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FORUM / RUGBY /  Alan Zondagh's suggestions for law changes

Alan Zondagh's suggestions for law changes

Started by clevermike20 REPLIES538 VIEWS· 22 Apr 2015, 21:16
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2015, 21:16
#1
22 Apr 2015, 21:16#1

The following from Rugby 365:-


Alan Zondagh, who played top rugby, has coached top rugby in his long career and now runs a Rugby Performance Centre, is one of the game's great thinkers.

He has made some suggestions for law changes which could break the cycle of stodgy PREDICTABILITY plaguing the game.  The opinions are his own but are worthy of thought and comment.

It is time for some positive changes to rugby.   What is wrong with the current game? “If it ain’t broke, don't fix it”: but modern rugby needs a good overhaul.   It -

1. is slow and pedantic.

2. is boring to watch.

3. over-emphasises size and power (which makes it robot-like).
4. wastes too much action time (by players and TMO referrals).
5. is obsessed with crossing the advantage line.
6. is spoiled by senseless kicking.
7. rates defence and collisions higher than scoring tries.
8. over-emphasises setting-up phases and recycling the ball.
9. has become “one-up rugby” (a one-or-two-pass game). More than 80% of play falls in this category.
10. is marred by players too easily going to ground. They do not to play rugby on their feet and do not keep the ball in the air as long as possible.
11. is programmed rather than coached. (Good coaching develops skilful, intelligent players, whereas programming produces robots.)
12. does not encourage players to play into space. And some coaches complain that the rugby field is too narrow.
13. teaches players to play the way they were programmed. It is all about structures and maps. They do not play according to what they see in front of them.
14. is spoiled by players’ poor decision making. This includes supporting players – which limits available attacking OPTIONS.
15. lacks creativity on attack. The Positioning of players on attack is poor – no depth.

A changed, improved game should promote -

1. try-scoring

2. fast moving action
3. intelligent and skilful execution
4. good decision making
5. keen and fair CONTESTING in all aspects of the game
6. more simplified game for players, referees and spectators
This can be achieved by ...
1. revising the laws of the game.
2. coaches and players changing their “attitude to playing”.
3. using all the different facets of the game at the right time, but not the same thing all the time with the emphasis on what works for a specific team.
4. Showing no mercy and penalising players who infringe the laws of the game.

Coaching and refereeing considerations

Improving attacking opportunities

Defence structures have improved to such an extent over the past decade that coaches are convinced that it is impossible to break them down. This is partly true, but this should challenge teams to find solutions to disrupt the defence structures of their opponents.

For teams to have scope for attacking properly, it is important that referees and touch judges strictly apply the laws regarding the following:

• defenders must remain behind the last player’s feet at rucks and mauls.

• loose-forwards must bind correctly at scrums and stay bound until the ball is out.
• defenders at line-outs must not cross the 15m-line before the line-out ends.
• off-side “chasers” should not move forward after an up-field kick until they are put on-side. The defending team needs time and space to counter attack.
• tacklers must immediately release the ball carrier when they are on the ground.
• the ball-carrier must place the ball immediately after a tackle.
• players must not dive into static rucks or go off their feet in the tackle area.

Slowing down of the game

1. When play moves into the 22m area (red zone) players go down with an “injury”. It is part of the tactics of many teams.
2. Players faking injuries has become an art form. Possible solution: take the injured player off immediately to nearest touch line – play with 14 men – and allow two minutes to make a decision to replace player or not. But, in the meantime, the game should continue.
3. Assistants running onto the field. (Players fake injury to receive coaching instructions.)
4. Players throwing the ball away at penalties. (This takes away the quick-tap OPTION.)
5. Players deliberately moving slowly to line-outs. (A possible solution: the ball should be thrown into the line-out with-in 10 seconds, otherwise a free kick will be awarded to the defending side.)
6. Setting up the scrum. There are long delays just to bind and get ready. (A possible solution: limit preparation time to 10 seconds, otherwise a free kick is awarded against the side causing the delay.)
7. Teams are milking the laws at the scrum, which leads to unnecessary resets, penalties, and free kicks.
8. Delays in tackle situations when the tackler does not immediately release the ball carrier or the tackled player does not place the ball immediately.
9. Changing of substitutes. Usually the last 20 minutes of a match is continuously interrupted by players moving on and off the field.
10. TMO decisions. These are now used for just about every decision: too many stoppages have resulted from this new technology. A solution to this problem has to be found.
11. Captains’ discussions with referees when a call is against their team. It is all part of slowing down the game. One never sees captains asking referees why they were given a penalty in their favour.

