy source humans will suffer on an unprecedented scale. I agree with that but not because of global warming….


So we have probably used 45% of recoverable fossil fuels and the earth has warmed 1.2 degrees minus natural warming in the first half of the 20th century. Call it 0.8 degrees.


Holy shit we have got you to move to 0.8 degrees or 66% of total warming, a change from your previous position of half or almost half. It's like turning the Titanic, but hey its progress.


Further warming of say 1 degree C isn’t going to cause any catastrophe.….but mitigation is likely to make this less, coal for example is economically dying.


Catastrophe is probably going to a pretty apt description of what will a happen if temps go up another degree. Mitigation is already occurring, we would be an even worse place without, the problem is not enough mitigation is happening.


Nope I’m making an argument to use them wisely. Nothing wrong with more nuclear power plants. But we will get better answers if we approach it from the perspective of saving oil stocks rather than destroying oil use


No your pushing back against climate action for ideology reasons. Where's that good old US of A entrepreneurial spirit, the we can do it.


For example if we had pushed hybrids we would have conserved far more oil by now. 85% of driving is done within the range of daily charging. If people had hybrids they would run them on the battery, but still have the reassurance of gas for longer trips. But the WOKE focus was the primitive desire to kill the internal combustion engine.


You have nothing to base that on, other than a hunch that aligns with your ideology which conveniently for you can't be proven or disproven.


LOL woke again.



MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jul 2025, 19:44
#104
14 Jul 2025, 19:44#104

So there are trillions of dollars out there waiting to find good investments and that doesn’t happen for green energy because the oil companies won’t let it. Your view of the world is so ignorant, it must be hard making sense of things.


…..

Why are solar stocks underperforming?


Critical tax subsidies that have made solar energy economical in the U.S. look like they are on their last legs, and that's sending solar energy stocks lower in 2025. But the drop may continue as the companies involved face the reality of a much smaller solar market.

……


There you have in a nutshell these companies struggle to make a profit with subsidies. Without subsidies they drop in value. Not because of political consideration but because many of them simply use more resources than they produce. Of the top 10 green energy companies only half make a profit despite all of them having subsidy boosts


Helpful Pollyanna?




MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jul 2025, 19:54
#105
14 Jul 2025, 19:54#105

You have nothing to base that on, other than a hunch that aligns with your ideology which conveniently for you can't be proven or disproven.



….


Do you have an electric car Anger. Hell do you even have a car? I have 3 in my Florida home, one of which is electric. It becomes the default car, no maintenance, no visits to the gas station, serenity, speed.


Hybrids are used 45% to 65% in hybrid mode according to Chat. Make the battery more powerful and that number will increase. But look at it this way if you had a fleet of Phevs and legislate that every car that’s electric capable needs to use the battery in city areas that includes 85% of all driving.


So you see I do have something to base my views on….hard facts.



ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
14 Jul 2025, 20:14
#106
14 Jul 2025, 20:14#106

My mistake looking at the graph I carelessly asked you to look at 1880 when the graph started instead of 1900, and I asked you to also start at 1910. You ignored the latter. So humor me….start the graphs at 1900 and 1910. That’s the impact of natural warming.



I know what your getting at but as I said your cherry picking the start point to get the result you want.


By all mean's make the graph yourself, you can use this site


https://www.gifgit.com/image/line-tool


You can upload the edited picture to here.


https://imgbb.com/


The underlying motivation is to tease out the scale of natural warming…..which is implicitly assumed to be zero in the famous 1.2 degree C increase


It's not.



MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Jul 2025, 21:12
#107
14 Jul 2025, 21:12#107

It is:


Global Temperature Trends by Period (Approximate Values)

PeriodTemp Change (°C)Likely Drivers

1850–1910~0.0°C (flat)Natural variability + early industrialization (minimal effect)1910–1940+0.3°CMix of natural causes (solar, low volcanism, internal variability), minor GHG effect1940–1975~0.0°C (plateau)GHGs rising, but aerosol cooling offset warming1975–2024+0.9°CPrimarily human-caused (GHGs), with aerosols declining and natural factors neutral or slightly cooling



MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jul 2025, 04:00
#108
15 Jul 2025, 04:00#108

So extrapolating that Chat GTP conclusion we have 0.9 degrees of warming over the 49 years from 1975 to 2024. And the claim is natural factors played little effect….a little bothersome given these factors were important in the 1910 to 1940 period, but let’s accept it.


