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FORUM / MIKES GRIPES /  The Left Finally wants Legal Immigration only

The Left Finally wants Legal Immigration only

Started by sharkbok65 REPLIES1,377 VIEWS· 07 Jan 2024, 00:25
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SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
07 Jan 2024, 00:25
#1
07 Jan 2024, 00:25#1

Their are internatiaonol laws such as the refugee act where countries are obliged to accept people who are in political danger. It was agreed in the 1950's and 60's, when the refugee situation was much less than now.

So while the right wing campaigns on closing borders (e.g. Italy and the Dutch Trump), the fact remains that it is currently illegal. So is it really something they can do if they are part of the EU?

The UK, for example has a right wing government, and refugee immigration is higher than ever- despite their promises.

The left can see that far-right candidates will get in, so it is time to renegade on refugee commitments. The standard right wing are more interested in cashing in, but the far right like Trump etc are dangerous to Democracy. 

Hitler got into power on left wing ideals, but if it is to extreme either left or right - it will allow non-standard selections into power. 

The left also has to appreciate they have to act on the Democratic will of the people, not just liberal values and ideals.

This issue has caused problems for the EU, as it seems that the liberal values are being applied to refugees - but not indigenous people, 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Jan 2024, 02:57
#2
07 Jan 2024, 02:57#2
I cannot make out what youa re saying  and trying  to prove.   You have no idea about what the political scenario is at all.     You mix up things terribly because you do not unestand the polictica l scenaio is that has developed in the world over the last 150 years when democracy became accepte as the ideal fcorm of Government.   
First of all what is the meaning of leftist and rightest  political breakdowns.  The ideas as to leftists and rightested political idea is in politics.   This concept took off in the world af ter World War 2 - and is really a smoke screen.    The enemies of demcoracy has always been the same. - the librals always  advrtise as being the god guys and the friends of demcocracy the bad guiys and the ideals of Socialism is the key issue.   Both Facsism and Communism is the same thing.   The Socialist ideals are to gain power and retain it at all costs.
In practice the ideals of anti-democracy are  all the same.  There were no differnce betwen what Communist and  Facsist ideals are .    it is a total mix-up.    After World War 2 the political scenario became evident.   Hitler was classified as an extreme rightest - which  he was not  and the immdiate reaction was that he is to be sued as a model as to what dictatorial regime situation is.   There were no difference betwen what the policies of right and left is - both strive to gain power and retain it at all costs. 
Hitler was regarded as evil - but what is it that cause him - a real madman to gain power and retain it.    Was Hitler any different from Stalin - whose ideas always were s the same.   Immediately after WW2 the Communist regime in Russia was for a short became the good guys and the oppostiion to the good guys and the bad guys are any opponents to what is good and bad in he world spread by he media..
What in realiy happened was somewhat dfferent and for that one has to go back to what happened in he real world and how did Hitler gain power and retain it.   After WW1 Gemany became a disastrous mess  and the war was finished in favor of the good guys.    By 1930 te situation was not really different from what it is today.   In German citiies and in some states the Commuists took control and they started acting on instructions from Moscow in a war agaist "capitalism"/     Hitler was the leader of a socialist party - but in a deadly battle against the Communists/.   So  in Germany the majority of the people was in favor of a return to a demcoratic monarchy on which basis Hindenberg was elected as President.   The situation in Germany was that the capitalists and rotylists w faced by a threat and that threat was embodied in Communist Rusia.   So Hindenberg thought ti wise to go the other way.   The idea was estabhed where the rich capatalists  and royalists went to Hitler as a way to defend themselves. against a Communist threat.   In the case of many of Hitlers key supporters the situation remains the same until Grmany lost the war. in 1945.  
Now go forward to 2024.    In China there is no communism in place. - after the death of Mao Zedung  in 1976  The Chinese gradually accepted the  Facsist ieals - namly the control fo China through an alliance betwen the socialists and the capitalist elements in society  and that si what we have in  China at present.  That move ws accellerated by the ultra-wealthy in the USA and trhe EU who moved their factories to China with a very cheap labor system in place. the result was the rich got richer and the poor and working class poorer,   The present regime in China is the ideal facsist system - an alliance between the ultra-rich and a so-called socialist party.
Now lets go to the USA at present.    The ultra-rich dcided to support  a system they can control totally through weak and corupt politicians.   The ultra-rich got control of the mass media and by that means got control of the Democratic Party - especially weak and essetially corrupt politicians like Bush, Obama and now Biden.    The ultra-rich saw in it a process where they will control the world totally.    They can do it by undemining demcoracy and that is what is ahppening in the USA at present.    In the pocess democracy si totally opposed.   In the USA at present the regime is anto-democracracy.   By controlling the media in general the news is censored and what is published is under total control fo he Ulrtra-capitalists and their allies in the Demcopratic Party.
In their ideal situation the rich has one enemey and that is to be destroyed,   On their main list is an attack of patriotism and love of people for their counries.   That must be destroyed at all costs - because that is essentially an enemy of themselves.    The bsaic elements of the ultra-rich the childen should be taught that the State is the ideal to strive for - a system developed by Stalin.    Children are taught to hate their parents and regard the State as their alliy in battling family life.   The bureaucracy in the USA are part of the situation - like any bieaucracy in the world they are only interested in advancing their own ideas which can best be achoeved through a facsist system.    
At present the USA is in the process to destroy demcoracy internally.    The Justice Department, the FBI, te CIA and Homeland Security is used against all opposition.    They charge opponents with non-xistent crimes amd use media propaganda agaisnst the basic princioles of Democracy.   Those imncludes amongst others usage of the isntitutions to implement measurs aimed against demcoracy through abandoning free speech and making ot out as a  reason to oppreess it.   In the case of the  FBI  they FIC indicated the  FBI spied illegally on 278 000 people    itn came ou and was exposed by Musk that he WH and the isntitutions mentioned has weekly meetings with  the press and media institutitons that news items citical of the Democratic Party must not be publsihed as came out in evidence before the House.    Another scam is to call things like the January 6 potest insurrection - which was a co-ordinated process based on disinformnation.    
Democracy in the USA  are under attack and represents a direct threat to basic principles of Democracy and support the alliance between the capitalists and politicians embodied in the case of Nazi Germany and copied by the present Chinsese regime.    What is happenin g in the USA is what the people in the EU countries are rebelling against and that  rebelling is also happening in the USA.    As the New York Times wrote in that regard is clear - the people wants a return to rationality and stability - something unheard of in the present regime.   .   .   
        .          .    .   .    .  .     .             .          .     .       .         ,            .       .          .    
.      .       .        
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Jan 2024, 03:51
#3
07 Jan 2024, 03:51#3

