P.s while I read that media reports say the London riots were mostly white people. That is not what I saw when about 100 people stormed a street near where I lived. It may have been a coincidence, but also what I saw on TV the crowds appeared to have a dark complexion.
What was like in South Africa was the rioters - also happened to be looters. It is more routine in South Africa - and not something I associate with the UK.
SB\
The poo Stav does not live in S A and he plight of he segegationist policies of he present regime. Let me explain - I fled from KwaZulu-Natal in 2015 after living in that province for 40 years for a variety of reasons mostly crime - but also organized attacks on factories and shops.
The Westen Cape controlldd by the colored and White communities are a place of peace and growth and real low levels of crime - the rest of he country is just going down faster and faster. The SA Government copied the Biden Administration 100%. - everything is contolled by bribry and cruption. After SA got rid of Jacob Zuma because of his prvoen corruption the looting just continued under Ramaphosa.
SA has a national election this year and according to opinion polls the ANC will at best lose its Parliamentay majoiy and will have to form a coalition Government. Let me explain something to you, In 2021 there were cuntrywide local Govenment elecions - o the 26 million reistered votes in SA only 8,2 million voted. Of the latter figure 3,5 million were whites, Coloreds and Indians = mostly in the Wesern Cape. The A NC lost control in all. 7 metro areas in SA and is at present in charge in some based on coalition agreements.
As an ezxmple in Kwadukuza Municipality (Stanger) the ANC was in total control by a massive margin in previous elections - fact is of the 63 Councillors 57 were ANC membesm After the 2021 election there were 31 ANC Members and 31 opposition membesr with the ANC the 1 EFF member was elected as Speaker.
Weirdly the S A Govenment used a vey good election system and it is tightly controlled by a computer system - nobody is allowed to register as a voter wihout identification and proof of residence and noboy allowed to vote without proof of idntity.. . , . . .
Stav, I think what you saying is naive and gleaned from the media rather than real-life experience,
It seems you are just responding with "Insert - 'Whatever left-wing political mores are the fashion of today'.
Liberal values will not help in real-life situations when your aggressors don't share those values.
Well genuinely I've never experienced aggression from a muslim or a black person person. Does that not count?
I'm also not aware of Islamic related terror attacks in Ireland. The knife attack that triggered the Dublin riots isn't being treated as a terrorist attack by police here and I'm also not aware of any evidence that Mulsim's are more likely to commit crimes here than non Muslims.
I personally don't know many Muslims, but I know two Muslim women from my old job. My ex-boss married a Muslim women. Interestingly at the time the women was very concerned about how her father back home in Egypt would react to the news she was marrying a non muslim as he was quite a devout Muslim, her mother had no issues with but she didn't tell her father for months. When she eventually did, turned out her didn't mind at all. In the case of the second women it was a similar situation she was decided to marry a non Muslim, this time the father back home did react badly to the news and as a result they no longer speak to each other. She obviously wishes that wasn't the case but she wasn't going to allow religion or tradition stand in the way of marrying the person she loved and was prepared to cut her dad out of her life to do so. Anecdotal as those examples may be I do think they support my view that Muslims living in the west can integrate.
P.S. - I did not even think that picture of the LGBT being dragged by
the motorcycle was real - I thought it was just manipulated to create a
meme.
It got its point across (E.g.intollerance not tolerating tolerance)
Well that picture meme or not was made with a specific intention.
Here is the thing your not being very tolerant yourself.
Absolutely you can be totally intolerant towards Islamic extremism, the likes of ISIS, Hamas and many of the governments running Muslim countries. You also don't have to tolerate the teachings of Islam, I mean who should tolerate stoning for adultery or death for apostasy. But on the other hand you also need to acknowledge that of the near 4 million Muslims in the UK, the overwhelming majority obey the law, pay their taxes and contribute to society. Should they not be tolerated, or should not tolerate for example the 42,000 Muslims working in the NHS after have contributed towards saving or extending hundreds of thousands of lives?
I suggest you try to live in South Africa between 1988-1998 and compare it to what it is now- you will be surprised.
It was a safe place with a good economy - now it has been turned into a township run by gangs.
Many people from the UK and Ireland left SA around the time I did.
Well firstly I don't have a time machine. Secondly even I could visit there, I'm not sure I could extol the positives of a country during the years of the Apartheid era and yes I'm aware that not all those years where in the apartheid era.
As for a safe place with a good economy, no it wasn't. Check the murder rates for those years and compare them to later years. By western standards South Africa was not safe then and its not safe now. For those years you listed unemployment rate was between 16.5% and 26.1%. No country with those numbers could be considered a good economy. In those 11 years South Africa had good real GDP growth in 5 of the years, weak growth in 2 years and negative growth in 3 years. The average real term growth to GDP in those years was about 1.65%. The following 10 years saw on average much better real GDP growth in South Africa. Between 2012 and 2022 ( I don't have the numbers for 2023) the South Africa real GDP grow on average by 1.1% So you could call the economic growth of South Africa during that time period as solid or better than the present but you could hardly call it good.