But there was also the reversal of the aerosol protective effect, estimated at 0.2 to 0.3 degrees. Call it 0.25 and man made effects are estimated at 0.65 degrees.


Next we note that 35% to 40% of recoverable reserves have been used to date. More if all coal reserves aren’t used. And Chat estimates 5% of recoverable reserves were used by 1975. So somewhere in the 30% to 35% of fossil fuel accessible reserves were used to produce a 0,65 degree increase.


Setting aside non linear feedback effects or diminishing returns from increased carbon beyond this point….that would suggest a final man made effect of roughly 3 times the warming between 1975 and 2024, after taking aerosols into account. …or 3 times 0.65 degrees.


Call it 2.0 degrees, 1.2 we have already experienced comprised of 0.3 of natural causes and 0.9 of carbon release increases (assuming natural causes never continued beyond 1945). And the strong El Nino which has added 0.1 to 0.2 to 2024 temps is expected to normalize…. which suggests the 2.0 degree number might be high.


If this is directionally correct…if we use everything in the ground we would have another 0.8 degrees of warming to deal with having dealt with 0.9 degrees of ….which sounds sustainable.



DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
15 Jul 2025, 08:07
#109
15 Jul 2025, 08:07#109

.

.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
15 Jul 2025, 08:08
#110
15 Jul 2025, 08:08#110

.

.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
15 Jul 2025, 08:12
#111
15 Jul 2025, 08:12#111

.

. Wolf ek sê!

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
15 Jul 2025, 12:08
#112
15 Jul 2025, 12:08#112

So what’s the wrap?


CO2 is a greenhouse gas and man made CO2 emissions have probably added about 0.8 degreees of warming if we subtract out natural effects. The whole period between 1945 and 2024 is dubious because of aerosols. Warming was depressed and then spiked faster because of increase of aresol use and then aerosol cessation.


0.8 degrees and rising at a rate that's accelerating. There is nothing dubious about the 1945-2024 period. Aerosols did temporarily depress warming up till around the 1970's but that cooling affect was overcome in the 1980's and temperatures started to go up before the issue of aerosols was really tackled in the 1990/2000's. In the US and Europe aerosols peaked in the 1980 in the 1990s, while that didn't happen in China till the 2000's with peak emissions over China estimated to have occurred somewhere around 2005-2010. The time frames don't match up for the warming to be cause by aerosols. There is multiple other reasons that rule out the current temperature rise as not being a bounce back from aerosols like aerosols have a much shorter life span of days to weeks in the atmosphere and there affects being localised, so any temperature rises would be temporary and localised. Aerosols in the atmosphere have been most stable for a few years (Covid 19 caused an exception), but yet the rate of temperature rise continues to accelerate. There is also zero peer reviewed papers that support the theory that present warming is being driven by a bounce back from aerosols.



This increase has had minimal effect on our lives and we have used almost half of the recoverable fossil fuels. Right now mankind would be in an existential crisis if these resources weren’t available. There are many applications like plastics and flight for which there are no good alternatives. We have to start replacing oil in low priority applications to push these reserves further into the future.


Correction the affect has a minimal effect on your live. That's not the case of everyone.


But to do so effectively requires an honest approach to the problem. Using the other half fossil fuel reserves is unlikely to harm our planet meaningfully. We should be conserving the resource for other reasons. Politically motivated actions like banning the internal combustion engine need to stop. Incentivize hybrids….people will use the battery first.


You're not being honest, you approaching the topic from a completely politicised and ideological viewpoint.


Our best immediate course is to define when and where solar and wind are net effective…..that’s not everywhere. And it’s not all the time. They are ephemeral in nature.


They mostly are built in area's where they are net effective. It's not too uncommon for them not to be built in the most efficient area, but there can be a myriad of reasons for this, such as proximity to the area that is using the energy offsetting the loss of energy in transmissions, land availability, energy security and for environmental reasons.


To be serious about the issue we must put nuclear on a priority build. Continuing to run 1950s nuclear plants while placing bureaucratic barriers in the way of new much safer plants makes no sense. Build nuclear to provide all base line electricity except for that which can be supplied by hydro plants and the limited times/places where wind and solar are really effective solutions.


Nuclear power plays a role. Several countries are expanding their nuclear capability, with global nuclear power capacity expected to double by 2050. But building nuclear power planets is a pricey and time consuming process and it often goes against public opinion as it gets a bad rep, whether unfair or not, that's reality.