Drivel alert

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Jan 2024, 05:03
#4
07 Jan 2024, 05:03#4

BS alert on the part of the Mozart idiocy.     The latrest plant of the Ultra-rich and their emdia is to promote another weakling that would allow the ultra-rich to dictate  polcies they favor is  Haley.    She is no different from th younger Bush, Obama and Biden.    She will do what th special interest roups and essnetially the ultra-rich want her to do.

Part of the problem is there must be a continuous war situation in the world because that allows them to get richer at the expense of everybody else.     The Covid pandemic was a trial run and was used to solidfiy control over the lives of people by Government.   One can write a book why US Governments are always involved in wars and why Heallth control in the USA is now passed over  to the WHO. .        .   .        



         

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
07 Jan 2024, 21:08
#5
07 Jan 2024, 21:08#5
Usual drivel 

If 1+1 = 2, then any BS after that is also true.
I live in Europe, but somehow DumbMike is more in tune with the sentiments. 
Their is a good chance the UK will rejoin the EU - especially if the EU blocks refugees
AJ
AJHPro3,183 posts
07 Jan 2024, 21:45
#6
07 Jan 2024, 21:45#6

Most of the  these folks walking across international borders want to enjoy the western way of life and hand-outs as the "Lefties" are allowing it.

Remember what Fidel Castro did when "Old Peanut farmer" Carter made it know that he would accept all Cuban refugees.

Well to some of you this might be news.

He cleared out most of the Cuban prisions, criminals in hospitals and some lunes, loaded them on boats and sent them to Florida.

This influx in the USA with Bidens "Open Border" is going to a major problem for the country in the long run with respect to the increase in crime and everything els e that goes with housing, hand-outs, unemployment benefits etc and the country as we knew it.

One major disaster after another Biden, Harris and the gang.

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
07 Jan 2024, 21:59
#7
07 Jan 2024, 21:59#7

fArt, the UK is run by the conservatives, who despite their Leave EU campaign based on controlling borders- this did not pan out.

It is international refugee legislation that is preventing countries from acting, but countries will likely leave this treaty - or it will be revised.
Sunak has already expressed interest in leaving the international treaty, so that they can illegally reject refugees.

The international refugee law is a framework of legal norms and principles that govern the protection of refugees. These laws and obligations are primarily outlined in key international treaties and conventions. The cornerstone of international refugee law is the 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and its 1967 Protocol. Here are the fundamental aspects of these laws:

  1. Definition of a Refugee: The 1951 Refugee Convention defines a refugee as a person who is outside their country of nationality or habitual residence and is unable or unwilling to return due to a well-founded fear of persecution based on race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion.

  2. Non-Refoulement: This is the central principle of refugee law. It prohibits the return of refugees to countries where they face serious threats to their life or freedom. This principle is considered part of customary international law and is binding on all states, regardless of whether they have signed the Refugee Convention.

  3. No Penalties for Illegal Entry: The Convention stipulates that refugees should not be penalized for their illegal entry or stay, provided they present themselves to the authorities without delay and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence.

  4. Rights of Refugees: The Convention outlines a range of rights for refugees, including access to courts, the right to work, the right to education, and the right to public relief and assistance. It also sets out obligations for refugees towards their host countries.

  5. Durable Solutions: The international community recognizes three durable solutions for refugees: voluntary repatriation to their home country; local integration into the host country; and resettlement to a third country.

  6. State Responsibilities: States that are parties to the Convention are obliged to uphold the rights and principles it contains. This includes cooperating with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) and ensuring that their national laws and policies are in line with their international obligations.

  7. Exclusion Clauses: The Convention includes clauses that exclude certain people from its protections, including those who have committed serious crimes, such as war crimes, crimes against peace, crimes against humanity, or other serious non-political crimes.