P.s while I read that media reports say the London riots were mostly
white people. That is not what I saw when about 100 people stormed a
street near where I lived. It may have been a coincidence, but also what
I saw on TV the crowds appeared to have a dark complexion.
What
was like in South Africa was the rioters - also happened to be looters.
It is more routine in South Africa - and not something I associate with
the UK.
Well both you and I have had pops at Mike in the past when he argues localized weather disproves climate change. This is sort of the same situation. Now from my reading of the riots the rioters in London where more black than white, though it varied from district to district while in Manchester they where more white than black. But nationwide more white people where charged with offenses than blacks.
Not tolerating intolerance, does not make someone intolerant.
As not as if someone should tolerate Jihad.
I said pretty much that in last post. How many refugees have been found to be Jihadists?
Yes, Yes it is not all Muslims- but many of them see Democracy as the devil.
Where are you getting this from? To quote wikipedia
"Polls conducted by Gallup and PEW in Muslim-majority countries indicate that most Muslims see no contradiction between democratic values and religious principles, desiring neither a theocracy, nor a secular democracy, but rather a political model where democratic institutions and values can coexist with the values and principles of Islam"
And here is the link to the polls.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/28762/majorities-muslims-americans-see-religion-law-compatible.aspx
Also what was one of key aims of many of the protesters who took part in the Arab spring? It wasn't perchance happen to be democracy now?
If the Muslims are so liberal and tolerant, why are they constantly at war with themselves - and other countries?
Firstly I didn't make the claim that Muslims are "so liberal and tolerant". I personal view them as less liberal and tolerant than people in the west in general but the degree to which varies from Muslim country to Muslim country. But regardless of this Muslims living in the West do overwhelming comply with the laws of the countries they live in.
As to why they are constantly at war, well check this research out that looked into the number of conflicts Muslims have been involved in between the end of World War 2 and 2014 and compared it to other religions. Long and the short of it, is that yes wars in Muslim countries is a greater issue than is it in Christian countries (which I going substitute in for western countries in this case) but civil wars in Muslim countries account for only about 7% of the time period this research measured as opposed to 3% for Christian nations. That's not exactly what one would describe as constant.
It also gives some of the reasons for the conflicts, not all of which are down solely to religion.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302972029_Are_Muslim_countries_more_prone_to_violence
Also I take it you haven't checked how many conflicts your adapted country the UK has been involved in the same time period?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_Kingdom
He who casts the first stone perhaps?
Also don't f**k with Iceland when it comes to fishing!
Why would they suddenly tolerate other walks of life, if they can't get on with other Muslims?
Its not to say Muslim countries and societies don't have significant issues, they do, but you make it sound like Muslims are constantly at war with everyone and everything all the time. They are not, as demonstrably proven by the millions of Muslims who live and work in the UK and obey its laws.
Also any refugee who comes to the west regardless of background, risks deportation if they don't comply with the laws of the country they are seeking refuge in.
You are assuming the losing side in the fight are good guys.
If
the losing side starts winning in 10 years, and the winning team now
starts losing in 10 years- do you want to bring in the former winning
side- now losing side?
I'm not assuming either side is the good or bad guys. I'm assuming human beings deserve the right to be treated as human beings regardless of their religion, lack of religion or ethnicity.
Also I had to type that out twice as the power failed here. Damn load shedding!
legal immigration is such a racist evil thing...how dare they!!!!
legal immigration is such a racist evil thing...how dare they!!!!
What?
And before anyone says it, no I'm not saying just because (LOL Plum forgive me) you have issues with immigration or the number of refugees, it does not make automatically mean you're a racist.
"Dublin ranks among the top ten most dangerous major cities in Europe
Emm what's that got to do with the topic were discussing on this thread?
...nothing at all.
Stav, the far right is winning independents by campaigning on Muslim bans (e.g. Netherlands and Italy), it does suggest the public sentiment is that more people don't want Muslim refugees.
Or Brexit- take back our borders campaign etc, etc.
The far right is gaining steam because of the refugee situation. Sure there could be other factors, but not enough to flip people for a far-right candidate.
If the voter population is made up of the left, independents, and right - it is safe to assume if a far-right candidate wins on a Muslim ban campaign- that is what the Democratic consensus is.
...horse sh!t...the normal conservatives are being labeled as far right because of a slight overlapping of ideas...nothing to do with left or right and all to do with the stupid abandonment of basic common sense.
Stav, the far right is winning independents by campaigning on Muslim bans (e.g. Netherlands and Italy), it does suggest the public sentiment is that more people don't want Muslim refugees.
Then there is this quite literally from today.
Or Brexit- take back our borders campaign etc, etc.
And how's that working out for the UK? I would thought after the disaster that was Brexit you would have been extremely weary of populist nonsense. Thankfully the British public by and large are now. That's why the Tories are going to get pummeled at the next election.
Surely you must know rubbish like the Rwanda plan is nothing but a ridiculous joke at this stage and will never work in a million years.
The far right is gaining steam because of the refugee situation.
Not in the UK, but in other countries yes.
Sure there could be other factors, but not enough to flip people for a far-right candidate. If the voter population is made up of the left, independents, and right - it is safe to assume if a far-right candidate wins on a Muslim ban campaign- that is what the Democratic consensus is.
