How can we stop the war?

.,

That ship has sailed and every day this continues puts Ukraine in a worse sport.

Except that's demonstrable not true.

Nobody likes losing a toe but the logic here seems to be that we should fight the gangrene until the last man...ultimately amputating both legs.

Cause giving up a "toe" worked out so well for Czechoslovakia.

There is only one way the War will stop and that is if the USA Biden Regime instruct their proxy Government in Kiev to stop the war.    The y keep the War going and the corruption attached to the War on the sides of both the Washington and Kiev Regimes keep it going,    

It is amazing how you say it is dangerous for people who opposes the war to speak out - yet you find dozens o videos in which you claim that people in Russia opposes the war.    Really funny  how you fall or every propaganda item you can find.   Nothing  they came up is factiual - it s merely variants of the same propaganda.             

Well ouMaaik if you regard street interviews conducted in Moscow as propaganda   ............................

A true & loyal Zbot

If Putin nuked a country, the religious rednecks would think it was the fault of the West

Is that demonstrating how they are better off now than they'd have been had negotiations been the focus?

Perhaps we have different ideas of what demonstrable means.

Well you're operating on the assumption that Putin could be negotiated with in good faith. I think after all that Putin has said and done, you'd have to be pretty naive to think that.

He wanted this war and nothing less than Ukraine accepting becoming a satellite state of Russia controlled by the Kremlin would of appeased Putin.

Ironically the Russian's would have been far better off negotiating. Even if they force territorial concessions from Ukraine, on a geo-strategic level they have already lost very badly. What remains of Ukraine will be turn its back on a Russia and integrate with the west with a much stronger sense of national identity. Russia's conventual military has been exposed as a paper tiger, having been severely degraded at comparatively little expense to the west while its adversary NATO has expanded and grown stronger and it will remain for the foreseeable future politically and economically isolated. No amount of Ukrainian territory will make up for that.

No, I'm operating under the assumption that we both have the same idea of what demonstrable means.

Would you like to retract that word and replace it with "speculative" ?

The Putin apologists keep banging on about how better negotiations would have prevented this war . . . in other words, give Putin what he wants. 

What a bunch of feeble limp-wristed little fops . . . the kind of people who would have still tried to appease Hitler after he invaded Poland . . . okay, you've taken the Sudetanland . . . and Czechoslovakia . . . and now you've taken Poland . . . that's all now, we're going to be angry if you invade anyone else.

We'd all be speaking German if these arselicking lily-livered pansies had been making the decisions back in 1939.

Too late, the cat is out of bag now.

Russia won't stop.

Negotiations and diplomacy were the answer.

That ship has sailed and every day this continues puts Ukraine in a worse sport.

Nobody likes losing a toe but the logic here seems to be that we should fight the gangrene until the last man...ultimately amputating both legs.

Because you have no way of knowing if a negotiated settlement was even possible. I mean how does Ukraine negotiate about committing genocide in the Donbass when they where not committing genocide in the Donbass.

As for the same idea of the term demonstrable, I've given an assessment (which can be backed up with sources) of the the battlefield situation which I thought you where referring too when you mentioned every day this continues to put Ukraine in a worse spot. I.E Ukraine is losing militarily. 

So if Ukraine's situation is improving militarily care to explain how Ukraine's situation is getting worse?

 Stav

I like your very informative info on the victories of the Ukraine army - source please.   

If you still do not realize who is really in charge of the Ukraine Government - you will never realize it.   There never was an independent Ukraine President not relying President not relying on  US Grant funding after all  the evidence presented on site you will never realize it.  Just two quick examples -

*     Biden taking a loan guarantee of  $1 billion blackmailing the Ukraine Government to fire the Prosecutor who were investigating the Ukraine Prosecutor who had the office and house of the main owner of Burisma - the company on which  Hunter Biden was a Board member and each of Biden and Hunter was paid $5 million by Burisma for services rendered - while Hunter got a stipend for doing nothing of $83 000 a month - reasonable people call that corruption; and

*     Zelenskyy campaigned to get elected at president on the issue he raised was to find a peaceful solution to the Civil War in Eastern Ukraine through negotiation with Russia, but was forced to change that on the insistence of US Politicians - followed by a peace agreement  he signed with Putin based on negotiations conducted by Macron in 2022 - again sabotaged by the Biden Administration and Boris Johnson.  

Zelenskyy  is nothing more than a puppet of the USA and so is his Government.   

Now lets get the genocide story straight - where did you get that from?  There is no real proof of genocide on either side.   So please provide proof of that allegation.   There is indeed proof that senior Government officials and the Ukraine Government itself wants to practice ethnic cleansing to get rid of Russian speaking people living in Ukraine.    There is no chance of peace as long as that threat is in existence. 