  8. Cessation Clauses: These clauses define the circumstances under which a person may no longer be considered a refugee, such as voluntarily re-availing themselves of the protection of their country of nationality.

It's important to note that while the 1951 Refugee Convention and its 1967 Protocol are the primary legal documents, various regional instruments and national laws also play a significant role in the protection of refugees. These include the 1969 OAU Convention Governing the Specific Aspects of Refugee Problems in Africa and the 1984 Cartagena Declaration in Latin America.

The application of these laws can vary significantly depending on the political, social, and economic context of the host country, as well as the international dynamics at play

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
07 Jan 2024, 22:16
#8
07 Jan 2024, 22:16#8

.

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
07 Jan 2024, 22:18
#9
07 Jan 2024, 22:18#9

The UK, through the statements of Home Secretary Suella Braverman, has indicated a strong stance towards reviewing and potentially revising its commitments under international refugee conventions. Braverman has questioned whether conventions and legal frameworks designed over fifty years ago are still "fit for purpose" in addressing modern migration crises. She has specifically suggested that the UK should consider leaving the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), signed in 1950, which she believes hampers the implementation of stringent migration policies, including the Rwanda scheme??????.

In terms of legislation, the UK's Nationality and Borders Bill, often referred to as the "Anti-refugee bill," has passed its third reading in the House of Commons. This bill is seen as a step towards dismantling the international refugee protection regime in the UK, deviating from the fundamental principles of the 1951 Refugee Convention. The bill includes provisions for sending asylum seekers to a third country for offshore asylum processing and enabling the pushback of boats at sea. Critics argue that such practices are inhumane and unlawful, undermining the right to seek asylum and violating the principle of non-refoulement. There are also concerns about discrimination against recognized refugees based on their mode of arrival and the criminalization of irregular arrival or entry??.

On the other hand, the European Union (EU) has not indicated a departure from international refugee treaties but is pursuing stricter asylum reforms. The EU's 27 member states have agreed on a plan to enact tougher asylum and migration policies. This includes processing asylum applications within a maximum of six months and returning individuals immediately if they have no chance of receiving asylum in the EU. Additionally, countries unwilling to accept asylum-seekers would be required to provide financial assistance to support those seeking protection. The reforms also consider expanding the list of "safe" countries to which asylum-seekers can be returned. However, these changes have sparked debate, particularly regarding the treatment of children and families in border procedures??????????.

In summary, while the UK is showing signs of moving away from its commitments under international refugee conventions, particularly with the introduction of the Nationality and Borders Bill, the EU is focusing on tightening its asylum policies within the existing framework of international treaties. Both approaches have been met with criticism and concerns about their implications for human rights and international law.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Jan 2024, 01:41
#10
08 Jan 2024, 01:41#10

SB

Your understanding of the migrant issue is acceptable and logical - with one snag and that is what "refugees" really are.   The left claim all intrants ar refugees and must be dealt with as such - while the fact is not up to 00% of the reug ees are not really refugees,but rather ecionomic migrants.   

I spoke to one migrant from Nigeria who claimed refugee status - but it really was totally economic ,   He now runs two flourishing shops in the main business area odf Rioversdale.  There are also 3 Chinese shops operating in the town  as well.  There staff all ame from China and would be regarded also as refugees, 

In any event the question is who real refugees are and deal with the refugees on a more liberal basis and sent the economic migrnats back to where they came from.   

In any event migration is not the only problem the EU nations have with the EU at present.   There are at least three other issues where the EU is encountering criticism by people in variosu countries,    Those are -

*     the act is that the US policies could force the start of a war against Russia and that is one hing obody in Europe really wants, but is bing driven by leftists in the EU and in their bureaurocracy in lin with their feelings about NATO;

*     the EU support of the Ukraine War that is causing  major inflaion in especially food and energy costs and cause a substantial degree of  food insecurity in EU countries.

*     The EU global warming policies leading to the creation of meat and dairy products deficienccies anxd causing furher  inflation affecing most voters negatively.   

 All the above aspects was used by the opposition to the previous Government and played a crucial role in the Italian elecion.    It also entails the same aguments used in he Dutch election.

   .   

     .         

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
08 Jan 2024, 05:03
#11
08 Jan 2024, 05:03#11

Exactly Mike...but a lot of European migrants are refugees from the wars...

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
08 Jan 2024, 09:15
#12
08 Jan 2024, 09:15#12
The UK isn't going leave the ECHR in the next few years. The Tories don't have time to do it before the next election which their set to lose quite badly and Labour won't do it, because they are not insane.
What the proponents of such a move (who are often the people who championed Brexit) won't tell you is that the ECHR doesn't just offer protections to migrants but to everyone. Like many of the disaster capitalists who pushed Brexit they have ulterior motives, then it was to avoid EU legislation, in this case the removal of human rights for everyone, both in both cases the motive is money, either keeping or making more of it.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Jan 2024, 09:24
#13
08 Jan 2024, 09:24#13

Draad 

You mean refugees  from the Ukraine war?  There are over 10 million of those in EU countries and near to 5 million in Russia sent there by the Russians Government to guarantee their own safety.      .   

