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FORUM / RUGBY /  Average ages of starters....a lesson for lemmings

Average ages of starters....a lesson for lemmings

Started by Mozart49 REPLIES886 VIEWS· 23 Sept 2015, 05:40
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Sept 2015, 05:40
#1
23 Sept 2015, 05:40#1

Every rugby writer, every blogger is convinced our starting team was too old. They played badly, they simply couldn't take the pace. The old Springboks imploded.

 

Average starting age for the Boks on Saturday... 29.33

 

Average starting age for the All Blacks on Sunday....29.4

 

 

Just another fact our writers were too stupid or too lazy to uncover. Group think appears to be a communicable disease in South A frica.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Sept 2015, 08:04
#2
23 Sept 2015, 08:04#2
 Duplication
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Sept 2015, 09:50
#3
23 Sept 2015, 09:50#3
 Difference is that of the original side selected we only had 4 players under the age of 30 one of whom was 29.....the AB on the other hand had 8 players starting that were under the age of 30. 
That's the difference old man....the AB get the mix of experience and youth right. The majority of their side is under the age of 30....ours is dominated by 30 plus year olds.
Big difference also is that the AB side is a merit side...there are no passengers on board....nor are there any players who are not match fit like Jean and Louw. Hell even Alberts was down to play.
The Bok side has far too many old washed up has beens in the side and that's a fact and something that has been correctly pointed out by most observers. There are only a handful of idiots who think Meyer got it right. Bless these fools 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Sept 2015, 10:08
#4
23 Sept 2015, 10:08#4
 Dave
There is one major difference between the All Blacks and the Springboks insofar as selection is concerned.
Hansen picks players on the basis of performance irrespective of the age of players and give preference to experience players who still performs.
Meyer  picks players on the basis of reputation and prefers players with whom he is acquainted with without any regard to performance at all.   
That is why Hansen is a top coach and Meyer an absolute dud as a coach.
Low life missed out on those two cardinal differences and he is besotted with older players - according to him age counts for everything, performance for nothing.  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Sept 2015, 11:05
#5
23 Sept 2015, 11:05#5
Yep, as I keep saying.......Woodcock and Crockett are their best looseheads......Kitshoff is better than Beast
I'm not convinced that their old boys are the best when it comes to the loosies, but McCaw and co are doing a Schalk job......unlike useless Louw and Alberts
At 10, Carter has no peers.....regardless of age he is still the best 10 in the game.
At centre, Nonu, Smith and SBW are their best. Add Fikatoa who is in the squad......they have their best centres on board......their next best is Crotty who is average.
Jean is not close to being our best centre any longer, there are 10 better options than him. He might be the same age as Smith, but difference is, Smith is fit and has not suffered a major knee injury.
Huge difference that good old Moz fails to pick up on.
Difference is, the NZ old boys are still their best players......so 7 of their old boys start, with 8 younger players making up the balance.
The only 30+ in the Bok squad that are worthy of selection are Beast, Habana, Bismark, Strauss and Schalk......of those, only Bismark and Strauss would make my WC squad of 31.....while I could live with the selection of the other 3 for experience sake but it would mean leaving out a better player. 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Sept 2015, 14:13
#6
23 Sept 2015, 14:13#6

"Difference is that of the original side selected we only had 4 players under the age of 30 one of whom was 29.....the AB on the other hand had 8 players starting that were under the age of 30."

 

Are you simple Fattie.....what did I say? I said the starting team didn't I. The AB starting team last weekend was marginally older than ours....put that on your pork chop and eat it! 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Sept 2015, 16:37
#7
23 Sept 2015, 16:37#7
Low Life
You are a absolute dud and missed the whole discussion - being besotted by age only and accepting that performance is not a requirement for selection.  That is where you are the laughing stock of this site.
Now get it of our older players there are rare exceptions where players do perform well enough - the vast majority are useless insofar as performance is concerned.  
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
23 Sept 2015, 17:06
#8
23 Sept 2015, 17:06#8
 Average age and the sum of xp says nothing, the truth is in the detail . The age and xp are badly balanced in this squad. Add the match fitness in crucial positions and the bad results are actually not surprising.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Sept 2015, 17:15
#9
23 Sept 2015, 17:15#9
Another Barking dog....man you guys all eat the same porridge. Get with it Draad, you normally have more sense. Nobody played well, but nobo dy contributed more to our loss than Coenie and Kriel was the nail in the coffin.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Sept 2015, 17:17
#10
23 Sept 2015, 17:17#10
 There were more tan 2 nails in that coffin - s tart with the captain and vice-captain - their atrocious performances set the mark.   
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Sept 2015, 17:26
#11
23 Sept 2015, 17:26#11
 

Victor Matfield: 6

For little it’s worth, lock combination was probably Boks’ best by position. Matfield was right in the trenches for the duration, including trying to lead by example in dramatic closing minutes when SA were heavily under cosh: good stuff for man of 38.