Refereeing matters

here is too much talking. Players (especially at professional level) should learn the laws of the game. This is the case with all other sports. Why is rugby different? Rugby players are certainly not less intelligent than competitors in other sports.

For example, is it necessary for the referee to shout:
Get onside! Hands off! Stay – don't run!
Roll away! Release the ball Etc… Etc… Etc…

Perhaps the referee should say only the following:
“Tackle” “Ruck” “Maul” “Advantage” “Ball out” or “Play” (at scrums, rucks and mauls)

Laws that need urgent attention

The Scrum

Currently, the scrum is a contentious issue. Too much time is spent on getting it going and making sure the scrum phase actually takes place without it collapsing, or ends up in a penalty or a reset.

The number of resets is unacceptable, and the current laws, referees, and players are to be blamed for the present poor state of this important phase of rugby.

The scrum is one of the best platforms to launch an attack.

The following more simplified scrum procedures could be considered:

1. The referee indicates the mark for the scrum.
2. Ten seconds are allowed for setting up and throwing in the ball. If it is not completed within 10 seconds, the defending team gets the throw-in.
3. If the defending team delays the put-in, a free kick is awarded to the attacking team. They can then decide if they want another scrum, a line-out opposite the mark, or a tap kick, or a kick for touch (the defending side to throw in the ball).
4. The attacking team’s hooker stands with one foot on the mark and then binds with his pack.
5. The referee then indicates the distance for the defending team with his hand: the prop puts his shoulder against the referee’s hand.
6. The scrumhalf prepares to throw the ball into the scrum.
7. The referee says “crouch” and the packs go into a squatting, ready to make contact and bind, position.
8. The attacking hooker shouts “set” and both packs bind and engage.
9. The scrum half throws in the ball (no call by the referee) (Note: the scrum half may immediately throw in the ball, or pause for a moment, waiting for a situation that suits his team.)
10. Scrumhalf must throw the ball in straight.
11. When they slip their grip, props should be allowed to place their outside hand on the ground to steady themselves or on the outside leg to prevent the collapse. (It is difficult for props to bind on the jerseys because of the type of fabric they are made of.)
12. When a scrum collapses, the next scrum is formed on the same spot. All the props must have their outside foot forward to prevent another collapse.

13. A team may wheel the scrum (up to 90 degrees) as long as it does not collapse. This is an important part of effective attacking from a scrum.
14. Infringements in the scrum should be penalised when …
• the ball is not put in straight – free kick
• players are not staying bound until the ball is out – free kick
• a team moves backwards on the push and stands up – free kick
• a front row causes a collapse – free kick
• a hooker strikes early (foot-up) – free kick

Note: Any infringement at the same scrum (second time) results in a penalty kick.

The Maul

Presently the maul is not a fair competition. The following changes could be considered:
1 Defenders should be permitted to collapse a maul. (I have never seen an injury in a maul in 36 years of coaching.)
2 When the ball reaches the player at the back of the maul the referee calls “play!” or “ball out” which means the ball is out and defenders can move up on defence or tackle the ball carrier.
3 The law of kicking for touch after being awarded a penalty kick, should change. A team should not get (1) a penalty, (2) kick for touch (gaining territory), and, in addition, (3) gets the throw-in. Too many BONUSES! The opposition should throw in the ball at the ensuing line-out.
4 When a team is awarded a penalty kick, they may opt for a line-out opposite the mark on the nearest touchline.

