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FORUM / RUGBY /  100% it's the coaches...they say

100% it's the coaches...they say

Started by Mozart39 REPLIES643 VIEWS· 06 Apr 2015, 15:01
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Apr 2015, 15:01
#1
06 Apr 2015, 15:01#1

That seems to be the theme in most of the rugby press this Monday. We are rather stupid. Imagine trying to outrun the Canes or the Saders. You need structure when you are playing two of the most dangerous backlines on the planet....not an insane me too strategy.

 

Commentators say our problem is basic skills, but as we see with SA players abroad that's not true. Our problem is strategy. Our teams have no idea what they are trying to do out there....apart from getting a penalty and kicking it out to set up a maul.

 

We, like the Irish force lots of phase play inside the 22, with no surprise tactics for getting the ball over the line...with a fear of passing it to the backs, in case we lose 2 metres.

 

We have both issues right now...trickle up and trickle down. By that I mean often a CC/S15 team have the players and strategy to win and that core becomes the basis for the Boks. We saw that in the great Bools teams of 8 or so years ago. That's trickle up.

 

And we should have trickle down...the Boks strategy ought to be a template for our provincial sides....something we haven't seen since White departed.

 

 So we have no trickle up....no feeeder franchise and no self reinforcing trickle down. Strategy and tactics are random.

 

 

But when most fans say our coaches have it wrong it's because we aren't choosing the flavour of the day youngsters....most of whom will fade away without causing a test ripple. Can you believe there are still those who think a carthorse like Esterhuizen or a nothing like Stepfontein are going to be test successes. If we have the stupidest coaches we deserve them because we also have the stupidest fans.

 

 

Things have gone backwards significantly since 2007 and I can't see what is going to change that as so many of our rivals are finding the recruiting door to Fiji et al. We are churning while our rivals are getting stronger. That's coaching, but it's also the nature of things. The imperative to find real competitors and hone a strategy that suits our resources has never been greater.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Apr 2015, 16:19
#2
06 Apr 2015, 16:19#2
 Mozart
An interesting comment - but not indicating that there are very real problems with regard to the management of teams and even the coaching.  The problem si nto as easy as to say "Can you believe there are still those who think a carthorse like Esterhuizen or a nothing like Stepfontein are going to be test successes. If we have the stupidest coaches we deserve them because we also have the stupidest fans."
You always target a few players you dislike in a discussion like this.  But then what about carthorses like Francois Steyn and JP Pietersen?    Are they really producing anything positive and of value anymore?   Their performances thus far this year were disgracefully poor.   Are players like them not the reason why there is such a loud clamour for changing of players?
Then we have the problem of  "The imperative to find real competitors and hone a strategy that suits our resources has never been greater."   You are carrying on about real competitors - but never indicating whom you think are the real competitors.   On the other side what is the value of competitiveness if the competitors cannot physically deliver the goods and also have serious skill deficiencies made worse over the past few years.
What you wrote above sounds theoretically in order - but what about practical execution and of skills and optimum usage of opportunities.   That is where the crux of the matter lies.   For instance - so much is being said about how paramount the issue of breakdown ball protection and recovery is - yet there is constant propaganda on this site of loose forwards who cannot do even the basics in those activities right to save their lives.
There is one other issue here and that is skills development.   Too many of our players have skills deficiencies - but that aspect can be corrected through coaching.   What cannot be corrected is where players cannot read games - take opportunities and create space for their teammates to use.   That has vanished from our game because of usage of players like the Steyns in critical positions - players who are clueless and robotic.      

    
  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Apr 2015, 16:22
#3
06 Apr 2015, 16:22#3
It's hopeless  
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Apr 2015, 16:35
#4
06 Apr 2015, 16:35#4
 Strategy comes from the coach normally in any event.
Another point, what happened to the dangerous blowhard backs in the second half against the Stormers when we finally got a decent pack on the field? Even Gavin Rich has finally realsied you cant field a team of micro light backs at Super 15 level. Alistair, as with his defence only strategy, has failed dismally to understand the game. Quota coach and quota result.
Yes we need competitors I fully agree and hence hopeless cases like Kolisi etc must be shunned.While Mallet, Jake Venter and rassie are sidelined we have Ludeke and Coetzee and possibly Gold  (give him more time? ) coaching. Mind boggles at the stupidity

