Migration

Indian curry is my favorite cuisine followed by Malaysian curry...readily available on my doorstep.

That would work if any report you could get actually included undocumented immigrants / migrants, of which there are millions here in SA..... far more than any census or population report out there can accurately give you

So I'm going take that as an acknowledgment you can't actually point to any credible numbers.

but you would never know this, because you don't live here, you don't know what life is like here, who walks the streets, who commits the daily crimes, who comes to your door or business every week looking for domestic house work, gardening work, building work, tiling jobs, construction etc etc

So are we back to arguing you can't comment on issues in another country because you don't live there? I'm not interested in opinions based on anecdotal evidence, they are utterly worthless.

you just basically blindly believe what you read, which is something I have said about you before.... in so many ways you really are quite oblivious to what is going on in the world..... maybe get your nose out of all the articles you read and actually see what is going on around you

No, I'm just better at critical thinking than you are and not emotionally driven.

Talk to the local inhabitants, citizens, residents...etc etc..... because you know absolutely nothing, and you are completely out of touch with reality and what is happening on the ground..... and sadly, this includes the UK.

Oh I do, some of them express views similar to yourself though mostly not quite as strident as yours. Others share my own views or similar. Immigration is an issue in Ireland, but it's a relatively new one only really becoming an issue following an immigration wave of Ukrainian's in 2022 (which most Irish supported). Generally the negative views centre around immigration centre around crime and strain on resources but talk of the Irish being replaced by immigrants remains the talk of conspiracist nutters and fringe right wing groups.

Now on the topic of immigrants being responsible for crime, I've little sympathy for this argument. As I've already pointed out the most credible research on the topic across multiple countries show immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate, which to me this is not surprising because they risk double punishment of prison then deportation. Now if you do move a large cluster of immigrants to a small town you will win get more crime by the simple fact the larger a population there is the more crime you get. But you would have the same effect if not more if a large number of native people also happened to move to the area in one go.

My own personal experience which is purely anecdotal is I've noticed no change in the levels of crime. I've actually very little experience with crime directly and while I've come across incidents of crime or anti social behaviour over the years all of it was by native Irish people.

Official crime figures here are steady, I believe violent crime is down but some other forms of crime are up.

When it comes to resources, there is more of an argument here, immigrants both legal and irregular are contributing to the housing shortage issue. But this is primarily a legacy of the 2008 economic crash when Irelands property bubble burst and subsequent government policy and their failure to deliver on housing targets. Take the immigrants out and Ireland still has a housing crisis, just not quite as bad.

As for health care, the Irish health care system which is already in a pretty shoddy state would collapse without immigrants. Take out use of health care services by Irregular immigrants which would be marginal and it again doesn't significantly change the picture.

Then when it comes to the topic of the Irish being replaced culturally, I don't see it. Ireland's culture is still alive and kicking though its evolving as it always has. Yes I've noticed more foreign looking people but they are still very a clear minority (though obviously a person can look like a native and be foreign be they Poles, British, French, American etc). My neighbours are Polish, absolutely lovely people not an issue with them. There's Indian's living in an apartment above me, but I've had no almost no interaction with them which is the same for the majority of the people in my apartment block who are mostly Irish. The increase of foreigners doesn't bother me in anyway, doesn't affect my life in any way.

Yes, and to be honest, I genuinely still am laughing at you ..... only because, for a seemingly intelligent guy, you are incredibly out of touch with reality... you are so in your own little bubble.

Do you really believe there is 20 million illegal immigrants in South Africa?

Neither is ignorance

I'm still waiting for your rebuttal regarding the actual concern of migrants becoming the majority population in certain European countries, as per what this thread was actually created for..... I am not talking about crime stats like you mentioned earlier, or anything else migrant related.... just the fact that you don't think that migrants will be the majority population in a few decades from now, and that this will not happen by 2080 - 2100 which is what you posted above, so then provide a published article that actually proves this.... and I will gladly offer an opinion, because at the moment it seems like you are avoiding it.

No credible statistician or academic journal has projections that any European country will have a majority immigrant population by 2080 or 2100, the only possible exception is Luxembourg which has a very small population and the vast majority of immigrants there are European.

Your original post from Gork made the claim, that Pew Research, Eurostat and the UN along with Eric Kaufmann and Matt Goodwin projecting native populations will become minorities in their countries by mid to late 21st century/

I can find no evidence on line that either Pew Research, Eurostat or the UN published any research indicating that. Nothing.

Then we get to Kaufmann and Goodwin (a right wing populist and political pundit with a rather spotty track record). They have made projections that native populations will become minorities by the mid to late 21st century. However those projections are for white ethnic majorities, so they can exclude non white native people of mixed or immigrant descent. It's a fiddle of the numbers.