You must have gone bonkers with a statement that  Putin wanted the war - if eh did why did he signed two treaties to prevent war and both were signed by the Ukraine Presidents as well.   There paymasters in Washington caused the problem and the war in Ukraine is a direct result ocf the insane Government in Washington.                

I’m 100% with Rooinek on this the choice was subjugation or war, as yet another puffed up little man thought invading a weaker country was  the answer.

China and Russia have both made terrible mistakes during Covid. The Chinese lockdowns have seriously disrupted the economy, they are doing far worse than the West.

Russia engaged in a war they thought they could wrap up quickly before serious consequences took place and present the world with a fait accompli. They failed badly, the whole Prigozhin farce only occurred because they failed. Otherwise all these butchers would be congratulating each other in Moscow.

And so we suddenly have a renewed effort at Brics. Nothing has been achieved or will be achieved, but leaders shaking hands in a foreign country is a useful distraction.

 Stav

I like your very informative info on the victories of the Ukraine army - source please.   

Picture of Ukrainian flag flying in Robotyne, taken a couple of days.

imi (m) on X: "bobr FPV hits AFU infantry. good AFU advance Location: 47.421202452, 35.8889785486 @UAControlMap @GeoConfirmed https://t.co/4vigTL4cI9" / X (twitter.com)

This link above geolocated footage of Ukrainian forces south of Robotyne.

If you still do not realize who is really in charge of the Ukraine Government - you will never realize it.   There never was an independent Ukraine President not relying President not relying on  US Grant funding after all  the evidence presented on site you will never realize it.  Just two quick examples -

You live in a world of far right conspiracy theories. Not worth time responding to such rubbish.

Now lets get the genocide story straight - where did you get that from?  There is no real proof of genocide on either side.   So please provide proof of that allegation. 

Mike would you ever calm dowb and try to type a sentence that isn't an incoherent mess.

Where did I get what from? That the Russian's claimed Ukraine was committing genocide in the Donbass? Putin himself made the suggestion. It was one of Russia's supposed reasons for their special military operation. You and other's like Beeno have repeated it and have claimed 14,000 people where killed by Ukrainan's.

Except Russian never provided any credible evidence to back up such a claim. As far as I can recall they did provide some pictures taken from a distance of what appears to be a mound of heavily decomposed bodies to support their claim. No close up examination of the bodies by third parties was permitted and judging from the decomposition of the bodies it was speculated who ever was in that mound was dead several years.

The UN found no evidence of genocide and causalities number published by the separatists in Luhansk showed no evidence of Genocide but of a conflict largely frozen and of yearly death figures from the conflict being in decline.

Russia has banded about the number 14,000 killed by Ukraine in the alleged genocide of which you and Beeno have repeated several times, but as I've already told you multiple times (which you always ignore) that's the total number killed on both sides before Russia's full scale invasion, most of which are actually combatants not civilians and of those civilians killed its usually from artillery and mines and the like and that's civilians on both sides. You of course always unquestionable push the Russian narrative.

You must have gone bonkers with a statement that  Putin wanted the war - if eh did why did he signed two treaties to prevent war and both were signed by the Ukraine Presidents as well

Why did he not withdraw his forces from the separatists regions as per those peace agreements? Why did he stage false flag attack in the run up to war?. Why did he lie about Ukraine committing genocide and Nazi's running Ukraine? etc etc.

"I’m 100% with Rooinek on this the choice was subjugation or war, as yet another puffed up little man thought invading a weaker country was  the answer."

If the choice is war, there should be full NATO involvement...the proxy war is not sustainable...is NATO prepared for a direct confrontation with Russia AND China?...I think not...this is not as simple as most think....

PS...by this time you should know that if you are "100% with Rudeneck",  you are dead wrong and should have your head examined ASAP!!!...I'm not kidding.

PPS...This is not WWII, Putin is not Hitler, Ukraine is not Poland...and Hitler didn't have thousands of nukes...this is what you get when you cheat an idiot into the Whitehouse...

This binary thinking will be the end of the world long before "Climate Change" comes to fruition...but yeah Putin is a devil and Orange man bad...but let's trust the genius who ran out of Afghanistan with his tail between his legs...you can't make up this sh!t...

B S There were no troop withrawals possible before the invasion of Ukraine in 2022 - there were no Russian troops stationed in the Donbas regio0n.

By the way- there is no conspirascy theory as to the issue of control of the Ukraine Government by the USA .   