And let’s look at the measurement system. Stop changing, select a limited number of sites away from heat islands and measure the same way every time. We need honesty in this most crucial task, not political posturing and biased research.


No, the measurements are fine. You not liking what they are is not a reason to change them.


For example the positives of warmer temperatures are always downplayed, but the only historically proven truth is that mankind grows in warm periods and stops growing in cold periods.


Nope, according to research the optimum temperature for human population growth is 13 degrees.


If we don’t solve our looming energy problem mankind is facing a crisis, not of climate but of survival.


We can transition to other forms of energy, we can't move to another planet.


Why are solar stocks underperforming?


Critical tax subsidies that have made solar energy economical in the U.S. look like they are on their last legs, and that's sending solar energy stocks lower in 2025. But the drop may continue as the companies involved face the reality of a much smaller solar market.

……


There you have in a nutshell these companies struggle to make a profit with subsidies. Without subsidies they drop in value. Not because of political consideration but because many of them simply use more resources than they produce. Of the top 10 green energy companies only half make a profit despite all of them having subsidy boosts


Helpful Pollyanna?


Yes the reduction of subsidies has played a roll in the relatively poor present stock market performance of Solare energy companies along with uncertainty about environmental policy as well as caution among investors due to rising interest rates and energy price volatility but at the same time analysts do expect those companies to do well in the medium to long term.


But lets look away from the US stock market for the moment, because this is a global issue you know. Oh and what do we see but exponential growth of solar power across the world, 20th year in a row it's the fastest growing energy source, with expectations that it will provide 30% of the worlds electricity in the 2030/2040 and in doing so become the dominate source of energy on the planet.


Solar is doing just fine.


Do you have an electric car Anger. Hell do you even have a car? I have 3 in my Florida home, one of which is electric. It becomes the default car, no maintenance, no visits to the gas station, serenity, speed.


Irrelevant.


Hybrids are used 45% to 65% in hybrid mode according to Chat. Make the battery more powerful and that number will increase. But look at it this way if you had a fleet of Phevs and legislate that every car that’s electric capable needs to use the battery in city areas that includes 85% of all driving.


So you see I do have something to base my views on….hard facts.


No that's opinion. You have no idea what/when an optimum transition point in moving from an ICE care to a hybrid or fully electric car would of been in terms of emission reduction. It may have significantly delayed the development and usage of electric cars and left us on a intermediate step for longer. No one has researched this their is nor hard data, it's just you taking a politically motivated position, an excuse to attack climate change action.


It is:


It's not, nothing is assumed. That's not how science works despite the your attempts at mispresenting it. Scientists go research and measure the causes of warming. The rest of your post shows show the climate scientist do factor in the natural causes of pre 1945 heating.


So extrapolating that Chat GTP conclusion we have 0.9 degrees of warming over the 49 years from 1975 to 2024. And the claim is natural factors played little effect….a little bothersome given these factors were important in the 1910 to 1940 period, but let’s accept it.


Oh your up to 0.9 degrees now...so you have gone to half/almost half to just a third and now your at just a quarter.


But there was also the reversal of the aerosol protective effect, estimated at 0.2 to 0.3 degrees. Call it 0.25 and man made effects are estimated at 0.65 degrees.


No we are still at 0.9. That 0.2 to 0.3 degrees of warming is still caused by CO2. Aerosols masked CO2 temperature rise not natural temperature rise. There have been several models used to show projections for temperature that factor in only natural causes. They all come in around 0.0 or -0.1 degrees.


Next we note that 35% to 40% of recoverable reserves have been used to date. More if all coal reserves aren’t used. And Chat estimates 5% of recoverable reserves were used by 1975. So somewhere in the 30% to 35% of fossil fuel accessible reserves were used to produce a 0,65 degree increase.


Nope 0.65 degrees is wrong. Back up 0.9 please, you were doing so well.


setting aside non linear feedback effects


Hahahahahha, that's convenient.


or diminishing returns from increased carbon beyond this point….that would suggest a final man made effect of roughly 3 times the warming between 1975 and 2024, after taking aerosols into account. …or 3 times 0.65 degrees.


Call it 2.0 degrees, 1.2 we have already experienced comprised of 0.3 of natural causes and 0.9 of carbon release increases (assuming natural causes never continued beyond 1945). And the strong El Nino which has added 0.1 to 0.2 to 2024 temps is expected to normalize…. which suggests the 2.0 degree number might be high.


No lets call it 2.7 degrees which might be a low number.


