The blow up…a sensible view

The WSJ editorial:

‘But then the meeting, in front of the world, descended into recriminations. The nose dive began with an odd interjection from Vice President JD Vance, who appeared to be defending Mr. Trump’s diplomacy, which Mr. Zelensky hadn’t challenged. Mr. Zelensky rehearsed the many peace agreements Mr. Putin has shredded and essentially asked Mr. Vance what would be different this time.

Mr. Vance unloaded on Mr. Zelensky—that he was “disrespectful,” low on manpower, and gives visitors to Ukraine a “propaganda” tour. President Trump appeared piqued by Mr. Zelensky’s suggestion that the outcome in Ukraine would matter to the U.S. “Your country is in big trouble. You’re not winning,” Mr. Trump said at one point.

Why did the Vice President try to provoke a public fight? Mr. Vance has been taking to his X.com account in what appears to be an effort to soften up the political ground for a Ukraine surrender, most recently writing off Mr. Putin’s brutal invasion as a mere ethnic rivalry. Mr. Vance dressed down Mr. Zelensky as if he were a child late for dinner. He claimed the Ukrainian hadn’t been grateful enough for U.S. aid, though he has thanked America countless times for its support. This was not the behavior of a wannabe statesman.

Mr. Zelensky would have been wiser to defuse the tension by thanking the U.S. again, and deferring to Mr. Trump. There’s little benefit in trying to correct the historical record in front of Mr. Trump when you’re also seeking his help.

But as with the war, Mr. Zelensky didn’t start this Oval Office exchange. Was he supposed to tolerate an extended public denigration of the Ukrainian people, who have been fighting a war for survival for three years?

It is bewildering to see Mr. Trump’s allies defending this debacle as some show of American strength. The U.S. interest in Ukraine is shutting down Mr. Putin’s imperial project of reassembling a lost Soviet empire without U.S. soldiers ever having to fire a shot. That core interest hasn’t changed, but berating Ukraine in front of the entire world will make it harder to achieve.

Turning Ukraine over to Mr. Putin would be catastrophic for that country and Europe, but it would be a political calamity for Mr. Trump too. The U.S. President can’t simply walk away from that conflict, much as he would like to. Ukraine has enough weapons support to last until sometime this summer. But as the war stands, Mr. Putin sees little reason to make any concessions as his forces gain ground inch by bloody inch in Ukraine’s east.

Friday’s spectacle won’t make him any more willing to stop his onslaught as he sees the U.S. President and his eager deputy unload on Ukraine’s leader. Some Trumpologists have been suggesting Mr. Trump will put pressure on Mr. Putin in due time. But so far Mr. Putin hasn’t made a single concession on territory, or on Ukraine’s ability to defend itself in the future after a peace deal is signed.

President Trump no doubt resents having to deal with a war he thinks he might have prevented had he won in 2020. But Presidents have to deal with the world they inherit. Peace in Ukraine is salvageable, but he and Mr. Zelensky will have to work together on an agreement that Ukrainians can live with.

Mr. Trump does not want to be the President who abandoned Ukraine to Vladimir Putin with all the bloodshed and damage to U.S. interests that would result. Mr. Vance won’t like to run for President in such a world either.’

I watched this thing unfold live……it was astonishing, compelling, concerning. Vance started the tit for tat and Zelensky really lost it by suggesting the US was safe behind its Oceans. That’s when Trump lost it.

It leaves one wondering what exactly the Trumpean world is supposed to look like. But while bringing Russia back into the fold is an inherently good idea….China is the real adversary….that can’t whitewash the deeds of Putin. Too many people have died.

As for European petulance, that’s not going to end well….they don’t have the infrastructure, the resolve and their economies are all struggling in the Technology era. Hell Stanford University models funded minimally are very credible AI performers…..how does Europe come up with nothing.

The European alliance may be dimming, but it doesn’t matter. In what sense is Europe an ally….their stance is pretty much universally anti American and they don’t fulfill their obligations…they target US companies in a way no European companies are targeted in the USA.