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
08 Jan 2024, 10:55
#14
08 Jan 2024, 10:55#14
If a country such as Japan or South Korea were to experience a natural disaster and its citizens needed to become refugees, that would be acceptable, as they would reciprocate these values. If the situation were reversed, these countries would do the same The main problem with the refugee system is the Muslims, who have no liberal values - and would not help other countries if they had a disaster. They are abusing the refugee system because they are constantly at war(with themselves), and their population grows faster than their economy.

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
08 Jan 2024, 11:06
#15
08 Jan 2024, 11:06#15

The main problem with refugee system is the Muslims, who have no liberal values - and would not help other countries if they had a disaster.

Care to explain why Iran and Turkey have the largest number of refugees in the world?

Several other majority Muslim countries also have high number of refugees. Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sudan.


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Jan 2024, 12:08
#16
08 Jan 2024, 12:08#16

Stav

Lt me explain what really is going on in Muskim countries  their are no human rights to speak of - with some countries like  Turkey and the Balkan States  have a higher level of tolerance iro religious issues - but apply Sharia Laws in repect of crimes.

There sre sects and substsct in the Muslim Countries -  for example the Sunni,Shia, Sufi and Barelvi .   These sedcts are at constant war against ach ther like the case is in Sirya and Iraq is at present - with the US Army posts are in the middle and get attacked by both sides.   Intolerance within Muslim countries has caused  reppetative wars for over 1200 years and that resulted in large refugee situations.        

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
08 Jan 2024, 12:39
#17
08 Jan 2024, 12:39#17

Stav, that may well be true, but the question remains about why Muslims account for most refugees. (Consis tantely, not like a one-off situation like Ukraine). 

They are intolerant, and constantly at war, probably due to religious intolerance between different sects (A bit like how Protestanism and Catholics used to war hundreds of years ago).

I don't see how the rest of the world constantly has to take in their refugees.
All of them should go to other Muslim countries (based on the type of Muslim sec that will not war with them).

Third-world countries need to slow down their population growth, not dump all their poor people on other countries. 

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
08 Jan 2024, 14:26
#18
08 Jan 2024, 14:26#18

Stav, that may well be true, but the question remains about why Muslims account for most refugees. (Consistantely, not like a one-off situation like Ukraine).

It's a rather complex topic. There is a number of natural, historical and cultural factors for it. Climate change is also becoming an increasing factor in it. Not all Muslim's who are displaced are fleeing persecution from other Muslims. Palestine and Myanmar for example. The west also has to acknowledge many of its military actions have had a destabilizing effect on the middle east that's contributed to the issue. The Syrian conflict might now be over if not the actions of Russia propping up Assad. Now that's not to excuse Muslim wars among themselves. Inter-Muslim sectarianism does play a significant role in conflicts that generate large numbers of refugees but its also not the sole reason's for these conflicts.

You also can't just exclude Ukraine. That's cooking the books to make your argument sound better. Its like a government coming out and saying, we brought down crime this year...if you exclude murders!

They are intolerant, and constantly at war, probably due to religious intolerance between different sects (A bit like how Protestanism and Catholics used to war hundreds of years ago).

I don't like to place a blanket label on any religion or ethnicity. I do have issues with Islam, I'd certainly would never want to be a Muslim or live in a country ruled by Islamic law and I absolutely condemn Islamic extremist terrorism.  But at the same time I wouldn't discriminate against any genuine refugee just because they are Muslim.

I don't see how the rest of the world constantly has to take in their refugees.

The majority are taken in by other Muslim countries. If by the rest of the world of the world you mean the west. Well the west is a lot better able to able handle refugees because its a lot wealthier.

All of them should go to other Muslim countries (based on the type of Muslim sec that will not war with them).

They mostly do,  though sometimes its not possible, tell me if you had the opportunity as a muslim refugee to go another m uslim country that's just as poor and war torn as your own country or you had the chance of a better life in a rich and peaceful western country, which would you choose?


AJ
AJHPro3,183 posts
08 Jan 2024, 15:11
#19
08 Jan 2024, 15:11#19

As this influx increases the people of the West best take heed of what their future is going to look like 10 to 20 years down the road.

The USA, UK, Canada and European countries will be swamped with refugees from Africa while the Arab countries will continue feeding the migration in their quest for a Muslim dominate world order.

Best to start reading books from back to front and praying facing the East I guess as no western Camel lovers in those countries have the foresight or the future of their countries at heart.

Much like what happened after the ANC took over in 1992 and millions of North Africans moved South.

Now 30 years later everything has gone for a s--t.

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
08 Jan 2024, 15:18
#20
08 Jan 2024, 15:18#20

Drivel Alert!

AJ
AJHPro3,183 posts
08 Jan 2024, 15:23
#21
08 Jan 2024, 15:23#21

None of the TV coverage of the USA southern border has ever captured a bunch of Doctors, Surgeons, Scientists, professional people or at least educated and civil running the border.

Wonder why.

But your guess is as good as mine as to what really is making the trek ........

Now even the African Americans are crying foul in NY etc as they are footing the bill for these "Brothers and Sisters" living on hand-outs and who will eventually take their jobs.

Well at least those BLM folks who do have a job.