The Tackle and Ruck

 After a tackle (ball carrier and tackler on the ground with the ball) there should immediately be off-side lines. All arriving players must enter through the gate – No third player is needed to form off-side lines.
2 A tackler must roll away immediately or get onto his feet behind the off-side line.
3 Tackled players must place the ball immediately. They are out of play while on the ground.
4 The tackler and ball carrier cannot take part in the tackled area to play the ball.
5 Players arriving must do so through the gate – parallel to the touchline.
6 As soon as a 3rd player arrives, the “ruck” is formed. The referee will call “ruck”
7 Players may use their hands as long as they are on their feet – this should promote CONTESTING for possession, and commit more players to the ruck area. However, when they are off their feet: NO Hands, NO play.
8 Arriving players (attackers and defenders alike) going off their feet at the tackle area should be penalised. This will minimise the ferocity of the cleaning and taking away of players.
8. Only players who have their hands in the ruck can be CLEANED OFF the ball. Cleaners may not use their shoulders or head. They may use only their arms (similar to a tackle). Also, they should not be allowed to go off their feet in the tackle area or dive onto static players. (The laws do not allow a player to dive onto a player retrieving the ball on the ground. Then, why allow this in static rucks? The same law should apply.)
9. Apply the ”use-it-or-lose-it” principle at rucks and mauls. If a team takes the ball in and it does not emerge, then the scrum will go to the defending team. The attacking side has more OPTIONS than the defending side. So, they must try and keep the ball alive. (Note: Teams playing the clock down are not permitted to use supporting players to seal off the defence to protect the ball. Players supporting the ball carrier must not go off their feet or lie on top of the ball carrier, or go off their feet on the opposition's side of the ball carrier. A penalty kick should immediately be awarded against them.)

Yellow/Red cards and professional fouls

We cannot continue to play rugby with all the yellow cards currently being dished out. It does not make sense that professional players competing in important matches have to spend ten minutes off the field, for example, not rolling away in time or for holding onto the ball too long. This has become a ridiculous situation. Teams are using the current yellow card system to play for penalties (e.g., at the scrum or maul) and WIN games by getting opponents sent off the field.

The following changes are proposed:

1. Yellow card (10 minutes off the field) only for “dangerous play” i.e. actions that do not fall under “foul play”. Yellow card offence stays with the player. Second yellow card offence turns into a red card whenever that may be.
2. Red card (permanently off the field) only for “foul play”.
3. Professional penalty (4 points). Awarded only in 22m-area (red zone) for the attacking team. Any penalty awarded to the attacking team in the 22m-area is a 4-point penalty, but it has to be kicked within the 22m-area.
Note: This should deter defending teams from transgressing in the red zone.
line-out
The line-out should be like the scrum where all the forwards are locked in. In other words, seven players per side must form part of the line-out.
1 line-out players (7 players) must take up their positions between the 5m and 15m lines.
2 A team has 10 seconds to throw in the ball.
3 The defending hooker must remain in the 5m area until the line-out ends.
4 Both number 9s must be positioned next to the line-out and must remain within the 15m area until the line-out ends.

These changes will do away with a few laws currently applicable to the line-out. However, the line-out will remain an important competitive part of the game. The CONTEST will be backs vs. backs and should create innovative attacking options.
Ball out of scrum/ruck

Currently the referee will call “use it!” and the No. 9 is given five seconds to do so. This call should be changed to “Play” or “Ball-out” and play must continue immediately. This will mean the ball is out (so defending players can move up). The No. 9 must immediately play the ball.

Advantage

The referee should allow only five seconds for the non-infringing team to gain advantage, before returning to the original infringement.
If a team is unable to score within five seconds then the advantage must be cancelled. Referees allow teams to play through as many as 4 to 6 phases and then go back to original penalty. All that play for nothing.

Referees should refrain from calling “advantage over!”

It should be a question of either an advantage to score or to be awarded a penalty kick. The attacking side should decide what they want to do.

A four-quarter game

Rugby has become a high-intensity game and it is appropriate that playing time is split into four quarters.