But where do we go from here, the meeting may end up being a nothing burger but it exposed a real rift in views. Most disturbing was the sense of bullying that emerged in and after the meeting….you can’t expect a nation fighting for survival to be polished and balanced.

Still Zelensky looked out of his depth and the language thing didn’t help. Zelensky should study Churchill’s playing of Roosevelt…respect and friendship works better than truculence

The pressure to fix the image seared into everybody’s brain is significant and it will probably happen. But it leaves one wondering, what are the principles governing this brave new world.

Mozart

I agree that bith Trump and Vance should have said what they did - bu I thnk Zlesnkyy was wrong, The houa has passed a much redduced the Budget and funding of Ukine - also all other funding on aid projects are no in that budget. So funding is an issue and they are not going to spend money Zelenskyy wants

I think that the USA has already got troops in Poland and Germany and that in itself is a deterrent - but to demand that the USA should incure firther expenditure on troops in Ukraine is BS . Let German y and the UK send in troops at ther cost - not the cost of the US Taxpayers.

The Ukraine living off the funds provided by the USA is over and of the UK and Germany replaces it it is fine - but talking about it does not mean it is going to ork out amd action would have to flow from he talking and I do not think the replacement fuunding from those two countries are going to be provided.

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"I watched this thing unfold live……it was astonishing, compelling, concerning. Vance started the tit for tat and Zelensky really lost it by suggesting the US was safe behind its Oceans. That’s when Trump lost it."

To me it looked like Vance deliberately prevoked the dwarf..his comments about diplomacy was fair, but when VZ lost his sh!t, he should have stayed calm, but he chose to flame VZ...and the idiot took the bait...he's too stupid to run a country...man was it awkward when he showed Trump the pictures...it wasn't the place....

The US can’t issue guarantees…..,that’s not even in Ukraine’s interest because the US taxpayer won’t persevere with the commitment needed. It’s tantamount to putting the Ukraine into NATO, which does bring a direct Russian/USA conflict into play.

I’m surprised his European friends didn’t coach him out of that demand…but perhaps that’s his version of a negotiating tactic.

No...he's been humored to the extent of becoming a spoiled brat...

You lot are in Maga's-La La land

That 'dwarf' is twice the man compared to your autocratic dipstick batshit fwit of a wannabe president ... I hesitate to even call him a Republican .

He's an American disaster. A tragedy on legs.

What Zelensky want is not realistic and he seems unable to compromise...this won't end well for him...regardless of his courage.

Th e USA dies hav e a disaterous ssituation that involve massive maladminisration and corruption that ah been ongoing since Obama's tie and went on throug the Trump Presidency because it waas virtually impossible to continue - which if cntinued would czause an world wide econiomic disaster for the whole world.

At this stgte the USA is paying more per year on interest and repayment of ddebts han they pt into the Defense budget and if the Bidens hit s continued the situation is that in every 100 days anothinmg $1 trillion wod be added to the debt. Under Biden every time Zlenskyy wants money = Biden said "yes" - but Zelenskyy rule over he USA as ended and to sent US troops to Ukraine will never happen and his moneylaundering scheme will not continue,

In fact one wonder what hold hold Zelenskyy had over Biden that turned Biden in adhering to every reqyuest Zelendkyy made for further funding Is hat why Biden "pardoned his son and a string of other crooks for crime commited by them from 1 January 2014 to 1 December 2024. We all know that Biden was not in charge in the USA - so why the admission of guilt attached to the Biden crime family - especially in Ukraine for years.

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That 'dwarf' is twice the man compared to your autocratic dipstick batshit fwit of a wannabe president ... I hesitate to even call him a Republican .

He's an American disaster

You can fill a garbage can with Trailer Trash and tie a ribbon around it.....it's still Trailer Trash.

Trailer Trash? Really...looking down at people is always wrong...what do you know about trailer trash anyway?