If this is directionally correct…if we use everything in the ground we would have another 0.8 degrees of warming to deal with having dealt with 0.9 degrees of ….which sounds sustainable.


Even if 0.8 degrees was correct that still would have a sufficient effect. You might be relatively unaffected over in Chicago or Miami with the money to afford a nice air conditioned home, but not everyone's has that luxury. But we are heading for far worse than 0.8 degrees at the moment.










PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
15 Jul 2025, 15:43
#113
15 Jul 2025, 15:43#113

I don't know.


When I look at a map of Earth's impact craters and there are so many civilisation-ending-sized ones, I can't help but think Elon is on the right track. Then there are volcanoes and, now, pole shifts too.


Oil and coal have brought us to the point where were have created AI and we are not too far off of being interplanetary. That's something. I don't think we should slow down. Of course, we should make as many concessions as we can, but I honestly believe that becoming interplanetary is the biggest of big deals. We shouldn't allow ourselves to be knocked off that path.


The establishment of life elsewhere doesn't solve all local problems, but it drives innovation and competition, which by default creates higher efficiency.


I'm pretty much here on this topic...


"The environmental impact of current human activity can be mitigated through technological innovation and the exponential efficiency gains likely to emerge from the pursuit of interplanetary expansion.”


I think that geothermal is a very neglected idea in the clean energy discussion. Once you get down to 6km, you get 200 centigrade temperatures. Those depths are pretty comfortable for us to drill to, and we have the material science for everything else that would be involved in the process.


A truly reliable energy source, and when set up correctly, might not have to be that battery reliant.


Runs 24/7 at high temperatures. You could live feed the grid, no need for a massive overhaul of already built power infrastructure. Low maintenance. No need for solar panels and batteries either.


Messed around with ChatGPt and it seems to think that a geothermal plant with 6 x 6km wells could generate power for 26,000 homes and cost $75,000,000 to build. The average current monthly power bill in the USA is around $140. Even if that plant only supplies 10,000 homes, it's still a great deal.


Something like this potentially pays for itself in about 2-3 years and kicks out 0 emissions.


Geothermal currently makes up 0.4% of the US energy supply.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jul 2025, 16:07
#114
15 Jul 2025, 16:07#114

0.8 degrees and rising at a rate that's accelerating. There is nothing dubious about the 1945-2024 period


it’s not proven that it’s accelerating. The last 20 years have been affected by aerosol removal and El Niño which bumped temperatures by up to 0.2 degrees in 2023 and 2024.


No we are still at 0.9. That 0.2 to 0.3 degrees of warming is still caused by CO2. Aerosols masked CO2 temperature rise not natural temperature rise.


No we aren’t ….I’m shocked you don’t understand this. We increased 0.9 degrees from a base temperature that was depressed by aerosols in 1975. Increase the base by the aerosol effect and you get 0.65 degrees from all other warming factors. Perhaps Chat can help you grasp this:


3. Aerosol Reversal: ~0.25°C “Unmasking”

? In the right ballpark

  1. This is supported by multiple lines of evidence (IPCC, NASA, CERES satellite data, and attribution modeling).
  2. Your estimate of 0.25°C unmasked warming from reduced aerosol cooling is reasonable — could even be on the conservative side.

?? One refinement:

That 0.25°C isn't separate from the 0.9°C — it's a component of it. So you're right to subtract it to isolate the warming caused directly by greenhouse gases.


…… ..


The rest of your material is mostly fluff and your standard argumentation….not worth bothering about



DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
15 Jul 2025, 16:56
#115
15 Jul 2025, 16:56#115

"CO2 is a greenhouse gas and man made CO2 emissions have probably added about 0.8 degreees of warming if we subtract out natural effects.


How do "they" calculate that probability? I have yet to see such a calculation...this should be a "simple" thermodynamics calc...how much CO2 is from cars, humans, fires, volcanos, etc. How much methane is from cattle farming, pig farms, human sewer treatment works, swamps etc...how much get added to the atmosphere per year per country, etc. When I hear phrases like "scientific consensus" or "most climate scientists agree" etc, I know it's a lot of nonsense. Show me formulas and calculations and where you got your variables from....that's science and no jargon BS to impress gullible fools...

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
15 Jul 2025, 17:52
#116
15 Jul 2025, 17:52#116

it’s not proven that it’s accelerating. The last 20 years have been affected by aerosol removal and El Niño which bumped temperatures by up to 0.2 degrees in 2023 and 2024.