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
08 Jan 2024, 17:04
#22
08 Jan 2024, 17:04#22
Stav, I understand what you mean by painting people with one brush,  but many Muslims- especially poor ones are going to be very religious. A good percentage of them will not integrate with Western society and just live off benefits.
Muslims create riots in the EU because of wars inside Muslim countries when it does not even involve the country where they are staying

For example, picking up cars and dropping them upside down in the road, burning shops, looting etc, etc. They burnt down a house last year of a town Mayor, who was fortunate to not be home at the time.

When Muslims are at war it often seems that if one side is bad, then the other side is good. 
So the winning side is bad, but if the losing side was winning would they be any different? 

If they are struggling to live alongside other Muslims, how are they going to cope in a liberal country? 

The average birth rate is 1.7% in many countries in the world.
If you import people who have 10 kids on average (10% rate), they will eventually become the majority. In time they will want affirmative action laws (like in South Africa) where certain jobs are reserved for people who are not white- to balance past injustices.

3rd world countries have the slowest growing economies, but the fastest growing population - so they are creating their own problems. 
China created laws to reduce population growth and following this, they have turned into a world power. Now the birth rate is the same as in the West- and the middle class don't want lots of kids, Japan, South Korea etc.


ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
08 Jan 2024, 19:53
#23
08 Jan 2024, 19:53#23

Stav, I understand what you mean by painting people with one brush,  but many Muslims- especially poor ones are going to be very religious. They are going to paint the West with one brush. They understand Sharia law, not Democratic law. This is what they base their values on.

Perhaps some or many hold negative views to varying degrees of the West. Do you think slamming the asylum door in their face is going to change that? Perhaps they actually might become quite positive towards the country that helped them in their hour of need. Do you also not think there is a chance they might moderate their views after living in the liberalized west and being exposed to the western way for several years. And even if a majority of refugees hold a negative view of the west, what percentage of those would ever act in a violent or dangerous manner due to those feeling?

Now you might so Islam is too extreme too moderate over time . But if you go back into history and think about say the time of the Crusades, Christianity back then was far more extreme than anything we have now but it moderated in time.

Its also irrelevant what law they understand. Sharia law is not in effect in any western countries. They have to obey the laws of the land that they live in end of story. If they don't they can be sent to jail or deported. 

Muslims create riots in the EU because of wars inside Muslim countries when it does not even involve the country where they are staying

And non Muslims riot too. Only a month or so back anti immigrant far right wing rioters trashed the city center of Dublin. Recently in Ireland several properties ear marked to house asylum seekers in Ireland have been burned down, the most recent one was burned down after a incorrect rumor started that the property to was house asylum seekers when it was in fact ear marked to house homeless people (not refugees). All coming off the back right wing anti immigrant misinformation. One rumor going around was that police where handing out notification of a 6PM curfew for women due to the arrival of refugees in a town.

Now if you happen to be referring to the events on Armistice day in the UK where a massive Pro-Palestinian rally took place calling for peace in Gaza (you know what better do they do it on than the day that commemorates the guns falling silent), the vast majority of those who took part did so peacefully, yes their was some pro-hamas signs and other distasteful signs and slogans. There was also several arrests among those in the rally, but you're talking a handful of out and 300,000 but significantly less than from the far right counter rally that took place that day which unbelievably was incited by the home secretary.

For example, picking up cars and dropping them upside down in the road, burning shops, looting etc, etc. They burnt down a house last year of a town Mayor, who was fortunate to not be home at the time.

You mean like this mayor in France who's house was burned down for supporting immigrants?

https://apnews.com/article/france-migrants-mayor-resign-fire-town-87194f39fe88921a841a930b608c4d42

Now this isn't to excuse criminal and extremist behavior by Muslims or to say that integrating muslims into western society is easy and without challenges. But you need to look at the whole picture and by mindful of the sheer amount of disinformation out there.

When Muslims are at war it often seems that if one side is bad, then the other side is good. 
So the winning side is bad, but if the losing side was winning would they be any different?

Well there isn't a yes or no answer to that. Take Syria, I think a victory for the Free State Syrian Army would of been better than Assad winning but honestly I don't know much about them, Assad winning was probably better than Islamic state. That's a choice between the lesser of two evils. Again its complex. Sometimes you have only bad choices, some times the choice is clearly easier to make, like in the case of the Taliban's return in Afghanistan.

If they are struggling to live alongside other Muslims, how are they going to cope in a liberal country?

Probably much easier, because they are not going to be killed for being a member of a different sect of Islam or also to do with the fact they are not leaving under some Authoritarian regime but countries that value human life.

The average birth rate is 1.7% in many countries in the world.
If you import people who have 10 kids on average (10% rate), they will eventually become the majority.

In time they will want affirmative action laws (like in South Africa) where certain jobs are reserved for people who are not white- to balance past injustices.

Usually the driver of high birth rates is poverty. With a higher standard of living the birth rate will likely decrease among muslims living in the west. For  muslims to reach a majority population in western countries your talking a process that would take decades, and that's assuming current high levels of immigration rates remain the same. But also even if sometime in the future muslims become the majority in a western state you also have to assume that all Muslims would want Sharia law and vote it in. After decades living in a liberal society, who knows by then a substantial minority or even a majority of them may prefer not to have any form of sharia law implemented.

