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FORUM / MIKES GRIPES /  So the NATO betrayal claim

So the NATO betrayal claim

Started by Mozart5 REPLIES324 VIEWS· 26 Jul 2023, 19:35
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 Jul 2023, 19:35
#1
26 Jul 2023, 19:35#1

It’s remarkable that something as important as NATO not expanding is not recorded in writing. But let’s accept the fact that verbal assurances given more than 30 years ago, when the countries were still part of the Soviet Union still has some weight.


But is it enough weight to attack and destroy a neighboring country? Especially as it is not a binding undertaking. Clearly not, especially given NATO’s defensive mission.


This is a classic case of justifying something where the cure is a 100 times more threatening than the disease. Why should the Ukraine not have the right to be part of NATO if they so choose….just as Cuba has existed a few 100 miles from the US as part of the Soviet sphere.


The real underlying problem here is Russia remains a rogue state with geopolitical ambitions way beyond the scope of its mediocre economy. Russia should strengthen ties with Europe…there is no risk there.


But this NATO argument is a false red herring….here is a good summary of the issue:


…………


The origin of the betrayal claim

To understand Russia’s claims of betrayal, it is necessary to review the reassurances then US secretary of state James A. Baker made to former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev during a meeting on February 9, 1990. In a discussion on the status of a reunited Germany, the two men agreed that NATO would not extend past the territory of East Germany, a promise repeated by NATO’s secretary general in a speech on May 17 that same year in Brussels.

Russia and the West finally struck an agreement in September that would allow NATO to station its troops beyond the Iron Curtain. However, the deal only concerned a reunified Germany, with further eastward expansion being inconceivable at the time.

"The Soviet Union still existed and the countries of Eastern Europe were still part of the Soviet structures – like the Warsaw Pact – which was not officially dissolved until July 1991,"  said Amélie Zima, doctor of political science at the Thucydide Centre (Panthéon-Assas) in Paris. "We cannot speak of betrayal, because a chain of events that would rearrange the security configuration in Europe was about to take place."    

In short, at a time when Westerners were offering the "guarantees" spoken of by Vladimir Putin, no one could have predicted the collapse of the USSR and the historic upheavals that followed.

>> The fall of the Soviet Union, 30 years on

"In addition, these promises were made orally and were never recorded in a treaty,” recalled Olivier Kempf, associate researcher at the Foundation for Strategic Research. "The turning point of NATO enlargement came much later, in 1995, at the request of the Eastern European countries." 

That year, NATO published a study on its enlargement before starting membership talks two years later with Hungary, Poland and the Czech Republic, all of which would become members in 1999. The addition of these new members has long sparked debate within NATO, thus undermining the Russian myth of a betrayal orchestrated by the West. "Even within the American administration, some thought that NATO should not expand because it would make it less effective, dilute its skills and become a financial burden," explained Zima.

Ukraine’s strategic importance

For many years, the question of NATO enlargement has fuelled tensions between the United States and its allies, on the one side, and Russia on the other. In August 2008, Georgia's NATO and EU ambitions helped prompt Moscow to back pro-Russian separatists in Georgia’s self-proclaimed autonomous republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.  

Russia also views the alliance's anti-missile shield – established in 2016 in NATO member Romania – with great suspicion. A similar NATO base exists in Poland.

Faced with these Russian concerns, Western governments consistently underscore the defensive nature of the NATO alliance.  

"The Russians find it difficult to accept NATO enlargement, but they forget that they signed a document called the NATO-Russia Founding Act in 1997, through which they become partners and committed to guaranteeing peace and security in the Euro-Atlantic area as well as the territorial integrity of all member states," Zima noted.

Today, Moscow is reviving its rhetoric in the context of the Ukraine crisis by turning Kiev's possible future NATO membership into a new red line not to be crossed.

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Ukraine currently has "partner country" status with NATO. In reality, Kiev still has a long way to go before it can qualify for full membership.

"One of the main rules of the Alliance is that member countries must have solved all of their border issues so as not to integrate a new crisis factor into the Organisation. With the continuing conflict [with Russia over] Crimea, it is unlikely Ukraine would be able to join NATO," said Kempf.’

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 Jul 2023, 19:40
#2
26 Jul 2023, 19:40#2

I highlight this excerpt so the Russia bots can understand the scop e of Russia’s betrayal:

‘ The Russians find it difficult to accept NATO enlargement, but they forget that they signed a document called the NATO-Russia Founding Act in 1997, through which they become partners and committed to guaranteeing peace and security in the Euro-Atlantic area as well as the territorial integrity of all member states," Zima noted.’

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
26 Jul 2023, 20:16
#3
26 Jul 2023, 20:16#3

IMO it wasn't a good enough reason to invade Ukraine,  but it wasn't nothing either...

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
26 Jul 2023, 20:25
#4
26 Jul 2023, 20:25#4

So poor Mozzzquito now realizes that  NATO broke their undertakings to Russia as everyone informed person knows. They kept expanding eastwards and refused to listen to Putins please for this to stop.

They placed Missiles and weapons in Ukraine and built up the Ukrainian mil itary. They built bio labs doing gin of function experiments on Russia's border. They waged a genocidal war on the Russian population in Ukraine and treated them as third class citizens. 

In 1963 the Cuban Missile Crises arose and President Kennedy rightly threatened war. There were NEGOTIATIONS and It was agreed that Russia would remove their missiles from Cuba but that the US would remove their missiles in Eastern Europe that threatened Russia - which actually was all that Russia wanted.

NOW OF COURSE THE US DOESNT WANT ANY NEGOTIATIONS. They are following the Soros devised plan whereby Russia would be harmed by a proxy war where US arms would be used by another country so that US soldiers would not return in body bags. something the US public would never tolerate.

So the US objected in the strongest terms to the Russian actions in Cuba deeming it an existential threat. But when the US did far worse in the Ukraine its Putin's fault there was a war!!!!

The facts are clear and it was the US led NATO that instigated this war. The illegitimate Biden regime really should be tried for war crimes. what a total and utter disgrace.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 Jul 2023, 20:45
#5
26 Jul 2023, 20:45#5
On the contrary it was Russia’s insistence that it could invade its neighbor and then still expect that neighbor not  to take steps to protect itself that led to this war. Russia violated the NATO-Russia Founding Act. And that was in writing.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 Jul 2023, 20:52
#6
26 Jul 2023, 20:52#6

Here are the principles enshrined in the act, ask yourself if Russia has complied:

To achieve the aims of this Act, NATO and Russia will base their relations on a shared commitment to the following principles:

  • development, on the basis of transparency, of a strong, stable, enduring and equal partnership and of cooperation to strengthen security and stability in the Euro-Atlantic area;
  • acknowledgement of the vital role that democracy, political pluralism, the rule of law, and respect for human rights and civil liberties and the development of free market economies play in the development of common prosperity and comprehensive security;
  • refraining from the threat or use of force against each other as well as against any other state, its sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence in any manner inconsistent with the United Nations Charter and with the Declaration of Principles Guiding Relations Between Participating States contained in the Helsinki Final Act;
  • respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security, the inviolability of borders and peoples' right of self-determination as enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act and other OSCE documents;
  • mutual transparency in creating and implementing defence policy and military doctrines;
  • prevention of conflicts and settlement of disputes by peaceful means in accordance with UN and OSCE principles;
  • support, on a case-by-case basis, of peacekeeping operations carried out under the authority of the UN Security Council or the responsibility of the OSCE. 
— END OF THREAD —

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