a call to saru....ban the selection of overseas based sa players

we have seen the effects of picking overseas based players for the boks....its created a wormhole of players leaving our shores and as a net result our local super rugby sides are suffering.
if saru wants to build a strong local player base we need to make the hard calls now and stop the selection of overseas based players totally. we cannot compete in the long run if this is the case and the cheap excuses about money ext is not valid as the money has always been there in the past.
time to put on the big boy pants saru make the right call before its too late

CM
I have sympathy with your points of view.   Most of the NH club players are under a different coaching regime and coached to suot club requirements,  That coaching approach has been thoroughly discredited during the current WC.  As a result the players ends up with contradictory cochig situations where it is not possible to reconcile the two entirely different playing srules of the players and we end op wioith a situation that players cannot execute even basic attacking moves.  
The coach has a week to bring the NG club players on board - a virtual impossibility,    

With the central contracting system, something like this may come into effect

 A call to Muncher, don't be stupid. We need to pick the best team, regardless of where they play...sure, if its a close call, go for the local lad, but why limit our options?

 Banning overseas players from playing for the Boks will not change SA's local coaching issues, the political interference, the crap deal of SA in the SANZAR set-up, etc. Note that I do not blame SANZAR for SA's crap deal in the set-up. That "honour" falls squarely on the soldiers of Jurie Roux, et al, as well as Andy Marinos who was responsible for our initial slide in the SANZAR set-up.

Nope...wont matter a tinkers damn. Players will follow  the money. Negotiate better international windows, tie up key players....keep all the players connected via good communication.

ive said time and time again that they should only pick SA based players, it wont stop all the players from leaving, but it will stop the hemorrhaging which has made the SA spXV teams a joke no one finds funny.

u always hear of the depth that SA has, but those on top dont have any faith in that depth.

i understand now why meyer wouldnt say anything about the selections of overseas players, as he was doing everything he could to bring back the bulls old guard into the Boks squad.
if there is a new Bok coach, hopefully he sees some sense and cuts of those plying their trades overseas.

there is a chance here for the new guy if there is one to bargin with the clubs about player management.
for example the Bok coach gives the clubs a list of names of players he wants to have a break during the spXV season, and to be exempt from currie cup duties.
in return, he could assure those clubs his Bok selections will only be from players based in SA.

 At the very least you may well get those for whom the honour of wearing that jersey for their country and mates is the main consideration .

draad if you cannot see the effect this policy has on our local teams then my friend i am afraid you are as one eyed as they come.....players leaving our shores are getting younger and younger why you ask ????? is there suddenly more money for them ??? 
no....its more a fact whey would a player want to stay if they can apply there trade overseas and play for the boks at the same time...have your toast buttered on both sides is a players wet dream.
the bok jersey has a lot more value then money and even before meyer and the his crew of merry men decided to open the flood gates. 
nh standards are far below our sh standards and player management is out of sync as nh plays a lot more games.
so the players we do receive from the clubs are already over the qouta of games and conditioning wise already a little bit underdone.
as mike said the coach has a few weeks to look at them and take it from there. 
nothing about the arrangement makes sense as well this overseas policy cheapens the bok jersey in my view. 
yes we need our strongest possible team at all times i totally agree but this policy does more damage than good to not only the boks but to even more so our local teams. development of the players starts at the local level and when your local core players dont get that exposure on a consistent basis those that are locally based will never develop at the same rate as they should be.
its a well known fact that to have a strong national side you need to have a very strong local pool of players. this has always been the case for us but under meyers reign the amount of players leaving our shores has increasd 10 fold.
we wont be competitve for about a year or 2 but the long term benefits for sa rugby in general would be massive. i have no issue with a 30 year old player looking for go overseas and earning extra money but when players are 23 odd and leaving its a massive massive worry for sa rugby
this narrow minded approach of just bending over and accepting a flawed policy is the worst possible way to deal with this situation

 Muncher, I was pulling your socks a bit, but I also feel that an outright ban of overseas players is not the way either. But something needs to be done.Put some restrictions in place to keep players here longer, but don't just shut the door completely.