During the breaks between quarters, the following can happen:

1 Five-minute on-field strategy breaks for coaches (after the first 20 minutes of play in the first half and after 20 minutes into the second half).
2 Water break for the players during this time. Water carriers should not be permitted on field at other times in between the official breaks.
3 Substitutions (not injury-related replacements) can be made only in the two strategy breaks and at the half-time break (in other words, no substitutions should take place after the last 20 minute break). Only injured players can be replaced. (However, it is expected that teams will fake injuries to try bending this law.)

The above procedures will not only provide more structure and discipline during the match, but they will also offer the media with more advertising time.

Injuries

f there is an injury, ONLY the referees and their touch judges can call a doctor or physiotherapist onto the field. They can do their initial assessment (30 seconds) and, if necessary, call for a stretcher, cart, etc.

No one else allowed on the field-of-play.

The game can go on.

1 The referee indicates to the doctor or physiotherapist to come onto the field.
2 The injured player is moved to the nearest touchline to be assessed. They get two minutes to make an assessment to replace the injured player or to return him/her onto the field.
3 The game carries on immediately after the 30 seconds. It means that a team may have to cope with only 14 players for a while.
Fitness is an important part of rugby and coaches can make their teams fitter and recover more quickly than their opposition. With all the unnecessary stoppages, it is impossible to play a fast game and test one's opposition.

Medical staff, water carriers, and coaching consultants

Boxes (2m x 2m) should be provided, situated in the playing enclosure as follows:

Two on the 10m line on each side for the two medical team doctors and coaches.
Two on each side of the 22m lines (four in total) for the water carriers and physiotherapists).
Each team will have one box on the attacking 22m and one on the defending 22m on opposite sides of the field
Players can go to the side of the field to get water if they are thirsty during one of the 20 minute plays. No water carriers are allowed on the field of play.

The following are examples of regular scenarios at matches:

1 As many as eight to twelve persons running onto the field during a stoppage.
2 Water carriers pushing touch judges out of the way to deliver messages to players.
3 Water carriers running onto the field even when there is no stoppage.

This situation has degenerated into a circus and nothing is being done to stop it. This does not happen in other professional sports.

The field-of-play is for the 30 players and the referee: a total of 31 people, and no more.

Coaching should take place at practice sessions and during official breaks – not when official games are in progress. Why should water carriers wear electronic communication equipment?

Also, the ball boys can bring kicking tees onto the field. It is not necessary for a kicking coach or a defensive coach to perform this chore.

Concluding considerations

1. Charging down conversions is waste of time and should be omitted from the laws of the game.
2. A quick tap penalty is taken at own risk. No 10m rule should therefore apply. It should be the same as for quick throw in from touch. You do it because you see an opportunity and not to milk a penalty. If you want 10m at the penalty then wait for the opposition to fall back 10 metres.
3. Players shouting or swearing at the referee in reaction to an infringement, should be penalised immediately. And, if this continues, a team warning should be issued. The next guilty player will spend 10 minutes (yellow card) on the side of the field. Only the captain is allowed to talk to the referee. (Young players see this type of behaviour by professional players and follow their example. This shows a lack of discipline and respect for the game of rugby.)

Conclusion
We all know that it will not be easy to make major changes to the current laws of the game, but something will have to be done, sooner than later, otherwise our game will suffer in the long run.

Hopefully, some of the above thoughts will start the conversation for the better.

Rugby is our game…

COMMENTS 

So there are more experts thinking that 

*    PREDICTABILITY kills the games of Rugby

*   that players selected only on the basis of size and without skills should not be selected;

*   That coaches should enhance the skills of players through coaching; 

*   There are too much emphasis on game plans that turns players into robots.

The above contains suggestions that needs serious consideration and comments from members.  I will also comment on the issue over the next two weeks dealing with specific issues raised.    


OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
22 Apr 2015, 22:35
#2
22 Apr 2015, 22:35#2
Mike,
Everyone would agree that running, open rugby is more entertaining. Hence the appeal of 7's. No one on the board would say that we should select on size only, regardless of skill, or that coaches should not enhance a players skill.
But the premise of the article was to bring a new set of rules to the game that would promote an open running game and deter coaches from using a defensive-minded structured game that employs tactical kicking because he acknowledges that the current set of rules means that type of defensive structured game is successful, especially with the way defenses have evolved over the past few years.
It is the reason it is the type of game plan the Boks and Saffa S15 should use - we can be the best in the world at it and when faced with opponents who have superior athletes in the strike positions and (AUS/NZ) whose running game is elite it is the most successful way to win. I wouldn't be opposed to rule changes that would change that truth but it would benefit AUS/NZ more than anyone.
Either way, he fails to do that - in fact while I like many of his suggestions, most do not handicap defenses or encourage running rugby enough to promote the type of game he is looking for but instead help the defense in my mind:
  1. Hands in the ruck as long as you're on your feet - that will just slow the ball down even more
  2. Yellow and red cards for dangerous play only - defenders are already cynical enough, this will only promote more of it. A kick for a four point penalty will mean nothing (especially at a hard angle like he suggests) when the cynical act can prevent seven points. No team plays to try to get the other team yellow carded either - thats ridiculous
  3. Cleaners have to stay on their feet - this will again do nothing but slow down recycle ball, stifling attack. Would be next to impossible to clean out most defensive players in a halfway decent body position.
  4. No 10m on a quick tap - his suggestion is that the scrumhalf wait until defenders are 10m before tapping. That would defeat the purpose of a quick tap and it is a great source of improvisation at this time.
  5. Penalties - teams should not be able to get both territory gain from a kick to touch and the throw-in, they should choose one - again, this hurts the attacking team, helps the defense.

There have to be better ideas out there then this. He addresses a lot of pet peeves which is nice and all but doesn't change the rules in a way that would penalize teams that use the type of rugby he deplores. 
I'm not sure that there is a lot that can be done without changing the way the game looks and feels and making it look closer to something like rugby league. 
It could be argued that the improvement in player fitness, strength and quickness has benefitted the defensive side of the ball more than any other aspect of rugby. Defensive structures are also much easier to coach and drill than attack. Rugby looks the way it does now because it works and the laws allow it to work.
Incidentally, his claim that rugby is dying........ the recent final game of the Six Nations between England and France produced record TV viewership, TV contracts at every level and in every league are bigger than ever. I blame the low crowd attendance on High Definition TV feeds, large flat screen TV's, surround sound, and the comfort of your own home with a few mates more than anything else.



MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Apr 2015, 00:17
#3
23 Apr 2015, 00:17#3

This man's suggestions are laughable....14 points to worry about at every scrum.

OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
23 Apr 2015, 03:34
#4
23 Apr 2015, 03:34#4
Here's my best attempt at rule changes that would encourage scoring tries and an open running game without making the game unrecognizable:
  1. Widen the field to what a stadium can safely bear, up to a limit (10m more on either side?). Wider pitches should earn a reputation for running rugby. 
  2. Get rid of the "mark" call - kinda cop out anyway, no?
  3. No ball can be kicked into touch (whether on the full or on the bounce) except from within your own 22
  4. 10m offside rule at scrums
  5. Defense must be required to make the ball available from a collapsed maul. No turnover of possession resulting from a tackle that becomes a maul.
  6. Instead of making a try worth more, make the conversion easier by moving balls scored outside the 15m mark to the 15m mark
  7. Limit the rush defense by making the ball the "offside line" beyond which an outside defender cannot advance. Takes away some of the threat of the intercept and keeps defenses from limiting the spread of the ball wide.

Leave the breakdown as it is - I think it is as well balanced as it has been in a long time and is a good contest