You're the one making the claim that natives will become the minority in Europe by the mid to late 21st century yet you haven't posted any credible data to back that claim up.

I have many Muslim friends - most of them are religious and adhere to the teachings of Mohammed - whic include fighing the infdels and capture them turning them into Muslims and if they refuse kill them.

Wait so you have Muslims friends that are going around attacking and forcible converting non Muslims into Muslims...yet they didn't kill or convert you?

My bollocks you do.

Just when you think the man can't get any dumber.

@Stav,

Japan wants to remain ethnically Japanese (or even racially) .

So do China.

So do many in Europe.

So do many in Africa. (E.g. Africa is for Africans).

Sure, historically the makeup has been changed over time from past imperial warfare. That was a long time ago, and this has not been significant in ages.

The problem with the developing world is that their economies can't sustain their rapid population growth - which is much higher than at any point in history - combined with the longest life expectancy due to modern day medicines etc.

Most people were open to the idea of refugees, until the numbers became too high. If a boat shows up on Dover beach enroute from France, how many of those people were/still are part of Hammas, Hebolahs etc, etc. That is on top of people not even knowing how to speak English and with limited education.

So I'm going take that as an acknowledgment you can't actually point to any credible numbers

Well, unlike you, I know I cannot accurately account for illegals or undocumented people, of which there are millions, so I know that these reports are tainted... but at least I can be honest about that and admit it....... where as you won't even consider it.

These numbers here tell their own story, especially taking into account undocumented / illegal people

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/interactive-publications/migration-2024

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Migration_to_and_from_the_EU

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Migration_to_and_from_the_EU#Immigration_by_country_of_previous_residence

There are many other articles providing the numbers, but what the hell does that matter anyway, right.

Keep in mind, that I am not debating the fluctations or declines or increases from year to year on how many immigrants come in to the EU, I am talking about the end result in a few decades from now.

So are we back to arguing you can't comment on issues in another country because you don't live there? I'm not interested in opinions based on anecdotal evidence, they are utterly worthless.

So are reports which are not even close to being accurate at all......you are very naive.

Again in the news today, Spanish residents sunbathing on a beach, actually tackled and restrained migrants getting off a boat at their beach, and they sat on them, there on the beach... until the police arrived..... finally, someone is doing something.......but don't you worry, in your ideal world, all these migrants around the world are getting accurately accounted for and numbered, so the next report you read will be updated and accurate to paint you a true picture of what is really happening on your own doorstep......LMAO, what a farce.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14971691/Incredible-moment-migrants-detained-Spanish-beach-tackled-ground-tourists.html?ito=native_share_article-nativemenubutton

No, I'm just better at critical thinking than you are and not emotionally driven

If critical thinking is living and experiencing what you do in your imaginary little bubble, you are bloody right man.... you excel at it.

Do you really believe there is 20 million illegal immigrants in South Africa?

No,.. I was referencing and responding to you always knowing best about what is happening in South Africa.... despite you not living here and probably having never been here...... but you always tend to do that to people on here......I think it's that emotional side you don't often refer to, lol.....but did I genuinely laugh at your 4.8% number.... yes I really did, because it is ignorance of the highest order.

Then we get to Kaufmann and Goodwin (a right wing populist and political pundit with a rather spotty track record). They have made projections that native populations will become minorities by the mid to late 21st century. However those projections are for white ethnic majorities, so they can exclude non white native people of mixed or immigrant descent. It's a fiddle of the numbers.

You're the one making the claim that natives will become the minority in Europe by the mid to late 21st century yet you haven't posted any credible data to back that claim up.

So there is not one single report at all, that can dispute what quite a lot of people involved in migrant control, reasearch or studies have being saying for a while now, regarding the concern about the huge influx of migrants across Europe in the next few decades... I mean surely if someone or anyone disputed any of this, there would be some kind of report, article, published research..... surely...it's not like this concern only came about recently......yet you cannot find anything at all..... not even one article..... to say that this is definitely not a concern or a reality, and that people are just making this a problem out of nothing at all.......yet there are so many articles or posts and concerns on the Migrant numbers increasing all over Europe........thats very strange hey.....I mean... nothing at all.......well.... I guess I can only assume that the very reason there are no rebuttal posts, arguments or articles out there to dispute this, is because it can't be disputed.

The problem with the developing world is that their economies can't sustain their rapid population growth - which is much higher than at any point in history - combined with the longest life expectancy due to modern day medicines etc.