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Apr 2015, 16:36
#5
06 Apr 2015, 16:36#5
 Lastly no strategy will succeed when your top player base is being eroded and where quotas are in pla ce. Bent refs complete the picture of the dificulties we face.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Apr 2015, 16:37
#6
06 Apr 2015, 16:37#6
What is hopeless?   The fact that you were asked about certain aspects and refuse to go into more detail who you think the competitors are you are talking about?  Or is it hopeless because duds are playing in positions where they should be able to read games and play thinking rugby and they are incapable of doing that?  
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Apr 2015, 16:43
#7
06 Apr 2015, 16:43#7
 Ou maaaikie the rot starts at the top.  We see the Lions with limited resources and the Cheetahs also playing good rugby at times. At the moment our three big unions are all sold short by their coaches etc.
But the sitaution is made worse when you should win and dont because of bent refs. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Apr 2015, 16:56
#8
06 Apr 2015, 16:56#8
 Beeno
I am looking all over the show to see what Kaplan write this week about the refereeing.   I was very amused by what a Sharks supporter wrote in Sharkswold about the game on Saturday - it went like this "Aside from the team everybody from the water boy down to the Sharks management showed and absolute incompetence.
The guy who wrote that very much hit the nail on its head insofar as the management of the Sharks franchise is concerned.   The problem is the Bulls and Stormers franchises are in the same boat - from a management and coaching perspective - the most competent person in the set-up is the water boy.   One can only hope Meyer is not in the same boat.         
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Apr 2015, 17:06
#9
06 Apr 2015, 17:06#9

We need big powerful chaps who love to compete at 10, 12 and 13. The outside centre needs to get deep in defence cutting off the passing lines....we cant afford neutrals. We don't have a pace edge in the inside backs...we need a power edge.

 

One thing I saw in de Allende against the Canes that encouraged me more than his excellent breaks was his desire to take on Nonu. There was an incident early in the game where he had a slight overlap but chose to test the Canes' centres. Not good tactics, but it showed combat instincts.....we need that kind of attitude.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Apr 2015, 17:26
#10
06 Apr 2015, 17:26#10
 Sure - you are getting there Mozart
I think Poillard is our best bet at 10 and De Allende at 12 - the problem is the 13 position.   JP is a carthorse with serious defense deficiencies as well - so he is not an option at all.   I do not think JJ makes the grade either and the rest are all smallish guys - some with good rugby skills, others with glaring deficiencies.  
Maybe the guys to try out are Kobus van Wyk of the Stormers or Jesse Kriel of the Bulls - both has played in the 13 Jersey in the past.   Both are not dummies like some of our centers have been in the past.   I also like what I have seen of Huw Jones this weekend.   His direct opponent was Conrad Smith and he was in fact better than Smith in that game.  A big enough guy to make himself count.    
Looking at De Allende - even though some denies it - he got the upper hand of Williams in the game of the Stormers and the Chiefs and now also against Nonu and Conrad Smith.
         
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Apr 2015, 19:04
#11
06 Apr 2015, 19:04#11
Pollard, de Allende are fine. But we are missing a centre, and the back three. Not enviable given the RWC is this year and the S15 is providing few answers. Kriel  is a possibility at 13 but needs game time.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Apr 2015, 19:18
#12
06 Apr 2015, 19:18#12
 Kriel will not get game time at 13 from the dud Ludeke - that remains a problem.   
I hope that Coetzee has learned a valuable lesson on Saturday with Jones at 13.   De Jongh is a serious handicap at 13 and that is a fact.   I would still think of Jesse Kriel at 13 - he was star quality in that position in the JWC.   I would also like to see more of Jones at 13 - he has the right abilities and attitude.  Comprehensively outplaying Conrad Smith is no mean achievement.                
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
06 Apr 2015, 19:37
#13
06 Apr 2015, 19:37#13
 I haven't seen too many games this year, but from the games I have seen, the Boks are in trouble at 9, 13 and 14. 5 lock is also a bit suspect. I'm sure we will make do with the rest.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Apr 2015, 19:59
#14
06 Apr 2015, 19:59#14
 Draad
Funny enough - I have seen a lot of rugby and I do not see any problem at 5 at all.  D u Toit is the automatic choice and if he is injured  - we have a number of other players that can do the job  without having to fall back on the physically deficient Matfield.
I am also not particularly worried about the scrummie -  Reinach is coming on nicely and he will do the job.   My problem is with the 13 and 14 positions only.   I think the problem is that JP - never a speedster - has lost his pace completely and the defense of Hendricks is about as strong as crinkle paper.   
Do not have the answer as to those two positions as you could see from my re marks above.            
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Apr 2015, 20:03
#15
06 Apr 2015, 20:03#15
Last I checked, Esterhuizen was probably the best of the Sharks players on the day......was massively physical in defence and with ball in hand......trust you to get it hopelessly wrong.
He made min ce meat of Crotty
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
06 Apr 2015, 20:10
#16
06 Apr 2015, 20:10#16
 Mike, Reinach is OK, but no world beater.  Faf is the best of the local lads, but a tad too small.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Apr 2015, 20:14
#17
06 Apr 2015, 20:14#17
What bullshit, Faf is not too small.....he is no smaller than Smith of the AB's who is the best 9 in the game.
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
06 Apr 2015, 20:20
#18
06 Apr 2015, 20:20#18
 "Mice meat ", Saffex ?! 