Denny

You obviously do not know that the USA Biden disaster lasting 4 years has driven the Federal Debt by $10 illion dollars. The main problm is that te spening spree as caused by maladministration and to a large extent the politoco's and bureaucrats were in on bribery and coruption. Be it as it may may if he revious spending spree continue the folloeing trend:-

Every 100 days - $1 Trillion dollarss

Every day - $10 ]Billion

Every hour - $417 Million

Every Minute - S6.95 million a minute

Trump undertook to stop the rot that was inside the Fedreral Govenment Service and the finding was that circa $3 Trillion was spent on fruitless,and wasteful expenditure - or was looted by poublic servants and their political partners,

While every American citizen owe R103 000 in debt to the lenders and while debt repayments and interest has a bigger budget than the US Defense Department and was weakening economically eery aspect of life of working class people near to a starvation situation where food banks must provide meals for 62 million people.

So the USA is on their knees ecnomically and cannot keep on funding an endless war in Ukraine and the virtually demand that the USA prvide more funding is at its end. For his demand that his terms is all that count is BS. The US owes Ukraine nothing and nothing will be paid in future, But the USA wil send workers to Ukraine to mine there minerals with part of the income of the mining companies involved will go to reconmstruction of inftrastrucure in Ukraine and war damage in Ukraine. If it is any furher attacks after signing a peace deal the Russians know the USA will send in troops and the much desired WW3 you so adently support will really start,

So Zelenssky demands are really under the circumstanes outrageous and if he wants conitnued US assistance then he will have to stop demands and go back to the USA to plead for help which the USA will give on he basis of the present situation in the USA.

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Regardless of whether Zelensky was morally right, he did his hard pressed people no favors by adopting such a petulant attitude in that meeting….his body language wasn’t good. And he exited that meeting with less American support, even amongst prior strong supporters like Lindsey Graham.

Courage is easy when you're not on the front lines dodging the bullets. Ask Haig.

Trump's Maga supplicants to the rescue ......... "petulant poor body language spoilt brat dwarf "

Shame

erty

They can threat anyone - bur let Europe pay for a war they want to continue and that is the long and the short of the matter,

The USA are in bad cndition because of maladministration and corrption - but the economies of Europe is even worse off with Gemany in a recession wih their GDP dropping for the third year in succession and the UK and France even worse of fthan that. So lets Europe pay for their own BS in fiire and see how their economies will go in further decline that it already is in, .

.

Trump's Maga supplicants to the rescue ......... "petulant poor body language spoilt brat dwarf "

Shame

There's nothing new in a chorus going up from the Trump cult after their love hero delivers an execution......we've seen it play out many, many times. Pompeo for an example was a Trump pet until he ran for election, like several before him he raced up Trump's shit list.

But here's the thing.......Harris the pretender and every POTUS would never fawn over a dictator, a cold blooded murderer and a bully while on the contrary treating an ally unashamedly with belligerence in view of a worldwide media.

If I was Taiwan I'd be extremely worried and scared, by now China is laughing at him, his bark is but a yelp, China will push their agenda and Trump will make up some BS excuse not to come to their rescue.

Cut a deal he'll yelp you don't have any cards.

If I was Taiwan I'd use the money for their next F16 to invest instead in rolls of toilet paper......for the sake of a small bit satisfaction have em print a photo of Trump and Vance on it.

BB keep going, don't for one split second be deterred or have a centimeter of doubt of your inner convictions.....you're a mountain of a man.

Denny

There is no isue ehre and whether yu like it or not - Zelensky cnnot make demands from the U SA fo anythin g and he inisted that the U SA must send troops to Ukraine to cover his arse and svae him from being ousted as President and Trump refused to do o.

There are already 70 000 US troops mainly in Germany and that add to costs of the US Army. While Germany has only 66 000 sldiers in their army.

After warlike speeches for public consumption in their meeting in London - the EU leaders apparently warned Zelenskyy to rey and mend fences with Trump - sinc ethey do nt ahve he resouirces to help Ukraine in their further war agaisnt Russia and he is boud to go back to Wshington to beg on his knee to plead for forgiverness for his rude behaviour during the meeting.on Friday.

He si now suddenly begging sign the mineral deal he refused to sign on Friday and was kicked out of he WH after his conduct. after him being told that only two countries in Europe has substantial armies that can play a role in Ukraine nd those re Turkey and Italy and they want peace and not war in Europe..