Shark, do you believe that there is a serious and valid concern regarding the influx of migrants into Europe, that could completely reshape Europe before 2100.

Japan wants to remain ethnically Japanese (or even racially) .

And where has that got them, its a major contributing factor to their stagnant economy for the last 30 years. They are also now starting to open up to immigration in belated attempt to try to improve economic growth.

So do many in Europe.

Because of so much misinformation being published about immigration by populists and grifters. To take one example, The Times in the UK published an article that migrant's coming across via the illegal boat crossings were 24 times more likely to go to prison than British people. Their report was in turn reported on by various right wing media sources in the UK, the Daily Express, the Daily Mail and The Telegraph, it was picked up by GB News and Talk TV. The original source for the claim was that it was an analysis by of Conservative Party, though no data or sources where actually published.

However there is a scientist online named Emma Monk who frequently looks into these right wing claims and after digging into how the numbers where deduced showed it was complete bollocks.

https://monkdebunks.substack.com/p/are-small-boat-migrants-really-24x

And this is the problem with the whole immigration debate, just endless amount of disinformation that's even coming from mainstream news sources which you would think are credible, I mean if its been pushed by so many sources people are bound to start thinking their is something too it so it ends up skewing peoples perception. Conflation of normal immigration with irregular immigration that gives the impression that there is far more irregular immigrants than their actually is and then disinformation about irregular immigrants claiming benefits or their crime rates. In the UK the small boat crossing completely overshadows regular immigration which is far far higher, but the migrant boat crossing only account for maybe 3% of total immigrants coming into the UK.

Sure, historically the makeup has been changed over time from past imperial warfare. That was a long time ago, and this has not been significant in ages.

No it's a constant ongoing process since the beginning of human civilization.

Most people were open to the idea of refugees, until the numbers became too high. If a boat shows up on Dover beach enroute from France, how many of those people were/still are part of Hammas, Hebolahs etc, etc. That is on top of people not even knowing how to speak English and with limited education.

Well what is too high? Because most people don't seem to have a clue of the actual numbers. You could literally drop irregular immigration to zero and people would still say their is too many immigrants.

How about establishing safe routes to seek Asylum, the French are said they are happy to open to have processing centre open in Northern France to process British asylum applicants processed their. This way you reduce illegal immigration into the UK and undermine the criminal gangs bringing them over. You then know who's coming over into the UK if their asylum application is accepted. If their application is rejected and they still try to cross over into the UK and are caught they can be instantly deported as their application has been already processed and rejected, no having to put them up in accommodation while their application is processed.

Also how is anyone from Hamas who actually are not a global jihadist organisation are supposed to get anyone out of Gaza though the Israel blockade? Hamas and Hezbollah are actually enemies of ISIS and Al-Qaeda.

As for language, a large percentage of illegal migrants who are trying to get to the UK do so for two reasons. One is the language, they speak it because of Britain's colonial past or because its basically the defacto 2nd language of the world. The 2nd reason is they have some cultural connection to the UK, for example they have served with the British in Afghanistan or they already have family living in the UK. Irregular immigration into the UK isn't as some like to portray it driven by the UK being a soft touch and given out benefits willy nilly.

So your view is unlimited immigration of people who believe in a different god and the need for that god to prevail, a different legal system, aren’t well educated and arrive needing financial help and medical care is the best path for the people living in that country now. Got it.

Well, unlike you, I know I cannot accurately account for illegals or undocumented people, of which there are millions, so I know that these reports are tainted... but at least I can be honest about that and admit it....... where as you won't even consider it.

Okay at least acknowledging you don't have data to back up what your saying. LOL of course reports that contradict your world view are tainted, just listen to yourself man. And you accuse me of being all "I know best". You appear to live in a world where facts don't matter at least not compared to your gut feeling.

These numbers here tell their own story, especially taking into account undocumented / illegal people

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/interactive-publications/migration-2024

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Migration_to_and_from_the_EU

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Migration_to_and_from_the_EU#Immigration_by_country_of_previous_residence

There are many other articles providing the numbers, but what the hell does that matter anyway, right.

What are those links suppose to prove?. They make no projections about the future population of immigrants. They are not proof of recent numbers not a projection of future, your just trying out links to stats that are not related to the point in the hope it makes you look more credible.

So are reports which are not even close to being accurate at all......you are very naive.

What reports, Irelands official crime statistics or research that shows migrants are less likely to commit crimes. What reason have to doubt Irelands crime figures. If its the research that show immigrant crime is at lower rates than the native population, if your arguing well that doesn't include illegal immigrants who haven't be caught well duh it almost doesn't include native people who haven't been caught either.