Sneaky thing, changing it.....I won't mention it in future.....you handsome devil you 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Apr 2015, 15:09
#19
07 Apr 2015, 15:09#19
Ironical that Crotty ended in the team of the week.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Apr 2015, 15:34
#20
07 Apr 2015, 15:34#20
 mozart
That team of the week was the sickest one the 5 journalists came up with in the past year.  They normally have half of the team wrong - here they managed 70%.  The biggest load of BS I have seen for a long time.
Let me remind you of something else.  The top NZ commentators and rugby writers - who also come up with TOW's are involved in the NZ Herald fantasy competition.  One would assume they know something about rugby players and player evaluation, but at this stage I have 300 more points than the highest points of the Rugby writers and  double the number of points of Justin Marshall.   That shows how good the performance evaluation of rugby writers really is and this TOW story is just crap in capital letters.  Only fools will come up with thir findings as gospel.    
Incidentally there were two better performances at 12 than Crotty - Leali'ifano of the Brumbies and De Allende.         
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Apr 2015, 16:53
#21
07 Apr 2015, 16:53#21
You miss the point again....I can't be bothered to explain it to you.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Apr 2015, 17:31
#22
07 Apr 2015, 17:31#22
 There is ZERO to explain in this case in any event.   Your silliness in believing everything written in newspapers as gospel has been exposed long ago.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
07 Apr 2015, 17:37
#23
07 Apr 2015, 17:37#23

clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 16107 RE: 100% it's the coaches...they say
April 07, 2015, 17:31:44  There is ZERO to explain in this case in any event.   Your silliness in believing everything written in newspapers as gospel has been exposed long ago.


  • 0 Likes

................as opposed to seeing a picture online and then "building" a fantasy around it.............?


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Apr 2015, 17:49
#24
07 Apr 2015, 17:49#24
 After starting off quite well this morning Ceradyne hes deteriorated to the Dofdoos level and that in less than 7 hours.   
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
07 Apr 2015, 17:50
#25
07 Apr 2015, 17:50#25
Crotty making the team of the week is a joke.....unless getting smashed by a 20 year old is the criteria.....hell those teams of the week had Pockock at 7 ahead of Schalk and Thrush ahead of Etzebeth at 4 in them......enough said.  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Apr 2015, 18:11
#26
07 Apr 2015, 18:11#26

Okay here are Esterhosen's stats:

 

CEsterhuizen0/000/2/7140001 10/10/020/0

 

Here are Crotty's stats:

 

CCrotty1/053/17/8572320 7/10/010/0

 

Crotty makes 2 clean breaks, beats 3 tacklers, gets a try assist, and offloads twice. He gains 57 metres. Esterhosen loses the ball once, beats no tackles, makes no clean breaks....gains 14 metres, but is penalized twice for a negative 70 metres. So his net yardage is minus 56.

 

Plus 57 vs minus 56! Boy those journalists really had that one wrong.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
07 Apr 2015, 18:29
#27
07 Apr 2015, 18:29#27

Ummmm.......if Esterhuizen never broke any tackles given he smashed Crotty out of the way on at least 3 occasions.......it tells us a lot about those stats.

 

I would expect Crotty to have gained more metres and beaten defenders......look at the score line......helloooooooooooooooooooo

 

Was Crotty good enough to make TOW......not even close. Esterhuizen made him look like a little boy.  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Apr 2015, 22:11
#28
07 Apr 2015, 22:11#28
Esterhosen looked best when he was on the flank......this young chap wont be dropped he'll be taken to the knackers yard. Pure carthorse.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
07 Apr 2015, 22:39
#29
07 Apr 2015, 22:39#29
 clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 16112 RE: 100% it's the coaches...they say
April 07, 2015, 17:49:14  After starting off quite well this morning Ceradyne hes deteriorated to the Dofdoos level and that in less than 7 hours.   