China created laws to reduce population growth and following this, they have turned into a world power. Now the birth rate is the same as in the West, Japan, South Korea etc.

Well the one child policy wasn't what turned China into an economic power and China now has a demographic time bomb on its hands because its population is declining at quite a rate and I'm seeing increasing economic predictions that China is set to follow the Japanese into economic stagnation.

3rd world countries have the slowest growing economies, but the fastest growing population - so they are creating their own problems.

Religion isn't the primary driver of that though.



SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
08 Jan 2024, 21:43
#24
08 Jan 2024, 21:43#24

Stav, all of your answers are morally the best options. 

However, I do see a risk that allowing an increasing amount of third-world people into first-world countries could backfire- Muslims in particular.

Many people share this fear, and it is why we are seeing the far right get into power. 
I do think the left needs to follow the Democratic will of the people- not just ideals that are perhaps just too far from the current state of the human condition.

I read that China has had the fastest-growing middle class in the world - and I assume the child limit from the last century has played a major role in uplifting China. It was a total reverse of when they were encouraged to have large families.
Smaller families suit smaller earnings, and more to invest in fewer kids (e.g. university)
Imagine trying to pay for 10 kids to go to university. 

I think all third-world countries should go through the same process to sort out the poor majority problem if they want to get their economy working well- and uplift people. 

If population growth exceeds the GDP, a country is going to have lots of poor people who are not educated. Ift these people are taken in by other countries, there is a chance that they will just have massive families - and eventually become the majority. 

Even if it never became Sharia law, it does not mean the UK should become a Muslim-majority country. 


SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
08 Jan 2024, 21:51
#25
08 Jan 2024, 21:51#25

Stav, I also saw the antics of Connor Mcgregor and his fans burn the buses in Dublin city centre. 
That was totally out of line, but if a country is short of accommodation even for its own people- it makes little sense to give this to refugees.

That makes people question liberal values. A major distrust of the government has happened in the West. From the Tories stealing the NHS budget for Covid, to liberals wanting to help people from other countries - but not their own. 


SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
08 Jan 2024, 22:04
#26
08 Jan 2024, 22:04#26

Keir Starmer, the leader of the Labour Party, has recently made several statements regarding immigration policies. He has expressed a commitment to combatting people smuggling, equating it with terrorism, and plans to use serious crime orders to freeze smugglers’ assets??. Furthermore, he intends to tackle the issue of foreign workers being underpaid in the UK. Currently, companies can pay migrant labourers 80% of the standard rate for a job, but a Labour government would end this practice????.

Starmer also advocates for an Australian-style points-based immigration system, similar to what was demanded by Brexiteers during the 2016 referendum and later implemented by the Tories??. He has emphasized the need for the British economy to reduce its dependency on immigration, signalling a significant shift in Labour's approach to immigration policy??. These statements indicate a more stri ngent stance on immigration, focusing on both economic aspects and security concerns.

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
08 Jan 2024, 23:14
#27
08 Jan 2024, 23:14#27

Many people share this fear, and it is why we are seeing the far right get into power.

Yes many people do share that fear, but is that fear justified? And yes far right populists do exploit that fear to help gain power. But it doesn't work on its own. They also need the failure of mainstream politics to occur to give them their opening.

I do think the left needs to follow the Democratic will of the people- not just ideals that are perhaps just too far from the current state of the human condition.

Sounds like your saying, "you know I might possibly wrong on this topic but I'm comfortable where I am so I'm not going to question it" Also seems I've more faith in humanity than you do.

I read that China has had the fastest-growing middle class in the world - and I assume the child limit from the last century has played a major role in uplifting China. It was a total reverse of when they were encouraged to have large families.
Smaller families suit smaller earnings, and more to invest in fewer kids (e.g. university)
Imagine trying to pay for 10 kids to go to university.

Well I can't say it didn't play some role in the past but I've not really heard any economist mention it when talking about China's economic boom. I do know China's falling population is set to hurt them in the long run.

I think all third-world countries should go through the same process to sort out the poor majority problem if they want to get their economy working well- and uplift people.

Well if you come up an idea for that process, I look forward to seeing Sharkbok collecting his Nobel Peace Prize.

If population growth exceeds the GDP, a country is going to have lots of poor people who are not educated. Ift these people are taken in by other countries, there is a chance that they will just have massive families - and eventually become the majority. 

And do you know what can reduce a countries GDP.  Population decline as less people are able to work. Also GDP as a measurement of a countries success can be misleading. A countries GDP can be going up but if wages can't keep up with inflation the population is actually getting poorer.

Even if it never became Sharia law, it does not mean the UK should become a Muslim-majority country.

I don't believe the UK will ever become a majority Muslim country. I was speaking more for hypothetical point of view.

Stav, I also saw the antics of Connor Mcgregor and his fans burn the buses in Dublin city centre.

McGregor's an ejit but I wouldn't lay any blame on McGregor for the riots, but he did express his support for the rioters after it happened. 

That was totally out of line, but if a country is short of accommodation even for its own people- it makes little sense to give this to refugees.