Again in the news today, Spanish residents sunbathing on a beach, actually tackled and restrained migrants getting off a boat at their beach, and they sat on them, there on the beach... until the police arrived..... finally, someone is doing something.......but don't you worry, in your ideal world, all these migrants around the world are getting accurately accounted for and numbered, so the next report you read will be updated and accurate to paint you a true picture of what is really happening on your own doorstep......LMAO, what a farce.

Finally someone's doing something?...you do realise most European countries are enacting structing immigration controls and have setup things like offshore asylum processing, numbers of immigrants are down this year.

No,.. I was referencing and responding to you always knowing best about what is happening in South Africa.... despite you not living here and probably having never been here...... but you always tend to do that to people on here......I think it's that emotional side you don't often refer to, lol.....but did I genuinely laugh at your 4.8% number.... yes I really did, because it is ignorance of the highest order.

I know best, you keep lecturing me about not knowing what's happening on my doorstep? So what country do you actually live in so I can dismiss any opinion you have on issues in other countries.

As for emotion, I'm coming from a position of facts, you're the one who's world view is based on gut feelings and emotions. Data that contradicts what your saying can be dismissed without evidence as tainted.

So what is the actually percentage of illegal immigrants in South Africa and where did you come up with those numbers, because if you can't back up what your saying with data then stop talking about other people being ignorant.

So there is not one single report at all,

The EuroPop 2024 projections (and before you call their validity into question they are part of Eurostat who you have already cited multiple times) put the current immigrant population at 10% of the EU plus Iceland Norway and Switzerland and project the immigration population to reach between 20-25% by 2100.

that can dispute what quite a lot of people involved in migrant control, reasearch or studies have being saying for a while now, regarding the concern about the huge influx of migrants across Europe in the next few decades... I

It's directly disputed by more credible research bodies, who are happy to publish their methodology and they don't cherry pick data.

I mean surely if someone or anyone disputed any of this, there would be some kind of report, article, published research..... surely...it's not like this concern only came about recently......yet you cannot find anything at all..... not even one article.....

Emmm here you go...https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/population-demography/population-projections/database

to say that this is definitely not a conern or a reality, and that people are just making this a problem out of nothing at all.......yet there are so many articles or posts and concerns on the Migrant numbers increasing all over Europe........thats very strange hey

The hard data does not support the idea that natives will be replaced by immigrants in 2100. I don't care if lots of people are saying it could, that's just opinion driven by a populist narrative.

..I mean... nothing at all.......well.... I guess I can only assume that the very reason there are no rebuttal posts, arguments or articles out there to dispute this, is because it can't be disputed.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

@Stav,

This is all pretty subjective, but the Democratic consensus is to reduce immigration from certain countries.

Independents and conservatives, by a vast majority, support reducing immigration accordingly, even some of the left wing.

Less low skill immigration will drive up the wages of lower earners here as a result of supply/demand. It will also boost innovation, like automation and AI, to remove lower-skilled and repetitive tasks.

A country should be choosing who gets in, and ideally, it is a points-based system - or a reciprocal give and take relationship. (For example, 10,000 people from Canada move to Europe each year, then 10,000 Europeans get accepted in return).

So your view is unlimited immigration of people

Where did I say anything about unlimited immigration.

who believe in a different god and the need for that god to prevail

I assume your referring to Muslims here, what do you mean by need for their god to prevail, do you think the Muslim population in general has sort of plan to forcible convert us all or kill us if we don't?

a different legal system.

And?...doesn't make them exempt from legal system in the country they have emigrated too.

aren’t well educated and arrive needing financial help and medical care is the best path for the people living in that country now. Got it.

According to analysis by the EU Commission those who are successfully granted asylum tend over the long run to have neither a neutral or marginal net benefit to the public finances of the countries they get asylum in. Now you could argue that when you factor in processing failing asylum seekers the overall cost is a net negative but it would be pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. Last year the UK spent £5.38 billion on the Asylum system up from £3.95 billion in 2023 that compares to the size of the UK economy which is £2.56 trillion.

This is all pretty subjective, but the Democratic consensus is to reduce immigration from certain countries.

Well it might well be the case that the current consensus in democratic countries is too reduce immigration in general, though when you say specific countries we start wondering into Islamophobic territory and I'm not sure you will have a majority of people who are comfortable singling out specific countries.

But in a democratic country your free to argue your position and try to change peoples opinion and consensus opinion can change over time. Donald Trump was in a way the consensus choice of American's to be President, doesn't mean all American's suddenly have to agree with his policies.

Stav, people may not have publicly created a list sorted by the people they least like, but we can be sure that Muslims are the leaders of the pack.