Both treaties excluded the Crimea - which by 2015 voted in a referendum to join Russia after the Ukraine'     It is facts confirmed by documentation and the fact it every realist realize the control of the Ukraine Government on anything is not possible on key issues - those are all decided on by Washington.     It started off with the selection of the Interim Government by Nuland - she bragged about how ss he and Biden decided on the Government and after that Poroshenko surrendered meekly to US instructions on firing the prosecutor - Biden bragged about that one in a video recording  too.    

Why do you think the ex-US allies are deserting  the USA alliance and joining BRICS.   They do not trust the Biden Regime to not try the same stunt in their countries that the USA did pulled off in Ukraine.   When Blinken came to SA to try and convinced the SA Government to get the other countries in Africa to support the  USA on the Ukraine issue he was given a lecture about the US conduct on the issue and sent packing.   The next step of the USA is to send Nuland to SA - frankly we do not trust the bitch after what she did in Ukraine in 2014.   SA has enough problems without having a civil war stoked up by the USA.

As to the genocide story - the garbage you came up with above is unbelievable - the reason for the Ukraine War had zero to do with the start of the Invasion by Russia of Ukraine.    You claimed Russia was committing genocide in Ukraine and asked for proof of your allegation.  What came up was unbelievable gibberish.    

Sources?

If the choice is war, there should be full NATO involvement...the proxy war is not sustainable...is NATO prepared for a direct confrontation with Russia AND China?...I think not...this is not as simple as most think....

Well its not really fair to saw war is the "choice" for Ukraine. They got invaded they didn't have a choice. Its like saying Poland chose war when Germany invaded.

Now you can make the argument that NATO should go full hog and get involved directly in the fighting. Some have suggested Russia would have to stop the war immediately because they know they would have no hope of winning but the fear is that Russia if it felt it was being backed into a corner too suddenly they might escalate to nukes. There is also the little fact that NATO doesn't get to decide what conflicts its involved in outside article 5 been triggered, but that's up to the member states and while most member states have populations that favour supporting Ukraine that in most member states would not translate into support for directly getting involved in the war and the risk of nuclear escalation.

PS...by this time you should know that if you are "100% with Rudeneck",  you are dead wrong and should have your head examined ASAP!!!...I'm not kidding.

Hmm being rude doesn't make him wrong in this case. 

PPS...This is not WWII, Putin is not Hitler, Ukraine is not Poland...and Hitler didn't have thousands of nukes...this is what you get when you cheat an idiot into the Whitehouse...

Yes this is not WWII and no Putin and Hitler are not the same but their are some dangerous similarities in terms of them willing to use force of arms for territorial expansion. I'm not really seeing a whole lot of difference between Poland and Ukraine to be honest? Yes Hitler didn't have nukes (though Germany where trying to develop them) but allowing nuclear blackmail to succeed will only encourage more of it. 

And for crying out loud there was no conspiracy to get Biden into the White House, and this war is not of his doing.

This binary thinking will be the end of the world long before "Climate Change" comes to fruition...but yeah Putin is a devil and Orange man bad...but let's trust the genius who ran out of Afghanistan with his tail between his legs...you can't make up this sh!t...

Putin is a pretty despicable human being and Orange man bad trope is not a defence against 91 felony charges, so trying to imply unfair binary perception in either cases is just nonsense. And again why is about Biden. Yes Afghanistan was a debacle and yes he plays a significant role in enabling support to Ukraine but he has the support of most elected representatives and the people of the US. He's not making these decision on his own, nor is he dictating strategy and tactics to Ukraine. He's not making Ukraine fight on, its the people of Ukraine who decide that, nor is Biden alone in supporting Ukraine, so is all of NATO and other countries outside of NATO.

What you can't make up, is the unbelievable bias peoples political views lead them too.

"Unlike you Draad, I am not locked into preset positions"

But, I'm not...I'm telling you, that Ukraine will run out of human resources before Russia does...then NATO should step in and help in a direct confrontation with Russia or all the deaths will be in vain...or are you saying Ukraine has a bigger source of soldiers than the Ruskies...I saw what the Boer War did to my volkie...and although we put up a good fight for 3 years, we were never gonna beat the Poms, so all those lives lost were in vain ...all the women and kids in the concentration camps...a whole generation lost? As a mathematician,  how do you calculate a win for Ukraine...only a year and a half in?

I'm all ears...I can't stand Putin...or China...they are my enemy, but that's not the issue...people are dieing every day and a country is being destroyed...there is no simple solution and throwing money at the problem won't solve it.

PS, what happened in WWII, when America refused to get involved in the war, but still supplied Britain with arms? Germany did what again?

B S There were no troop withrawals possible before the invasion of Ukraine in 2022 - there were no Russian troops stationed in the Donbas regio0n.

LOL. Just LOL. If you believe that, I've a bridge in San Francisco I'd like to sell you.