  • 0 Likes

Shame. Poor ou Maaikie. The nasty Ceradyne has stepped on his toes again.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Apr 2015, 22:46
#30
07 Apr 2015, 22:46#30
Hehehe  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Apr 2015, 01:57
#31
08 Apr 2015, 01:57#31
 The argument here has been side-tracked again by Mozart and  Daves argument about Esterhuizen.   Fact is Mozart in his normal way of believing as fact every utterance of a journalist or journalists  if it ties in with his arguments on issues is the gist of the matter.
I think that Esterhuizen never was in the picture insofar as the so-called TOW is concerned - the players whom was were Crotty, Leali'ifano and De Allende.   So lets look at the stats of those three players in the first instance:-
Crotty1/053/17/85723207/10/010/0
Leali'ifano1/0150/8/101925028/00/010/0
de Allende0/001/10/166818105/10/010/0
Factually aside from the scoring of the tries by each of Crotty and Leali'ifano, the question remains whom of the three h ad the biggest impact on the performance of their sides in the three matches concerned.  
In essence from a point scoring situation Leali'ifano had the biggest impact scoring 15 of his sides 20 points.   Crotty scored  5 of his sides 52 points.   From the strength in ball carries and major impact on the game as a whole is concerned De Allende beat the other two by some distance.  In the latter regard the opposition strength must also be borne in mind:-
*   Lweali'ifano was opposed by a rather average and lesser-known Super 15 level no 12 center and the same category no 13 center.
*   Crotty was  opposed by a newbie with his first starting game at 12 and the woeful Murray at 13
*   De Allende was opposed by two proven All Black internationals - Nonu at 12 and Conrad Smith at 13
The above are facts that should be considered by Journalists when they make their calls on performances but never are.  That is what makes journalist assessments of rugby player performances so ridiculous.      

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
08 Apr 2015, 02:12
#32
08 Apr 2015, 02:12#32
 You missed the fact that de Allende's missed tackle was 15 metres from the Canes line and led directly to a try...so he is disqualified. Crotty  deserved the award.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Apr 2015, 02:22
#33
08 Apr 2015, 02:22#33
 Balls - the missed tackle of De Allende was in the Hurricanes 22 not 15 meters from their tryline - so you are talking utter tripe once again.   If you looked at the match carefully - you would not end up talking tripe AGAIN .     
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
08 Apr 2015, 05:08
#34
08 Apr 2015, 05:08#34
I write:
"You missed the fact that de Allende's missed tackle was 15 metres from the Canes line"
You write:
" the missed tackle was in the Hurricanes 22 not 15 meters from their try line"
Here's the thing, 15 metres from their try line is inside their 22. Epic stupidity.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Apr 2015, 08:11
#35
08 Apr 2015, 08:11#35
 Amazing.  The tryline of the Hurricanes is after the Springboks 22 - dofdoos.  That was more than 75 meters away from the place where De Allende missed that tackle.   Not "15 metres from the Canes line".
  
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
08 Apr 2015, 09:47
#36
08 Apr 2015, 09:47#36
 Ohhhhh dear. The lack of understanding normal rugby jargon........


"They were inside the 22m area of team X..............." This means that they were somewhere between the goal line of team X and their 22m line. By implication, this would mean that if they were 15 metres from the goal line of team X, they were also with in the 22m line of team X.


Had they been further than 22m away from the goal line of team X, they would have been outside of their 22m line.


Remember to get the number.
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
08 Apr 2015, 10:28
#37
08 Apr 2015, 10:28#37
Hahahaha! And it all started so nicely!!
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
08 Apr 2015, 14:43
#38
08 Apr 2015, 14:43#38
It's not the fact that Moronic can be so wrong that is stunning. It's the fact that he can be so belligerently, persistently wrong. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Apr 2015, 15:51
#39
08 Apr 2015, 15:51#39
 You still do not know where the tryline of teams is - what a farce.   But then your knowledge of rugby is equal to zero so I am not surprised at all.     
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
08 Apr 2015, 17:42
#40
08 Apr 2015, 17:42#40
 Explain the difference between "inside their 22m" and "outside their 22m", ou CleverTrevor. I will try assist you by giving you some examples that you can use.


Explain where on the field these situations took place, in your opinion.

  1. "TRY, WASPS, HELU! 25-18. Wasps are on the attack deep inside Toulon's 22 after another sniping break from Simpson!.........."
  2. "Wasps are under pressure at a scrum inside their 22 but Guy Thompson............"
  3. "It's all Wasps at the moment! Joe Simpson makes a sniping break and is soon inside Toulon's 22 where he is brought to ground by Matt Giteau. Delon Armitage does well to win a turnover which eases the pressure on the hosts."
  4. "The same rule applies if the ball is moved (passed, knocked, kicked or run) back inside the 22 by a player from the same team as the kicker."
  5. "Once a tackle, scrum, lineout, ruck or maul occurs inside the 22 or the ball is moved there by the opposition a player can kick it directly into touch with the lineout forming where the ball crossed the sideline."
  6. "If the ball is kicked directly (does not bounce first) over the sideline by a team member who is outside his 22 metre line the lineout is formed on the sideline perpendicular to where that player kicked it."




— END OF THREAD —

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