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Apr 2015, 06:28
#5
23 Apr 2015, 06:28#5
 The suggestions by oimatey is positive evaluation and is a worth considering - the comments of Mozart is again what is to be expected from an absolute idiot who does not know the game of rugby.   When reading the article I realized that Mozart will go bananas about this because his denseness would be exposed.  He wrote a whole contribution condemning anything positive and insisting that 90% of the role of a flyhalf is to kick balls.   When asked what a backline should do with balls received from the forwards he went quiet.
Lets face facts and look at something about the comments made by Zondagh:-
The present deficiencies in the game
Lets face facts - there is a serious deficiency in the game identified here.   That relates to the main objective of the game of rugby and that is scoring of tries.   There are two issues that affect this objective being reached.   The one is to ensure a maximum defensive strategy and the other is the achieving of a proper attacking mechanism by teams.
The idea that the two issues can be separated and that better attacking mechanisms would automatically lead to poorer defense has been stated time and time again on this site and in the media.  Why should that be the case in any event?   Both mechanisms are essential in the game of rugby and need not be contradictory to each other.
The main points Zondagh raise is in fact the need for -
*  intelligent and skilful execution; and*  good decisionmaking
I do not think any reasonable person can dispute the two major concerns raised.  This is a serious deficiency in SA Rugby in particular.  For years the main problem with key players at flyhalf and scrummie has been the issue of decisionmaking.   The decisionmaking by our flyhalfs have been sterilized by - 
*   the selection of players incapable of reading games and deciding on the best line of action given the circumstances applicable at specific instance during games; and 
*   the poor execution of what they have to do.
Even the flyhalfs known best for their kicking ability are known also mostly as launching inaccurate and aimless kicks instead of intelligent and kicking aimed at attaining positive objectives.
Other players have no idea as to ball skills and execution.  When to pass balls and when to keep them - running lines - effective passing, etc.
The main issue relates to INTELLIGENCE, ATHLETIC ABILITY  AND BALL SKILLS.  This is a serious deficiency IN THE CASE OF MANY PLAYERS.  The criteria is far too often to select "donkeys" based purely on their size without the ability to execute even the most basic functions applicable to their position.  To make them at least partly useful coaches implement GAME PLANS that insist on specific actions irrespective of the circumstances being applicable - thus creating robotic play.   
The real problem results from selection of players with limited abilities in dealing with the two elements identified by Zondagh.  I have in the past severely criticized selection of specific players showing incapability insofar as reading and execution is concerned.  Far too often overlaps are eliminated by just kicking the ball away, by skip passes that essentially eliminate the overlaps or by just hanging onto balls that should be passed.
The Scrum
Here we have a serious problem - which Zondagh tries to deal with.   The amount of time wasted in forming a proper scrum is a major concern often raised by people in the know. 
In essence there are more positives raised by Zondagh in the case of scrumming than negatives.   I do not think a scrum can reasonably be formed in ten seconds - that would be unfeasible since forwards involved may be fairly far away from where the scrum is indicated by the referee and they need to get to the scrum to be formed.  I think the minimum time allowed for forwards to reach the point where the scrum should be formed is not longer than 15 seconds.  Players just lagging behind to prevent and delay the forming of the scrum should be dealt with and the suggestions made by Zondagh is sound.   Obviously this time frame should be adjusted where a player is injured and attended to - but in that case the referee should indicate an injury break in play. 
I have a problem with the issue of wheeling a scrum.  Far too often props go on walkabouts and the one prop deliberately do not scrum properly - resulting in wheeling of the scrum.  Such actions should be severely penalized by a full-arm penalty.
There is nothing new in respect of the issues raised in point 13.   That has for many years the basic ruling iro of scrumming.  The foot-up rule by the hooker has been ignored for years and should be applied.
Our local village idiot cannot even count - Zondagh raise 13 issues, he mentioned 14 issues.   
Most of the issues relates to basic functions of the referee, the scrummies and the Hookers.   The only major change relates to the role of the hookers - not the referee in one case.   That could work - but I have doubts whether it would be advisable to change that function.    
Basically it is -
*   the delays that is a problem in the case of the forming of the scrum that needs to be eliminated;  and 
*   the need for a fair contest that needs to be attended to.
I THINK THAT ZONDAGH'S IDEAS TO ELIMINATE DELAYS IN FORMING OF A SCRUM AND FAIR SCRUMMING SHOULD BE CONSIDERED.                            


 
  
                
     
       
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Apr 2015, 11:16
#6
23 Apr 2015, 11:16#6

I think with the quick tap he means that the defenders will not have to retreat 10m.....if someone taps, a defender will be able to tackle the player immediately......taking away the advantage of the quick tap.