The far right in Europe has risen on the back of Muslim sentiments. If they are competitive in elections on one policy, it is seen as a big issue. However, many just want a mainstream party (left or right) that is experienced in governing to address this issue. It can't just be labelled far-right if many in the mainstream support this.

Stav, people may not have publicly created a list sorted by the people they least like, but we can be sure that Muslims are the leaders of the pack.

Well again it could well be but its shaped by media narratives.

The far right in Europe has risen on the back of Muslim sentiments. If they are competitive in elections on one policy, it is seen as a big issue. However, many just want a mainstream party (left or right) that is experienced in governing to address this issue. It can't just be labelled far-right if many in the mainstream support this.

Funny enough I just seen this clip today which sort of talk about this very point.

All in...

"but the migrant boat crossing only account for maybe 3% of total immigrants coming into the UK"

And you know this how...... how can you accurately say this is true

This is exactly like when you said before that the Fentanyl smuggling across from Canada to the US was almost non-existent or minimal due to the number of people that were caught.

Okay at least acknowledging you don't have data to back up what your saying

Your data is no more different or better or more accurate

"You appear to live in a world where facts don't matter

What facts....

What reports, Irelands official crime statistics or research that shows migrants are less likely to commit crimes. What reason have to doubt Irelands crime figures

This is your go to all the time..... I will say again, I am not discussing migrant crime in this thread, I am specifically discussing the overall immigration numbers, which you repeatedly keep trying to avoid by making this all about crime stats, which it isn't.

Finally someone's doing something?...you do realise most European countries are enacting structing immigration controls and have setup things like offshore asylum processing, numbers of immigrants are down this year

I am referring to citizens who have finally had enough of this madness, not the government or authorities

I know best, you keep lecturing me about not knowing what's happening on my doorstep?

Because you don't

However, many just want a mainstream party (left or right) that is experienced in governing to address this issue. It can't just be labelled far-right if many in the mainstream support this.

Stav does, always has, and always will

Shark, why not answer my question....

And you know this how...... how can you accurately say this is true

Because we know how many regular immigrants are coming into the UK, we also the figure for documented/recorded irregular immigrants are coming into the UK and we know of those recorded illegal immigrations 81% of coming via small boats crossing the channel.

What we don't have definitive figures on how irregular immigrants get into the UK each year undetected via small boats each year. But its believed to be quite low for a number reasons. Firstly its actually quite hard to cross the English channel undetected, being one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world even without the high amount of surveillance by the British an French Those that do get across and land are often quickly spotted by local people or CCTV and reported, then detained and recorded in the actual numbers which makes because for most people who are getting across they have no way mean's of transportation away from where they land they are on foot. Many of them simply wanted to cross to claim asylum in the first place so they are not actually trying to evade detection once they land on English soil.

Now that's not to say a certain amount get through and may have pre-arranged transport waiting, but their is no evidence of that occurring on a large scale.

Even if you say a couple of thousand are getting through each year via boat crossing and remaining undocumented it doesn't move the needle when you look at total immigration into the UK.

This is exactly like when you said before that the Fentanyl smuggling across from Canada to the US was almost non-existent or minimal due to the number of people that were caught.

Because no evidence was presented to suggest it was anything more than a minimal problem. You have no idea how much is being smuggled over undetected, but if you want to claim it's a significant amount then back up with estimates from credible sources.

Your data is no more different or better or more accurate

I've pointed out the biased nature of the sources of the research you presented, anti immigration right wing think tanks and political pundits, I've also pointed out flaws in their methodology. You ducked the question on whole White British thing. You also linked to credible sources Eurostat that didn't support you argument but subsequently turned out to have published research that supported by arguments.

Eurostat is a department of the European commission that provides the EU with statistical information. The accuracy of that information is crucial for the running of the EU as a whole. It's also a department that employs an estimated 500-800 people. They are miles more credible than one man think thanks with unknown funding, or political commentators with very spotty track records.

What facts....

The fact that you just dismiss credible reputable research without being able to stat why, it's tainted or wrong just because it doesn't support your world view.

This is your go to all the time..... I will say again, I am not discussing migrant crime in this thread, I am specifically discussing the overall immigration numbers, which you repeatedly keep trying to avoid by making this all about crime stats, which it isn't.

Okay ignoring crime then, what's the issue with the Eurostat 2100 projections report?

I am referring to citizens who have finally had enough of this madness, not the government or authorities

What's citizens detaining illegal migrants temporarily until the authorities arrive going to achieve. You think it's going make a bit of difference from the number of people trying to immigrant.?

Because you don't

Mate you're Jon Snow, you know nothing.