You frequently here this from people, "I'm not against refugees but we should sort out our own problems and our own people first before helping people from other countries". There is only one problem with that, no country will ever achieve that mythical utopia. What country will ever have no homeless? Its just code for lets never help refugees and often the people who say don't give a f**k about the locals either, "bunch of drug riddled dole scroungers!"

That makes people question liberal values. A major distrust of the government has happened in the West. From the Tories stealing the NHS budget for Covid, to liberals wanting to help people from other countries - but not their own.

Well yes if I lived in the UK I would have major distrust in the government and its client media, but when did people who support wanting to help refugees not want to help their own? Who's pushing that idea...could it be the Tory client media?

Tell me this Shark, say the UK drastically cuts the number of refugees it accepts. How much of a difference do you think its going to make. Is it going to radically improve the UK economy, make the NHS better, is it going to make the UK a much safer place? It will make virtually no difference.

You know what might make a difference, getting rid of that current shower of incompetent clowns is what make the difference. Unelecting the clowns that made a mess of HS2 project, that allowed the pumping of raw sewage into the rivers and seas, that blew a £50 billion Liz Stuzz size hole in the economic, that committed mass fraud and waste during the Covid pandemic, that allowed school buildings fall into such a dangerous state of repair that multiple schools had to close, that's seen NHS waiting times increase and increase etc etc etc.

The people pushing immigration and the culture wars as an issue in the UK are the Tories, because they can't fight on their economic record and for once the first past the post system is hurting them more than Labour in that they are getting out flanked on the right. Who else is pushing it. The same people who brought you the clusterf** k that was Brexit. And I'll tell you something, the UK could probably take in ten times the number of refugees and it will be still less costly than Brexit.



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Jan 2024, 03:25
#28
09 Jan 2024, 03:25#28

Stav

I admire your idealisitc comemns on issues and what you wrote are morally right from the leftist perspective.   However, those ultra liberal ideals have no link to reality and no idea about how it really works out.    I have worked with muslims for years and one of my best friends are still my lawyer so I know there are moderate muslims - but they are far and few between - the majority are anything bar moderate.

I will give you one example and that happened on 9/11 day in Stanger I was attendinga Municipal Council meeting the afternoon - while in the neary Mosque a  meeing  was held by the mu slim eldes and mostly school children from a medressa school and oher scholls in the area.   The muicipal Council meetings tarted when the Madeessa meting ended and the children attending it c ame out of the most and started scratching the paint off cars and the police surrounded the Cuncil meeting hall to protect the Councillors and staff at the emeting.   there were attacks on the shops of non-Muslims as well.    Some innocent people were injured as well in the meleee as well.     

I know more muslims than you do  and ahve many Musklim riends - but that in the nd does not apply to the vcast majority of Muslims.     I helpd to get funds for some projects involving help fo childen in paticular  - a school for the blind. - a school for the death and at least four schools  for th emntally retarded.   One day I got a call from a Muslim involving with a project in Johannesburg warning me that we must get the Police  to guard the office building whee I worked.    I reported  it to the Regiional manager of the Department I worked for and he did not contact the Police at all.  F ourdays later at about 5 o'clock there was a massive bomb blast at the building.    Year later I was in Cape Town and had lunch with another close Muslim riend of mine - who was Asistant Secretary of Paliament in the dining room providing lunch for members.    The guy whom I believed phoned me about the potential bomb blast - came to our table and I tnaked him for the phone call and he jsut smiled and said nothing in response..

I gave you examples of muslim finds I had close ties with - but lets put it mildly - they make up a very small component of the Muslim community - who hates non-muslims and atheists .   The few i had as real friends wee all wel-educated and real liberals.- I would say 5% falls in that category, - the rest was under total control of the fanartical wing - that will serve Allah by killing and murdering pople.   if incied by the Mullahs,    

Amongst the illegal migrants the educated and lieral lements are not present at all and he elements causing amjor problems in cuntries they moved to are anatics and in many cases ciminals attached to gangs.     In my experience I would saqy 2,5% moderates and  97,5%  fanatics.    The latte is what is causing roblems in Europe and he USA.   

I am ot a religous fanatic and that makes me stay clear of any fanatics - but I realize there is very little  chance of dealing with fanatics using the wonderful liberal hopes you are expressing - it will inevitakly fail and if you think othewise I am afraid you will be disappointed in you hopes and dreams in years to come.   

I gained h impression that you refe to a riot in Dublin resulting from a stabbing of children and others by a Muslim migrant.   Was that the incident you refer to above?    

By the way - the problems stemming from implementing geen polcieis to deal with thee Climae change Hoax are also poblems affecing pople and that is part of the reason votes move to the right as well.    The EVU wrote out lextremist policies and implmentation of massive amounts of money into projects with dubious results and isead of helping th people the policies are fdring them into deaspair.   I waqrnd you that  people in countries will not suport  projcts and ideas that would dive them fuirther into poverty.   In D emocracies the idea is to goven countries to enhance and protect the citizens of countries and not drive them into desperation because of .haphazard policies like elimination of cows because they cause Global Waming through farting.     All the fearmongering BS attached to global warming in the end will only be to the detriment of the ordinary people in countries,   

.        .   .   . 

          .    .          