Meloni didn't campaign on banning Mulsims, but she did take an anti immigration line. Wilder's did and while he won the election, he did not win an absolute majority and just two days ago he had to abandon his intention to ban the mosques and the Quran because he knows he will never be able to form a coalition government if he kept such a policy. I.E. more people in the Netherlands voted for people who are against such a policy.
Stav, that article is an opnion, and I did not see much data to substantiate their arguement.
They article does highlight one point I agree with - that the working class have also been pushed further right because their economic conditions have declined due to globalism (eg. manufacturing moving to China). The shareholders have become richer than ever - but the wealth is more centralised in fewer people.
If a country has primary, secondary and tertiary industries - it is jobs for everyone.
If a country starts importing cheaper alternatives to locally maufactured products - it is less jobs for some industries.
Bump
Th re h as been a maj poblem eve since WW2 and those are scare tactics used in the mdeia to try and influence people. The so-called fcar rig ht issue is BS. Most people in the wrlds are moderates - while the Governments in the USA and EU are full steam ahead with elftist ideology.
There sis one thig that stav wrote elesewhere that si really funny. The global Warming religion was let loose on tehw orld by politicians and is aied at total control fo people by the leftists Governments. in Europe and the USA. 1 600 climatetologists undertaook a study of what Governments used and four there wqas no proof of a looming climate disaster due to globa warming caused by human activities and faring cows.
There are plety of cases where environmental pollution by humans are extremely negative with extremely negative impacts on the environemnt - but that has zro o do with the Global Warming relifion that has taken over leftist ideology. What is weird is that none of the disaqtster preductions of the Gkobalk Warming ideology has ever materialized - same as their 1960-70 predictions of a looming ice age.
According to real science there were over millions of years periods whe there was a gradual cooling and heating of earth was a scientifically proved sceario. in heating periods there has been mini ice ages that happened as recetly as the 14th centurey when for istances Genlamnd was abandeond by Vikings liiving in Greenland at the time.
Looking at the graphs over the last 500 000 years the world would start cooling down and that cooling period can bee xpected sooner rather tha alter - according to historic prooof th elast ice age lasted until 12 000 years BC and a change i cycl could happen soon and the collig peord can start sooner rather than later.
The only thing that is clear cientifically is that there have been warming and cooling cycles on earth and that is inevitable. What will then eb the result? Would it be back to forecast by scientists that the new Ice age wil start by 1985. It never happened - an the same scientists invovled changed their tune to Global Warming - a new imminet disaster forecaset aimed at subjecting humans to dicttorial Goverments. . . .
Stav
That last issue is important -\ but ti is not the normal working class people that flooded into Europe and the USA . That is a problem in especially the USA . The unskilled and lowly-skilled people now in competition for jobs with the migrants and in the USA there are now more than 450 000 unaccompanied children in the country used as slave labor in that country. The situation has been investigated after US workers comlained they have been dismissed and replaced with children used as sklave laborers - the issue was investigated by the New York Times - so it doe come from an extreme left-wing agenda. See the following clip as t a S nate Heaig on the issue:-
https://www.google.com/search?q=sENATOR+jOSH+hAWLEY+QUESTIONG+eUDCATION+d+EPARTMENT+ON+cHILD+MIGRANTS&rlz=1C1YTUH_enZA1068ZA1070&oq=sENATOR+jOSH+hAWLEY+QUESTIONG+eUDCATION+d+EPARTMENT+ON+cHILD+MIGRANTS&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCjM0MTc0ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:c88aa24c,vid:b-quVroJkIk,st:0
That is not happening only to children - it is happening to grown-ups as well. In the meantime the costs of migrants cost the US Government on all levels more than 7 billion dollars per month for accommodation, food and hospitalization and medical treatment. Now that boils down to the rich using cheaper labor and the workers are getting poorer by the day due to inlfation and there are already 49 million people in the USA uffering from food insecurity, The Government has no money to help these U S citizens - but they have billions to help migrants.
They now want to recruit migrants coming from all over the world into th e U S A rmy because they cannot meet recuitment targets due to the incompetence of the US A rmy command and a political quota system. So why shortage of soldiers? there were circa 60 000 soldiers who refused to take the vaccination jabs - they were put in military jails and treated badly before they were fired by the US Army. Now the us army is pleading with the 60 000 to rejointh e amy adn they are refusing to do that.
There have been no-background checks done on the more than 7 million migrants from 110 countries worldwide and the fear is that there are thosuands of terrorists amongst them. At least that is what Wray - the head of FBI said on that issue. So jsut imagine enrolling terorists into the US army and bsse them in Europe or at army bases in the USA itself..
You think it is only Europe that has a major refugee problem. Umder the Apartheid regime there were already over 8 million foreigners from African countries illegally in South Africa. That figure is now estimated at 20 million out of a total population of 60 million people.. The local Black population hate the migrants and there are constant problms when foreign migrants are attacked by the locals.
No country in the world can just open their bordrs and let people flood into the country. .
ccl
bump
Ja ouMaaik ...................... Trompie's redneck brigade need to topple the Statue of Liberty ?