Stav does, always has, and always will

That's a lie.

Because we know how many regular immigrants are coming into the UK

Oh yes, I agree with you here...... but I am talking about the illegal migrants / immigrants

and we know of those recorded illegal immigrations 81% of coming via small boats crossing the channel

Absolute bollocks, lol, there is no single report that will ever get these numbers right.... you are thumb sucking at best, or the report is, which as I said, pertains to my own reports as well, but as you already said, you don't accept anecdotal information.

"You ducked the question on whole White British thing"

I ducked nothing at all, ducking is what you specialise in, just like when you were recently shown the error of your ways regarding the whole Piers Morgan accusations that you were repeatedly making on this forum, calling him absolutely disgusting names and accusing him of ongoing right wing racist behaviour and islamaphobic rethoric.....and then when I presented at least 15 - 30 different positive Muslim articles / Posts / Comments that Piers Morgan had publicly posted to millions of people worldwide, defending and positively and staunchly promoting Muslims, to show you what a liar you really were, you never replied to say how wrong you actually were, or apologised..... now that my lad.... is the prime example of what ducking is.

What we don't have definitive figures on how irregular immigrants get into the UK each year undetected via small boats each year. But its believed to be quite low for a number reasons

"Believed"...... my point exactly....

"Even if you say a couple of thousand are getting through each year via boat crossing and remaining undocumented it doesn't move the needle when you look at total immigration into the UK."

Really, just a couple of thousand... ok

These are just some ways these immigrants are illegally getting into Europe:

1. Central Mediterranean (Libya to Italy/Malta): Many migrants cross from Libya (or Tunisia) to Italy or Malta in overcrowded, unsafe boats operated by smugglers
2. Eastern Mediterranean (Turkey to Greece/Cyprus): Migrants from Syria, Afghanistan, and other countries take boats to Greek islands like Lesbos or Chios
3. Western Mediterranean (Morocco/Algeria to Spain): Migrants cross the sea to Spain’s Canary Islands, Andalusia, or Ceuta/Melilla (Spanish enclaves in North Africa)

Now let's not forget the land borders

1. Turkey-Greece Border: Some cross the Evros River or use smuggling networks to enter Greece
2. Balkan Route: Migrants travel through Türkey, then to Bulgaria, Serbia, or North Macedonia, heading toward Hungary, Croatia, or Austria.
3. Belarus-EU Border (Hybrid Warfare): In 2021, Belarusian authorities facilitated Middle Eastern and African migrants to cross into Poland, Lithuania, and Latvia as a political tactic.
4. What about the ones that are trafficked in boats, trucks and trains crossing into Europe as well
5. Literally crossing on foot over the borders
6. Then you have those that are overstaying their Visas almost every day
7. We then have to look at those that are their on fake or stolen documents
8. You also get those applying for asylum upon arrival, know full well that deportation is a slow process, allowing them to sometimes stay for years

My point on this whole issue is not if the migration is reducing or increasing, my issue is that if it continues as it has been in the last 5 - 10 years, Europe is in trouble, and most posts and articles I read confirm this.... and if you want keep your head in the sand about this specific issue, and say that there is nothing at all wrong with what is happening and that there is no threat to Europe in general in the years to come, then that's your opinion, we just won't agree on it.

I've pointed out the biased nature of the sources of the research you presented, anti immigration right wing think tanks and political pundits, I've also pointed out flaws in their methodology

But this is your stock standard response to anything said on this topic, which you have maintained from the very beginning, which is also something Shark also brought up..... you cannot just label someone who has concerns about this, and raises it as an issue, as far right wing...it's a cop out.... there a lot of people with 100% genuine concerns.

What's citizens detaining illegal migrants temporarily until the authorities arrive going to achieve. You think it's going make a bit of difference from the number of people trying to immigrant.

In your mind, obvioulsy nothing, but the point is, is that the local population are also clearly fed up with this happening all the time, but someone like you would rather call them far right lunatics if they decided to act or speak out on it, and not even praise them for trying to do do the right thing, exactly as you just did right here......which is probably why so many people don't do anything, just like the government won't publish new facts and stats about the grooming gangs..... people are too scared of being labelled racists or homophobes by people like you, if they voice their fears or concerns...... labelling people will only increase the likelihood of regular citizens doing absolutely nothing or letting things slide, just like with the grooming gangs, but you just don't and won't grasp that.

Mate you're Jon Snow, you know nothing

Look in the mirror

That's a lie.

So far you always have, so it is absolutely spot on.....and I am not the one on this forum who has been berated by numerous posters before, for lies, so if the shoe fits.