It has been proven. Aerosol removal simply unmasked warming caused by man made CO2 emissions but the rate of temperature rise began to accelerate before a significant reduction of Aerosols. El Nino is a short term booster that only provides a short term booster to temperature, it can't


No we aren’t ….I’m shocked you don’t understand this. We increased 0.9 degrees from a base temperature that was depressed by aerosols in 1975. Increase the base by the aerosol effect and you get 0.65 degrees from all other warming factors. Perhaps Chat can help you grasp this:


Why would you increase the base when that 0.25 degrees of temperature rise is still driven by made made CO2 emissions.


That 0.25°C isn't separate from the 0.9°C — it's a component of it. So you're right to subtract it to isolate the warming caused directly by greenhouse gases.


Let's just put that into chat on its own exactly as above and you get.


?? Original Statement:

"That 0.25°C isn't separate from the 0.9°C — it's a component of it. So you're right to subtract it to isolate the warming caused directly by greenhouse gases."

?? Clarified Meaning:

  1. The 0.9°C refers to the total observed warming over a recent time frame (e.g., past few decades).
  2. The 0.25°C from aerosol unmasking is part of that total — it is not additional on top of the 0.9°C.

So when we say “subtract it,” it’s not subtracting something unrelated to GHGs — it’s a conceptual subtraction to help isolate:

How much of the observed warming is currently being expressed due to aerosol reduction, versus how much has been steadily accumulating from GHG emissions all along.

? Key Point:

The 0.25°C is still caused by GHGs — it just became visible because aerosols (which had masked it) are now declining.

So:

  1. The root cause of the full 0.9°C is anthropogenic GHGs
  2. But 0.25°C of that had been delayed from showing up due to aerosol cooling
  3. Now that aerosols are reduced, that delayed GHG warming is showing up more clearly

?? More Accurate Rewording Might Be:

“That 0.25°C of aerosol-unmasked warming is not in addition to the ~0.9°C observed — it’s a component of it. Subtracting it conceptually helps highlight how much warming had been temporarily hidden by aerosols, but the underlying driver of all the warming — including the unmasked part — is still greenhouse gases.”

So yes that 0.25 degrees is still caused by man made CO2 emissions.


The rest of your material is mostly fluff and your standard argumentation….not worth bothering about


I'll take that as the white flag been raised.


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jul 2025, 18:04
#117
15 Jul 2025, 18:04#117

Of course it is….but it occurred in the period 1945 to 1975…..depressing warming in that period. It then was added back in the period 1975 to 2024 which added to that period.


If aerosols never existed temps would have gone up 0.3 degrees before 1945 because of natural causes…0.25 degrees between 1945 and 1975 and 0.65 degrees between 1975 and 2024.


Totalling…..wait for it….1.2 degrees.


Now that we have dealt with the aerosol problem the pertinent question is what is the effect of all global warming forcers excluding aerosols. That turns out to be 0.65 degrees for the 49 years, during which about 35% of accessible reserves were used.


Do you finally grasp how wrong your argument is?

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
15 Jul 2025, 18:16
#118
15 Jul 2025, 18:16#118

How do "they" calculate that probability? I have yet to see such a calculation


You have yet to see it cause you haven't bothered your arse to look for it.


...this should be a "simple" thermodynamics calc...


Is this double speak for if I can't understand it I'm going to dismiss it.


how much CO2 is from cars, humans, fires, volcanos, etc. How much methane is from cattle farming, pig farms, human sewer treatment works, swamps etc...how much get added to the atmosphere per year per country, etc.


All of that data is available. Use chatgpt ask it how much CO2 comes from cars etc. All these sources are factored into the calculations. Natural and man made CO2 can be measured in the atmosphere by their different isotopes, so we know how much is man made and how much is natural CO2.


When I hear phrases like "scientific consensus" or "most climate scientists agree" etc, I know it's a lot of nonsense. Show me formulas and calculations and where you got your variables from....that's science and no jargon BS to impress gullible fools...


You call it nonsense for ideological reasons. Use chat as it about the formula's and calculations used then you ask it where did certain models get their variables from.


You're right that is science and it's what proves man made climate change is a real and occurring.


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jul 2025, 18:55
#119
15 Jul 2025, 18:55#119

Have you finally grasped your mistake….say yes if you agree….no if you don’t and then explain why 0.3 degrees of aerosol effect (Chat seems to prefer that number) should be added to other forcing variables in the 1975 to 2025 period, when we are trying to assess the effects of the ongoing variables going forward.