 A more hair brained idea would be difficult to find!About half or professional rugby players are overseas and increasingly th younger ones. The amounts they earn overseas are astronomical and any player with any financial acumen will obviously try to get an overseas place. Hence the departure of Kitshoff, jaque Du Plessis, Wllemse etc. 
Nothing will stop this exodus with the rand around 20.5 pounds etc. Don't be surprised if more top top talent doesn't go.
Pick on merit oaks and that's the best you can do.
Away with ou saSUE trying to further weaken the Boks. This oak is also a supporters of wee matfiled. Enough said!

 haha good stuff draad
beeno with all due respect the specture of economical benefit has always been there. its not a excuse but reading between the lines it seems you like saru has all but given up on trying to keep the players. the norm has always been the older players leaving but since the flood gates has been opened its getting worse and worse. 
yes we cannot compete but saru has no piece of bargaining chip that nobody else has. the springbok jersey. every kid's dream and by allowing overseas based players to get the once in a life time chance is to me the biggest mistake meyer and saru could have made.
i would at most pick overseas if there is a extreme case of talent in one area but even then it would be under certain conditions that the player needs to be playing in sa beforehand.
sasue has very very valid points and one can only have a look at unions like the ab and wallies that has the same threat hanging over there players only difference being they made the right call and they a reaping the benefits of that decision

 There are a hundred+, if not 200+ SA players, playing abroad. Banning overseas players from playing for the Boks would have stopped all of them from playing abroad............... yes?

 The issue is viewed purely from the financial side - not form the practical impact it has on rugby played by the Springboks.   Of the 8 foreign club members most were not up to standard and should never have been in the squad.
They are coached by the club coaches to play a brand of rugby that has been totally discredited in the present WV tournament - come back to SA and then Meyer has to incorporate him into the team - leaving SA with a totally flawed game plan environment. The polyglot the Springbok team is at present is just a recipe for disaster.
If players want to play overseas - they should do so - but they should realize that there future in SA Rugby is gone.  We have a huge player pool in SA and very fgew of them is really of good enough quality at present to make a real input into advancement of Springbok rugby.  In any event most o f the better players are way past their best and in the category of players we really can do without.      

 I'd say to be considered for the Boks when playing abroad, you must at least 50 SR caps for an SA franchise and 10 Bok starts in tests. Then you can be considered to help out, if there is clearly no one better.....well something along those lines anyway. That would sink Kitsie's ambition, which would be sad.

 You cannot hold someone ransom with a carrot like maybe, perhaps, if you are lucky, you might have a shot at playing for the Boks as opposed to.... "Here mate. have a contract for three years where you can earn the equivalent of R5m to R12m plus endorsements, etc for three years guaranteed. No quotas, no political selections, no flack from some people who calls themselves supporters, etc. Just do your part on the training field and on match-day and the club will see to the rest. Enjoy the ride. 

 Beeno with all due respect the specture of economical benefit has always been there.

What muddled thinking!! The Rand has declined dramatically over the past ten years.Get a grip Muncher!!!

Ceradunce
As per normal no performance requirement and a bench player at Stade Francais qualifies automatically as an example.   I am opposed to the concept as applied to date since there is no merit selections - only reputation selections.
Of the 8 foreign club players in the squad
*   two were used for about 20 minutes each in one match - with no visible improvement or impact in the games played  (Steyn and Brits);
*   Two were failures (Kirchner and Pienaar);
*   Four were barely satisfactory with some serious question marks about aspects of their performances.
Were thy really needed if the above was taken into account?  The answer is NO - the locals would not have been worse than they were.  
The questions remains -
*   How can their present performances evaluated;*   What impact does their coaching have and will they fit into the Springbok coaching environment; and*   Will there presence really have on the team performance-wsie
Over the last 14 months not a single foreign contract player actually pro\bed that they deserve selection.  Matter of fact most was liabilities more than assets in the team.    So what difference would they make anyway and why should they be selected ?    

 You are missing the point, ou Sopdoos. Will the banning of overseas players stop the exodus of players... yes or no? I have said it before. You either include overseas players or you impose a total ban of including overseas players. No exceptions to the rule. The reason is simple. Your "questions/issues" that you have raised apply to all overseas players, including those who have played x amount of games for the  Boks or x amount of Super Rugby games, like Draad has suggested. Doing that is having your bread buttered on both sides. Create reasons for players to want to play in SA rather than abroad, instead of forcing them to play in SA . You cannot hold them at ransom. 

 I am not interested in exodus of players - stupid.  Players who are clever would make sure they play for the Springboks before departure in any event - it will increase4 their earning power.  
The question has zero to do with exodus and everything to do with performance and squad-building.  The rest of your talk about holding players at ransom is BS in capital letters - nobody does that - they are free to go after completing their contracts in SA, but they must know that departure would cost them potential Springbok selection - end of story.
Fact is - I cannot see at present any advantage at playing foreign - based players at all.   The quality of the players included in the recent RWC squad was mediocre and not above what local players can produce.    There may have been some arguments to select Habana immediately after departure for Toulon, but he was in the amingog ordinary in the WC and the deterioration will just go further as time goes by.  The only other foreign-based player I supported was Louw - but even he is easily replace able by better local players at present.
There is NO performance justification for selection of any foreign-based players at present.       