His call for not being able to clear out rucks with the shoulder is bullshit......its a great aspect of the game.......much like the 4 points in the red zone.


His scrum suggestions would make little difference other than the prop being able to use his outside hand to push himself back up would be a positive in that it could cut down the resets, but then we might find all props putting their hands on the ground all the time.

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
23 Apr 2015, 11:53
#7
23 Apr 2015, 11:53#7
Some interesting suggestions among that lot.

I like some of the suggestions regarding the scrum, especially the bit where the scrummie has to get the ball in quickly and doesn't have to wait for some signal from the ref and the props being allowed to use their hands on the ground.

The yellow/red card is a difficult one. Not sure what the right solution is but the current situation where a red card in the 1st minute is so much more damaging than a red card in the 80th minute (for the exact same offence) doesn't work for me.

I don't agree with Zondagh on the advantage issue. I don't think advantage should last for a specific time period but I do agree it should be clear to everyone when advantage is over and we shouldn't be reliant on the ref shouting when it's over. I would suggest advantage is over once the advantage line has been crossed or else when the ball is kicked . . . and by that I mean the instant the ball is kicked, not waiting to see if it bounces favourably or if it goes out of touch or not.

I also agree that the refs talk too much. Why should one player be warned he's infringing and another players gets pinged without the same warning?

I tend to agree with oimatey on the calling of the mark. It's become a bit of a waste of time. Moving conversions in 15 metres also sounds like a good idea as it rewards try-scoring without taking away the importance of goal-kicking.

First law change I'd make if it was me would be to devalue the drop kick to a single point. Can't stand them!
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Apr 2015, 12:45
#8
23 Apr 2015, 12:45#8
Penalty kicks to 2 points, drop 1 and conversion 1  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Apr 2015, 13:35
#9
23 Apr 2015, 13:35#9
 Dave 
I actually agree with you about the points issue - but I would award a try 6 points - not the five awarded ar present.   Try scoring should be the overriding concern, not trying to win games by kicking at goal.     
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Apr 2015, 13:40
#10
23 Apr 2015, 13:40#10
If goal kicking is low then there is no need to change the try to 6  
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
23 Apr 2015, 13:52
#11
23 Apr 2015, 13:52#11
 I would suggest that if men like this chap etc all want four quarter games, water breaks, alteration of points etc etc, they go and create their own flaming game....seriously. I am heartily sick to the back teeth of hearing about the necessary changes that need to be made to this game, the constant tinkering that does nothing to improve it and then idiotic suggestions like most of the above. So, seriously.....go and invent your own games and leave ours alone. 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Apr 2015, 13:58
#12
23 Apr 2015, 13:58#12

Becs.....the game is always open to improvement......its called progression......there are aspects of the game that need tweaks to improve it......there is nothing wrong with that......4 quarters is a crap idea though.


The points system should be changed to give less credit to kicking for poles.....and individual skill in a team sport  

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
23 Apr 2015, 14:31
#13
23 Apr 2015, 14:31#13
becs, this is nothing new. The laws of rugby have changed and evolved regularly over the years so if it makes you sick to the back teeth now then why didn't it bug you before?


BE
becsPro4,378 posts
23 Apr 2015, 14:32
#14
23 Apr 2015, 14:32#14
 There is too much tinkering, it has done nothing to aid progression, it has simply confused the players and, in general, made most matches a bore fest.I watched a selection of matches over the weekend.....from both hemispheres.None were any good at all. Changing the rules again will not make the slightest bit of difference, it is mindset and skill that needs to change, in certain instances. 
And I do not wish to see dismal defence resulting in eighty pointers, thank you very much.I quite enjoy a tussle to grind out a win. They all have their merits. 
Some of us do not need cheerleaders and being entertained, in inverted commas, to enjoy our Rugby. Some if us just go for the game. Sometimes it's good, other times not so good. That's the way it is !! 

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
23 Apr 2015, 14:35
#15
23 Apr 2015, 14:35#15
becs, we had this discussion a few months ago and I dug up this example of just the the changes in points value over the years:

"Up until approximately 1888, scoring a try had zero value. All a try did was give you the opportunity to "try" to convert it into a goal . . . hence the name "try".