Absolute bollocks, lol, there is no single report that will ever get these numbers right.... you are thumb sucking at best, or the report is, which as I said, pertains to my own reports as well, but as you already said, you don't accept anecdotal information.

What you're actually saying there is no report you will accept if it doesn't support what you already believe.

Yes we absolutely do know because it is recorded. When irregular immigrants are detected in the UK the manner of how they got into the UK is recorded, be it small boats, smuggled in via lorry containers or got in on flights. So saying absolute bollocks is just showing how you ignorant you are.

I ducked nothing at all, ducking is what you specialise in, just like when you were recently shown the error of your ways regarding the whole Piers Morgan accusations that you were repeatedly making on this forum, calling him absolutely disgusting names and accusing him of ongoing right wing racist behaviour and islamaphobic rethoric.....and then when I presented at least 15 - 30 different positive Muslim articles / Posts / Comments that Piers Morgan had publicly posted to millions of people worldwide, defending and positively and staunchly promoting Muslims, to show you what a liar you really were, you never replied to say how wrong you actually were, or apologised..... now that my lad.... is the prime example of what ducking is.

DA...I ducked nothing!!!..here let me prove it by ducking the question.

"Believed"...... my point exactly....

Okay I've stated the reasons why its very likely the numbers getting into the UK undetected via small boats is probably very low. By all means present your own reasons why you think its likely that much higher rates of immigrants are getting into the UK via small boats undetected.

Really, just a couple of thousand... ok

Yes really, acting incredulous isn't an argument. Present reasons if you think that's wrong.

My point on this whole issue is not if the migration is reducing or increasing, my issue is that if it continues as it has been in the last 5 - 10 years, Europe is in trouble, and most posts and articles I read confirm this.... and if you want keep your head in the sand about this specific issue, and say that there is nothing at all wrong with what is happening and that there is no threat to Europe in general in the years to come, then that's your opinion, we just won't agree on it.

Fine if you want to led down the garden path by the populists and grifters its your right to do so, obviously we are free to disagree.

In your mind, obvioulsy nothing, but the point is, is that the local population are also clearly fed up with this happening all the time, but someone like you would rather call them far right lunatics if they decided to act or speak out on it, and not even praise them for trying to do do the right thing, exactly as you just did right here......which is probably why so many people don't do anything, just like the government won't publish new facts and stats about the grooming gangs..... people are too scared of being labelled racists or homophobes by people like you, if they voice their fears or concerns...... labelling people will only increase the likelihood of regular citizens doing absolutely nothing or letting things slide, just like with the grooming gangs, but you just don't and won't grasp that.

Again with the smear, I never called them far right lunatics. If I saw an immigrant boat rock up on shore I wouldn't try to directly intervene unless maybe they were threating someone with violence but I would notify the authorities as would most people. So I've no idea where your getting most people wouldn't do anything from.

What states and facts are the government not publishing? You are aware there is going to be another report into grooming gangs in the UK?

people are too scared of being labelled racists or homophobes by people like you, if they voice their fears or concerns...... labelling people will only increase the likelihood of regular citizens doing absolutely nothing or letting things slide, just like with the grooming gangs, but you just don't and won't grasp that.

It absolutely is possible that in some cases preparators of crimes who happened to be minorities got away lightly or totally because of concerns as being perceived as racist (also why are you bringing up homophobia again its nothing really to do with this topic) but that seems more an exception of the norm the problem is the actual far right racists either exaggerate or outright lie about this to create a perception that it occurs on a massive nationwide scale when all the most credible evidence indicates minority groups are more likely to be imprisoned than native groups. And your doing the very same thing here that accuse others of labelling people which will only increase hatred and violence towards people of minorities.

So far you always have, so it is absolutely spot on.....and I am not the one on this forum who has been berated by numerous posters before, for lies, so if the shoe fits.

Berated...LOL.

It seems to me this is a classic argument of different visions. Those who believe in their society and are willing to accept new blood, but only if at a minimum it doesn’t put that vision at risk. And those who believe humanity is homogenous and we would create a more vibrant society by removing most barriers.

All the other stuff eg refugees status, tends to be unevenly applied.

When irregular immigrants are detected in the UK the manner of how they got into the UK is recorded, be it small boats, smuggled in via lorry containers or got in on flights. So saying absolute bollocks is just showing how you ignorant you are

LMAO, I am very well aware of this, but thank you very much for proving precisely what my point was right from the beginning..... because it's all those ones who don't get detected or caught, that are not recorded and come in under the radar that I have always been referring to... but you go ahead and keep believing that it's all above board in these reports.