There si enugh other problem area caused especially with China and in the Mid-East to continue with a war in Europe going on. and Australia and New Zealand beig another issue with the Chinese navcy did real fire exercizes in the sea between Australia and New Zealand and the nuclear power subs Biden promised the "chap down Under" as Bien called the Aussie Prime Minister appaently not deliverd to he Aussies yet. In teh USA navy budget wa included the construction of nuclear powered and armed subs every year as wel as servciing such subs, In the past 4 years under Biden only two such subs were completed - with 20 o the 60 such sbs being withdrawn due to servincing needs and nothing was done about either. Nobody know hat happene to the funds suplied for those wo purposes - it jsut happene in a sea of coruption and ftheft of funs for her purposes,

Europe.s navies commbined is not as strong as one aircarft carrier built by Turkey for on use and the Geek and Ilian nvies are combined - so who will defend Austalia and New Z ealnd if C hina decide t attack the two countries. The nly country capabale to do tht is the USA - but only if the fuck-ups of Biden can be corrected. .

"If I was Taiwan I'd use the money for their next F16 to invest instead in rolls of toilet paper......for the sake of a small bit satisfaction have em print a photo of Trump and Vance on it."

Just for your info - Taiwan paid USA $17 billion for arms delievery and Biden refused to give permission of sending of the ams to Taiwan and it was not delivered while he was President. Apparently Biden took his orders from President Zi in that regard, Similar wth his executin Zelenskyy's isntruction - terribel t ahev a corrupt cvriminal as Presiden of any country.

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Trump and JD could have definitely handled this whole meeting a lot better than they did, and I also think that Zelensky's behaviour is catching up with him, but I do also get Zelensky's frustration regarding what diplomacy the US keep referring to.... and what has not yet been discussed and tried.

Zelensky's sometimes arrogant behaviour, which he got away with to some degree with Biden, would never have gone down well with Trump .... and he should have known this from the get go..... and Zelensky himself should have read the room which he clearly didn't, and then making that utterly distastefull comment about the US having a nice ocean, but that the US will feel it in the future is just downright stupidity when you are wanting continued aid from that very same country.

Apparently there were eye rolls and shrugs from Zelensky throughout the meeting which I didn't watch enough of to see, but clearly his continued untoward behaviour pissed off JD and Trump.

I actually agree with Trump regarding the fact that this happened in front of the media, because it gives some honest insight into exactly what gets discussed and how it gets done behind closed doors, and it gave the average man in the street a more clear look at who and what type of man Zelensky really is.

This meeting said a lot more about Zelensky to me than about Trumop and JD, but again, the whole thing could and should have gone down so much more differently.

A pparently before any meeting between Trump there are pleasantries discussion with the media when media answers are given in geeral what is going to be discussed at the emeting followed by a lunch. - after that an official discussin followed.

After lunch there is then an officil annucement to the media on the issue f discuions that took plac.

That was the process followed with Macron and Starmer and there were no complications. However, that is not what ahppened in the case of Z Zelenskyy. He was rude and inerrupted Trump constantly and carried n as if he wason a show in frnt f the emdaia and that is what really caused the breakdiown. Hope e elarned a lessn in better e haviour next time he comes crawli ngforaid to Tr ump.

I probably shouldn't call him a dwarf all the time...no fault of his that he is shorter than most and there's nothing wrong with below average length...it's just the small man syndrome that comes with it that irks me...Putin Goblin has the same problem...Napoleon too...way too hardegat to knows what's good for them and the rest of the world...calling Vance a "bitch" on live TV isn't the way to come begging for aid...the arrogance of the man boggles the mind...

Yeah, and more news has come out of Ukraine that Zelensky has apparently banned another opposition political party that was questioning his legitimacy as president and also used the Ukraine DOJ to seize their assests, never mind already banning his political opponents and even tv channels whilst even taking over complete control of the tv networks.

If this is true, it does not portray him in a good light at all

He didn't come across well in that interview...scary to think he wants nukes ...