Between approximately 1888 and 1891, a try was worth 1 point.

Between 1891 and 1893, a try was worth 2 points.

After 1891, the value of a penalty kick was changed from 2 to 3 points.

Between 1891 and 1948 a drop kick was worth 4 points.

Between 1893 and 1971 a try was worth 3 points.

After 1948 a drop kick was worth 3 points.

Between 1971 and 1992 a try was worth 4 points.

After 1977 a player could no longer try a place kick for 3 points after taking a mark.

After 1992 a try was worth 5 points.

Mine is not a comprehensive list of the changes in point scoring but those are the ones I'm aware of and it shows that Rugby Union has a long history of changing the value of points scored."

Please note that's just the changes in points value. The list of law changes would be hell of a lot longer.
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
23 Apr 2015, 15:05
#16
23 Apr 2015, 15:05#16
 Oh I am well aware of the Law changes over the decades, Rooinek.What I am heartily sick of is change for changes sake and those trying to alter the game completely.I would also like to know how many of the changes implemented thus far have improved the game drastically ? To my mind, not many. And I really think that if someone really wants to change the game that much, they should invent their own....really, I do. 
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
23 Apr 2015, 15:16
#17
23 Apr 2015, 15:16#17
So, becs, what is the distinction between a "change for change's sake" and a change that improves the game . . . and how would you know it's going to be an improvement unless you try it?

I'm not sure what's got you so worked up about this. This has been happening in rugby since the beginning. Were you this upset last year? How about the year before that? And the one before that? And all the years before?
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Apr 2015, 15:27
#18
23 Apr 2015, 15:27#18
Becs stop speaking crap.....the SH games are great to watch as was the last round of the 6N  
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
23 Apr 2015, 17:39
#19
23 Apr 2015, 17:39#19
Ummmmm......I make comment year on year, Rooinek, not just this one. It's hardly a new thing. Let's take the Scrum changes of a few seasons ago as an example then, shall we ? We now have the marvellous situation of Hookers who can't hook and Props being given lessons on how to push, because they don't actually know how to and haven't had to until they have changed the Laws yet again this year so that the " hit " is no longer the dominant area in the Scrum. It's farcical. ( Oh, and my Uncle, who used to Prop for Northampton, is also of the same opinion as me, so it's not just a silly female talking nonsense here. It's a man, and one that used to actually play at a high standard too ) 

As for you, Saffex, let's talk about the Sharks/Bulls game then, shall we ? Wow, that was awesome. Amazing stuff. Running Rugby, Tries aplenty and the slickest handling you've ever witnessed. Yeah, you're right, I'm talking rubbish.....  
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
23 Apr 2015, 19:31
#20
23 Apr 2015, 19:31#20
 We should not even consider the large scale  changes mentioned. A few tweaks to some of the laws here and there can be explored. One at a time please! 1.Obviously something can be done at the scrum. It's a mess most of the times and a lottery to boot. 2.Nothing wrong with drop goals, its a part of the game that is not much seen lately anyway.4. The card system is not actually working at the moment and should be reviewed drastically.5. Some of the finer points around kicking can also be looked at, especially kicks over the dead ball line.6. Breakdown area can be looked at.
Nothing too drastic. Look at the reason for the laws and if and why the current laws don't work. The simpler the fix, the better it should be. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Apr 2015, 20:51
#21
23 Apr 2015, 20:51#21
 Draad
In essence I think the two most important issues raised by Zondagh is the issue of intelligence and skills development.
The rest of the suggestions - like the time taken in getting a scrum formed and to deal with the proper scrumming mess is to my mind essential.   Whether all Zondagh's suggestions on scrumming and other issues will work is a moot point.   I for instance feel strongly about the issue of penalty line kicks - why should the offending side not get penalized since although they transgressed be given the throw-ins when a penalty kick resuls in a line-out.   By doing that the advantage the side who got the penalty  - is cancelled out and the advantage is basically given to the offending side.
Zondagh no doubt has strong connections in SA Rugby and some suggestions made by him - may be implemented over the next five years.        
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