DA...I ducked nothing!!!..here let me prove it by ducking the question

From the man who says that he is not a liar..... lol ...you are hilarious

It was certainly the biggest duck I have seen on this forum.....well.... only just ahead of Dense's "It was a Windup"

You were presented with a whole lot of different evidence, after your ongoing blatant lies about a high profile public figure, calling him disgusting names and accusing him of all sorts of far right wing behaviour and saying he was deliberately creating public fear and distrust against Muslims ....

That was until the proof was handed to you on a platter

Then.... instead of doing the honourable or decent thing, and saying or admitting that you maybe got it wrong....you decided to not post one single response after that, pertaining to my post with the evidence, after I posted all that evidence..

LMAO..... now that is an epic duck.

Fine if you want to led down the garden path by the populists and grifters its your right to do so, obviously we are free to disagree

And we will

What states and facts are the government not publishing? You are aware there is going to be another report into grooming gangs in the UK?

Yes I am, hence why I brought that point up again, and I will be extremely happy to be proven wrong if the report is transparent with both the total numbers and ethnicity of who was actually involved, and exactly why it was covered up to begin with, because it definitely was covered up, as so many people have already testified or provided evidence to......... and I will gladly post on here that I was incorrect if I end up being wrong ... however, given how you have always believed that the original report was always correct and above board, and given your inability to not admit when you get something wrong, I certainly don't expect you to do the same thing if this new report goes against everything you previously believed and staunchly supported on here and calling people right wing supporters for wanting to believe it actually did happen,.

And your doing the very same thing here that accuse others of labelling people which will only increase hatred and violence towards people of minorities

If any of these minorities that you refer to are 100% proven to be the absolute worst offenders on a large scale, for any specific crimes like rape and murder for example, then shielding their numbers from the public does nothing to protect the citizens of that town, county or country, and I would never consider it racist to publish that information..... but you would..... you would support completely suppressing that kind of information due to the fear that it would incense the locals and possibly create more problems for you....of that I have no doubt, you would put the safety of the immigrants before your own citizens...when to me, the protection of the citizens is paramount, and should take priority at all times.

Berated...LOL

I was trying to be polite, it is you we are talking about

Another headline article that came out today about Migrants

Yep, no problem at all here...... what a complete and utter joke....

And these are the ones that actually managed to get caught.......

This governemnt needs to get a backbone and implement a policy that actually works

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14978773/small-boat-migrants-detained-removal-France-new-one-one-scheme.html

Immigration is a big issue in a liberal world but as Liberals can not speak of themselves, they want to depict themselves in ways other than they are, they are forced to beat around the bush. They can not discuss and they always have side tracked. This thread is packed with non sense, delusion and more.

So

According to an article that came out today

Small boat numbers of migrants coming into Britain alone are up 47% from the same time last year, and 67% up from 2023.

Since 2018, of the 178 167 migrants that were actually caught trying to enter Brtain, only about 4% of them have been removed since then.

According to Dr Madeleine Sumption, who is the director of Oxford University's Migration Observatory two thirds of the men arriving in Britain are aged between 18 and 39.

At the moment, there is one migrant arriving every 11 minutes.... and those are only the ones that they know about.

Sure ......no problem here

How utterly blind can you really be

Tell me what do you think the UK should do about it?

I really don't see the point in doing that with someone who doesn't even believe or acknowledge that this is a very serious problem to begin with.

By all means, you start off that conversation about what the UK should do and I'll gladly jump in

LOL.

See what I mean...you just proved my point

You have become too predictable

We got a dodgeball champion here...let me guess but but bur Piers Morgan!

On Monday alone, there were 474 Channel arrivals that were caught ... with over 400 also on Sunday

That is just what was caught through the Channel crossings....one can only imagine what was missed.

Now they are using Dinghy's that can carry over 100 people at a time, and people like Stav are gullible enough to believe that this is not an existential threat ... it's all under control...LMAO

One can only laugh at the sheer amount of stupidity and naiveity involved in this kind of "Critical" thinking.

We got a dodgeball champion here...let me guess but but bur Piers Morgan!

Man, did that show you up for the blatant liar that you are.......

If that is what you need to resort to, to try and win some online random debate, it says so much more about you and your character

No wonder you can't seem to get over it, lol

Not sure how Britain can maintain this, even for another 5 - 10 years

Some scary facts in this story

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15020521/Record-111-000-asylum-claims-year-Labour-government-Home-Office-reveals.html

Then you get this absolutely crazy story

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15024237/Nigerian-father-denied-asylum-three-times-allowed-stay-Britain-belatedly-claiming-hes-gay.html

You seriously cannot make this shit up