You probably haven't read the opening post, p@ephol, and you are too hasty to put your own stamp on the thread, as usual. Let me repeat the opening post and  let's  hope it does not complicate things too much for you.
a call to saru....ban the selection of overseas based sa players
November 01, 2015, 18:36:26

we have seen the effects of picking overseas based players for the boks....its created a wormhole of players leaving our shores and as a net result our local super rugby sides are suffering.

if saru wants to build a strong local player base we need to make the hard calls now and stop the selection of overseas based players totally. we cannot compete in the long run if this is the case and the cheap excuses about money ext is not valid as the money has always been there in the past.
time to put on the big boy pants saru make the right call before its too late

The OP has eluded that the selection of overseas players has created a "wormhole of players leaving our shores". That is the issue under discussion. Not the performance of overseas based players in the 2015 RWC. 
My opinion is that banning the selection of overseas players will not put a stop to the outflow of overseas players. It is also my opinion that the selection of overseas players for the Boks  is one of the minor reasons why players leave to play abroad. It goes way beyond that.

Age of professionalism, its an unreasonable request of the players. Everyone in the game treats players like commodities - especially the fans, yet somehow the players are supposed to be held to a higher standard of national loyalty and pride 
No different than telling a young varsity graduate who gets an overseas job offer paying him 10X as much money that his South African citizenship is going to be revoked until he comes back and works in the country.

Simplistic sentimental twaddle. Without JP, Habana, F du P, Louw and others we would have been even less competitive.  

Mozart
Lets face facts and be honest about the payers mentioned:-
*   JP did squat in all matches bar one - where he did score tries for the rest he was bog-ordinary = any otyher wing worth his salt would have scored the tries he scored in that match;
*   Habana scored three tries against the USA B team and did squat in the other matches - at times he was poor and at times barely acceptable;
*    The hype about Du Preez was ear-splitting - he started of being better than the sh!t-poor Pienaar, but wiuth each succeeding fame his performances deteriorated until he was on par with Pienaar in the semi-final against the AB's.  There can be no reason to rate his performance in the semi as sub-par even in the newspapers he was given a generous 5/10 - he was in fact no better than Pienaar was;
*   Louw showed something in one game - nothing in the rest and that is confirmed by his stats.  His low tackle stats confirmed that he was not an op0en-sider's  backside bar in one game.  
How does par or sub-par performance contribute to competitiveness?  I would like to know about that statement as it seems to me that as so often in your case it represents rank rugby idiocy.    

I'm a strong believer that picking overseas-based players to represent the Springboks weakens South African rugby.
I don't care how many tests anyone has played or what a great player he's been for us in the past . . . if he's not playing in the S15 or the Currie Cup the n he should not be eligible for the Springboks.

 How and why does it weaken South African rugby?

 ceradyne the local unions suffer due to a outflux of players....that has a ripple effect on the standards of the players coming through as well no coach can build a strong core of players when there is players leaving and coming in all the time. 
as well picking overseas based players for the bok team cheapens the jersey and send a message to local players that you have to compete for a national spot against a bloke that is not even on the same continent as you.
we need to recapture the culture that local players have something to play for. the overseas based pie chuckers like louw and co dont contribute anything to sa rugby when they play overseas.
the bok jersey is a big magnet for keeping young player here to try and be part of the great history of sa rugby.

 ceradyne
in regards to a previous post if you look at the numbers the amount of player we lost the past 5 years has been on the increase and many more so and i for one firmly believe its due to meyers policy of picking overseas based players.
where in the past the players where hesitant to go that route in hopes of being picked for the boks we now have the situation where there its open season. 
the spectre of massive overseas based contracts where always there but its no accident that the outpoor of players has just turned our unions into turnstiles for nh clubs
look at the hard facts then you decide

 The current World Cup holders won't have a bar of players who aren't located in the country. Just saying.

 @CM. I have no doubt about the fact that the exodus of players have an adverse effect on local rugby. I am 100% in agreement with you on that point. I am just not as convinced as you that it has all to do with the selection of overseas players for the Bok team. 
I also do not agree that the selection of overseas players cheapens the Bok jersey either. The merit of overseas players in the RWC can be debated till doomsday but I cannot see how it can cheapen the jersey. On the contrary, I think it would cheapen the jersey more of the best player is denied a spot just because he is not playing in SA. 
What I am saying is that it could well happen that the second best player finds himself in the team because the best is not allowed in the team. Much like a quota selection where the second best find himself in the team because the best do not have the correct skin colour, don't you think?