        .      ..        .   .     .   

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
09 Jan 2024, 10:11
#29
09 Jan 2024, 10:11#29

A possible future is the West turning into South Africa where white people are to blame for everything, with permanent affirmative action in place to rectify past imbalances. (e.g. White people are blocked from many jobs in South Africa because white people are richer on average than black people- even when the richest and most powerful people are black). 

The London riots seemed like a scene from South Africa. They were spinning the same story - e.g. they are oppressed. It is easy to deal with the situation when they are a minority- but if that changes over time - we will start to see politicians pushing a Black Lives Matter agenda

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Jan 2024, 12:07
#30
09 Jan 2024, 12:07#30

SB

Hope it does not happen.  BLM is the terrirst subsidiary of the Democratic Party in the US A.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Jan 2024, 16:11
#31
09 Jan 2024, 16:11#31

X

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Jan 2024, 18:51
#32
09 Jan 2024, 18:51#32

Z

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Jan 2024, 19:07
#33
09 Jan 2024, 19:07#33

Z


DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
09 Jan 2024, 19:09
#34
09 Jan 2024, 19:09#34

?

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
09 Jan 2024, 19:12
#35
09 Jan 2024, 19:12#35
This is an example of tolerance not being tolerated. Some of the left showing values that are not going to be respected if the power was reversed.


BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
09 Jan 2024, 20:47
#36
09 Jan 2024, 20:47#36

ccl

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
09 Jan 2024, 21:09
#37
09 Jan 2024, 21:09#37

A possible future is the West turning into South Africa where white people are to blame for everything, with permanent affirmative action in place to rectify past imbalances. (e.g. White people are blocked from many jobs in South Africa because white people are richer on average than black people- even when the richest and most powerful people are black).

Ah here, your starting to sound like Beeno and Mike. Don't make me bring out the Picard face palm gif!

The London riots seemed like a scene from South Africa. They were spinning the same story - e.g. they are oppressed. It is easy to deal with the situation when they are a minority- but if that changes over time - we will start to see politicians pushing a Black Lives Matter agenda
You referring to the 2011 London riots that spread across to other cities in the UK, that lead to the death of 5 people and 3,000 arrests?
Which also was one where 41% of those charged with offenses where white compared to 39% who where black? And also the riot s where 3 of the 5 people killed where Muslim?
This is an example of tolerance not being tolerated. Some of the left showing values that are not going to be respected if the power was reversed.
You didn't perhaps fact check that photo by any chance? Because while the picture of the dead man being dragged from the back of a motorcycle is from Gaza, the man was killed not because he was queer but because he was suspected of collaborating with the Israeli's. So what that is an example of is of disinformation.

You also misunderstand the motives of those holding the Queers for Palestine sign.






BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
09 Jan 2024, 21:19
#38
09 Jan 2024, 21:19#38

You also misunderstand the motives of those holding the Queers for Palestine sign.

tell us please..........................

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
09 Jan 2024, 22:32
#39
09 Jan 2024, 22:32#39


tell us please..........................
Well by the implication of the cows for McDonald sign implies the people holding the sign are this completely naive bunch and unaware of the difficulties LGBT people face in muslim countries.
In the case of Palestine it's a little bit more complex in that the West Bank decriminalized same sex-acts but that's not the case in Gaza. Either way its commonly a taboo subject in both territories for fear of persecution and potential violence.
So as I said its not that people holding those are unaware of this fact or that it never occurred to them if the lived in Palestinian territories they would face the same issues, they of course know this and want gay people in Palestinian to be as tolerated in Gaza as they are in the west.
But you see here's the thing, what good would be it to for a gay Palestinian person in the Gaza strip to be told from this day you are now free to be openly gay without facing persecution when you know you live...ahem...IN THE FUCKING GAZA STRIP which is being vaporized at the moment by mass aerial bombardment.

Wonderful say s the gay Palestinian man...I can go tell the other secretly gay Palestinian man I've loved for years that we can finally be together, oh wait he's dead crush under ruble, and so is my family and my friends, and my home's destroyed, and I'm living in a make shift overcrowded refugee camp, in a small room with a dozen other miserable people, which may be destroyed at any minute and its freezing cold, and I have no food, and there is no toilets, and there is no running water,  and if I get injured there is no functioning hospitals, and there is also the constant noise of artillery, rockets and missile reminding me there's no chance of escape and I might die at any moment and there is no time frame on when its going to end.

And my point, freedom to be gay is pointless without actually being free.
 

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,196 posts
09 Jan 2024, 23:18
#40
09 Jan 2024, 23:18#40

Stav, I think what you saying is naive and gleaned from the media rather than real-life experience,

It seems you are just responding with "Insert - 'Whatever left-wing political mores are the fashion of today'.

Liberal values will not help in real-life situations when your aggressors don't share those values.

I suggest you try to live in South Africa between 1988-1998 and compare it to what it is now- you will be surprised. 
It was a safe place with a good economy - now it has been turned into a township run by gangs.
Many people from the UK and Ireland left SA around the time I did. 

I knew people from various places in the world through surfing who lived in Durban -and they all packed up and left around the same time I did.

Or even try to live in Palestine or the Middle East. Your opinion may be different. 

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