PPS...NATO is already too involved...everyone knows they're already at war with Russia,  just a matter of time before there's full escalation...reckless to the extreme...the sheeple is unaware though.

Erm no...what event made the Yanks join the war effort in Europe?

Well the experts that are quoted on here were all saying it would be over in weeks. The Ukrainians have been epic. Eventually as in most things numbers will dominate, but the calculus is that the sanctions against Russia and wealthy Russians will have an effect and they will negotiate in good faith.

Whether Ukraine will want to continue the tragedy is a fair question. But life under the Russian heel doesn’t appeal to them, and it would be worse than ever after the humiliation Russia has endured. They show every resolve to fight on.

And if they are ever occupied the fight won’t end there…no Russian will be safe in Ukraine.

We are witnessing the Boer War, the Blitz….hell Thermopylae again.   The bravest resistance I can remember observing. If they want to fight are we going to ask them to do that with pitchforks?

Erm no...what event made the Yanks join the war effort in Europe?

Germany and Italy declaring war on the US?

It is amazing that the PutinZ's like DumbMike claim that people should negotiate with Putin. 
Putin is a murderer who routinely kills opposition, this is not someone with negotiation skills.

Putin's undoubtedly more mafia gangster than presidential.

"Germany and Italy declaring war on the US?"

Exactly...and I wonder why they did that...Putin is way more dangerous than Hitler ever was...luckily the world and the human race have evolved a bit the last 80 odd years or we would have been in much bigger trouble...as it is, there's still time to fix this.

Italy did it because they where following Germany. Why Germany is actually quite intetresting and a little complicated.

What Russian troops were in Eastern Ukraine before 2022 -  have you go any proof of any?   The rebels in Eastern Ukraine did their own fighting - Russia providing  them with weapons for the purpose:     That was no difference from the USA providing the Ukraine Army with armaments.

The fact is you talk about conspiracy theories buy others and you are the person who never produce any evidence other than news media reports  promoting the war in Ukraine.    Anybody that provided proof  like for instance Biden bragging how he got the Ukraine prosecutor fired     He got himself in hot water on the issue and tried to lie his way out by claiming  the EU and UK wanted the man fired Because he was not doing anything about corruption in Ukraine.  He nevcer produced any proof of any correspondence on that issue.    You fell for the BS totally - but in new evidence came out that Biden got $5 million for that favor he did to Burisma af ter the Police raided the home and offices of the main owner of Burisma -  the fm of which Hunter was on the  Board     Typical example of Biden - threaten them withs topping the money supply to Ukraine unless you are obedient. 

It is no conspiracy theory Biden and Nuland decided on the Interim Government that Biden and Nuland appointed after the  2014 coup.     They decided on the appointees and made it very clear what they want done.     The threat of withholding US aid was ever-present since 2014  and wh en Trump decided to buy weaponry in the USA instead of cash aid - Pelosi and Schiff lost their kickbacks and they tried to impeach Trump..    Sinve the war broke out in 2022  US Aid promised was $40 billion in arms aid and the rest in cash.   Docunental proof is that the cash payments amounted to  $77  billion - but the money was supposed to be for structural government services.   Where that money went nobody knows.

There appears to be a consensus here that Russia never warned anyone where their red line was.

That no matter what anybody said, or gave away, Russia would invade anyway. Is this also "demonstrable", Stav?

I'm not convinced. 

I'm also not convinced that giving Russia the toe, under the promise that any further action would be considered an act of war against the West, and result in the harshest response, would not have nipped things in the budd.

Why are all of you so sure?

 There appears to be a consensus here that Russia never warned anyone where their red line was.

Oh they did they just undermined it by making up shit about genocide and Nazi's. If it was all about NATO why lie about the rest? 

That no matter what anybody said, or gave away, Russia would invade anyway. Is this also "demonstrable", Stav?

I'm not convinced. 

No I can't say for certain. But I don't think Putin would of accepted anything else that a Pro Russian regime installed in Kyiv and the defacto end of Ukrainian independence.

I'm also not convinced that giving Russia the toe, under the promise that any further action would be considered an act of war against the West, and result in the harshest response, would not have nipped things in the budd.

Well he already had a toe in Crimea and the Donbass but he wanted more and...wait a minute..WTF, WOW HOLY SHIT AM I SMOKING CRACK...did you actually just type that.

So let me get this straight your solution to Russia's red line that Ukraine can never ever be permitted to join NATO is to not allow Ukraine to join NATO but make Ukraine a defacto signature of NATO's article 5?. You like actually think that Russia would of accepted that...for REALZ and not for DA LOLZ? 

Why are all of you so sure?

Because of the nature of Putin, the Russian state, the false flag and misinformation, Putin publish essays on why Ukraine is not a real state etc.