I’d recommend yes…and then we can get into more interesting problems not simple arithmetic.

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
15 Jul 2025, 21:38
#120
15 Jul 2025, 21:38#120


What would global temperatures be presently if there was no man made aerosols added to the atmosphere since the industrial revolution?


If no man-made aerosols had been added to the atmosphere since the Industrial Revolution, global temperatures today would likely be significantly higher—by approximately 0.5°C to 1.1°C more than current levels.

?? Estimated Impact on Global Temperature:

  1. Current (2020s) global warming relative to pre-industrial levels: ~1.2°C
  2. Estimated warming without anthropogenic aerosols: ~1.7°C to 2.3°C
  3. Therefore, aerosols have masked 0.5°C to 1.1°C of warming.

?? Why Do Aerosols Cool the Climate?

Human-emitted aerosols (e.g., sulfate aerosols, black carbon, organic carbon) influence climate in two main ways:

  1. Direct Radiative Forcing:
  2. Sulfate aerosols reflect sunlight back into space, creating a cooling effect.
  3. Indirect Effects on Clouds:
  4. Aerosols increase cloud brightness and lifetime, further amplifying the cooling by reflecting more solar radiation.

These effects counteract part of the warming caused by greenhouse gases (GHGs) like CO? and methane.

?? Key Findings from Climate Models (e.g., IPCC AR6):

  1. The net cooling effect of anthropogenic aerosols is estimated at ?0.5 to ?1.1°C.
  2. Without aerosols, we would have reached or surpassed the 1.5°C warming threshold already.
  3. This masking effect is temporary: once aerosols are reduced (as they are being now due to clean air policies), their cooling influence quickly fades (aerosols have short atmospheric lifetimes, days to weeks), while CO? stays in the atmosphere for centuries.

?? Supporting Source:

  1. IPCC AR6 (2021): Estimates total anthropogenic effective radiative forcing from aerosols at around ?1.1 W/m², compared to +3.9 W/m² from greenhouse gases.
  2. Climate models run with aerosols removed (aerosol-forcing-free simulations) consistently show ~0.5–1.1°C more warming.

?? Summary:

ScenarioApproximate Warming (vs. Pre-industrial)
Actual (with aerosols)~1.2°CWithout man-made aerosols~1.7°C to 2.3°C


So, in short: human-made aerosols have been "hiding" a significant portion of global warming, but as those aerosols are reduced, the full warming effect of greenhouse gases will be revealed—a major concern for climate policy


Next question


If that additional temperature rise that would of occurred if not for man made aerosols how much of it would of been attributed to man made CO2? .


Great question. If man-made aerosols had not masked part of the warming since the Industrial Revolution, the additional temperature rise (estimated at ~0.5°C to 1.1°C) would be mostly attributable to man-made CO? emissions — likely 70% to 90% or more of it.

?? Here's the breakdown:

1. Total Additional Warming without Aerosols:
  1. Estimated: +0.5°C to +1.1°C more warming than today.
2. Attribution to Greenhouse Gases (GHGs):
  1. The IPCC AR6 (2021) attributes warming from 1850–2019 roughly as follows:
  2. CO? alone: ~+1.5°C (if unmasked)
  3. Non-CO? GHGs (methane, N?O, etc.): ~+0.5°C
  4. Aerosols (cooling): ~?0.5°C to ?1.1°C

This suggests the aerosol cooling mostly offsets the warming from CO?, and to a lesser extent from other GHGs.

?? Detailed Contribution of CO?:

  1. CO? has contributed about 66–80% of total greenhouse gas warming (IPCC AR6, Figure 7.6).
  2. Therefore, of the unmasked additional warming (0.5°C–1.1°C):
  3. ~0.35°C to 0.9°C would be due to man-made CO? alone.

? Final Answer:

CategoryContribution to Extra Warming (°C)
Total extra warming+0.5°C to +1.1°CAttributed to CO?~+0.35°C to +0.9°C% Attributable to CO?~70% to 90%


So:

Roughly 70–90% of the additional warming that would have occurred without anthropogenic aerosols can be attributed to man-made CO? emissions.


So in reality man made CO2 actually drove the majority of not 1.2 degrees of heating since the industrial revolution, it actually drove somewhere between 1.7 to 2.3 degrees of heating, its just somewhere between 41% to 91% of that additional heating was being masked.





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