DA

The myth that Ulrine sia Democracy is crazy BS, Let me explain please;

1. Ukrane in 2014 discarded the Ukrane Constitution.
2. Ukraine banned people speakin g Rusian in publiv aest ed abd fined,
3. They banned the teaching of Russian in schools
4. The ahve a policy of ehtnic cl;ensin g if ssians do not drop their culture and language
5. In 2021 Zelensky had all the Rusian-ispaking Members of the Ukraine Parliaent arressted and only 3 pf them was released = the rest nobody knows what happened to them.
6. TYh ey banned the Ukraine Orthodiox Church with whom 80% of Ukraineians are asspcoated,
7. No freedom of Speech
8. No media freedm and news censored.

Wheras ccirca 30% of the Ukraine population used Russian as theirhome language and ethnic cleansing is the policy of the Zelsnkyy Government Ukraine used to be a democracy - it is at present a cude dicatorsh ip witjh no repect for human righ ts and witha murderous ttrrorist and mecenary army big ade to kill and murder potentail opponent ruthlessly.

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I don't like the fact that this war has already cost so many unnecesary lives Mike.... on BOTH sides.

These young men have been sent to the slaughter and it disgusts me ....and as Pakie said earlier, courage is easy when you are not on the front line dodging bullets

I have watched so many graphic real news video stories from both sides, and it is heartbreaking in so many ways... especially the one video where the Russian and Ukranian solder were involved in a close up knife fight, and the mortally wounded soldier commended his opponent for fighting well and calling him the greatest fighter in the world.....and then asking if he could please just die in peace, and I think he told his mom that he loved her.

That was the reality of war......

Here is one story which has a blurred video, but I watched the unedited one and it was extremely sad and hit home a lot harder

It has video footage from the overhead drone and audio from each one's helmet

On social media Zelensky is now being called the "bravest man in the world". Yes, he is in such mortal danger all the time, flying around the world visiting world leaders, posing for photos, dining in the halls of luxury.

And then of course you have the soldiers facing the shit you see in this video above. But fuck 'em, they can't beat the little one-outfit comedian for bravery.

People are rather silly.

If Trump had given Zelensky what he wants….a security guarantee…..we would be in crisis this morning. Europe knows this and they will never give him a security guarantee. The noises they are making is disgusting hypocrisy.

Trump handled the meeting like a bully….but his position is right. Zelensky can be supported with arms, but not with men, Zelensky is running out of able and willing men….he needs to get the best peace he can now.

And hey Blob, enough with the insults.

Insults? Be specific ........ aimed at you personally ?

I’d rather not get into a pissing match….let’s just keep it a debate.

I live to give.

ps. I hope you're not talking about the Batshit 1 .......................... with him I've only just begun.

sdfgh

Browder again - why do you keep on quoting criminals on site?

I am thinkin g more highly of Vance evey time he said things. The German pliticians hate him for exposing their battle against free speech and hei involvment in elections in Roania and also in Germany itself.

He did not take shit from Zelenskyy when he breach proocol and start demanding things from Trump - if he wanted to raise iissues to be discussed it weas not the place the raise it before the press. If anybody raise issues like that in Kiev he would be dead by now.

The fact is that Zelenskyy ordered Biden around and he did exactly what Zelenskyy demanded from him - Trump is not a crook like Biden that could be controlled by him and he is nor running around and ready t sign the Rare Mineral Treaty and start behaving like an adult and nto a spoiled brat.

"I’d rather not get into a pissing match….let’s just keep it a debate."

Actually I'd like to see you man up for once and answer the question, Moffie.

What was it blob said on this thread that you considered an insult?

Be specific now.

Time Stamp channeling Foot Stamp again….get lost Wallie. And speaking about manning up…enough with the homophobic terms.

What was the insult, you conceited, overbearing, condescending, pompous braggart?

LMAO!

Successful condescending braggart….pity you weren’t..

What was the insult, you stuck-up, patronising, vain, self-important, boastful old fool?

When you said "enough with the insults". what were you referring to?

The deep dive . . .