 

Jean de Villiers: 4

Looked, frankly, like the under-pressure veteran he is; had an effect on his normally vibrant leadership. Couldn’t get into space, plus some rare blemishes in defensive positioning.  

 

From Rugby24. Matfield the second best Bok behind Lomp. I agree with the comments on Jean....mostly the leadership comments. But this is a guy in his first game after breaking his jaw, after destroying his knee.....he was at least as good as Jesse Kriel.

 

 

The cowardly vitriol directed at these great players tells me a lot about South African rugby fans. It's frankly disgusting.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Sept 2015, 17:58
#12
23 Sept 2015, 17:58#12
 Sure you would agree but then you Matfield build up points by standing around in the backline making weak tackles - and not contribute at all to Tight 5 play. That makes Matfield a useless lock - an absolutely useless one.  
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
24 Sept 2015, 00:14
#13
24 Sept 2015, 00:14#13
 Moz, you are aware thet the lemmings-over-the-cliff-suicide is a BS myth, thought up by Disney in typical Hollywood style? 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Sept 2015, 00:55
#14
24 Sept 2015, 00:55#14
Moffie fucking wake up you stupid prick.....I am not talking about average age.....I am talking about the age of the individuals.
Get this into your fucking stupid head......8 of the AB's that started were under the age of 30......thats the majority of their starting side......get it, dumb ass?
Compared to the Boks, where only 4 players originally selected to start were under the age of 30
What part of this are you struggling to understand you stupid racist pig
Catch a wake up and get with it......your pathetic support for Meyer is nauseating......how fucking stupid are you.
You must have been one fucking useless businessman......given your track record of backing a loser.  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Sept 2015, 01:15
#15
24 Sept 2015, 01:15#15
Fat man give up on the big numbers, you only have ten stubby little fingers. 
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
24 Sept 2015, 02:34
#16
24 Sept 2015, 02:34#16
However poor Jean was, he has been better than Damian. You can choose whichever game this year, at Super or test level, the conclusion is the same. Jean is just a better rugby player than Damian. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Sept 2015, 03:50
#17
24 Sept 2015, 03:50#17
 The rest of the WC campaign is going to be a joke.   The chances are that we have the following chance on winning the pool matches:-
Samoa     -   30%Scotland  -   10%USA        -   40%
Just have a look between the performance of the Springboks against the Japanese and what the Scots did to the Japanese.   All of that because of a sh!t squad selection by Meyer who now have a squad of has-beens and never-has-beens incapable of competing on test level anymore .
What is clear is that our two resident dunces are accepting the possibility of a loss and is already targeting De Allende as the reason for the potential loss.  What a joke.       
      
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Sept 2015, 10:58
#18
24 Sept 2015, 10:58#18

Ah Moffie, stumped again......too fucking stupid to work out that the AB's had 8 players under the age of 30 in the their starting line up versus the 4 the Boks had in the original side selected.


Spot the difference you fucking idiot


Owned once again..........game set and match for the umpteenth time


You are such easy pickings old man.......do yourself a favour and retire and take Kirchner, Mvovo, Habana, Jean, Morne, du Preez, Pienaar, Beast, Jannie, Brits, Matfield, Louw, Alberts and Schalk with you. Put Meyer out to pastures.....he does not even deserve a pension.


All a bunch of passengers.....much like yourself


How's Meyer shaping up for you......what about big Vic ahead of Lood.....or Jean ahead of Kriel.......bwhaahaaaaaa

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Sept 2015, 12:13
#19
24 Sept 2015, 12:13#19
 Low Life's ideal is nearly achieved - the average age of the starting line-up on Saturday is 29,93 - the 30 years Low Life is striving for is within reach soon.  If the match was a month later - it would have exceeded the 30 year mark. 
The age distribution is as follows:-
30 + age players  =    829 + age players  =    3Younger players   =    4   
Of the players on Saturday the highlighted players were like zombies on the rugby field on Saturday and seriously under-performed:-
Willie le RouxJP PietersenJean de Villiers   Damien de AllendeBryan HabanaHandre PollardFourie du PreezSchalk Burger    Francois Louw Victor MatfieldEben EtzebethJannie du PlessisAdriaan StraussTendai Mtawarire
In other words 6 of the 10 failures are still in the team for Saturday.  The only decent performer on Saturday was De Jager - but he was dropped to the bench.   
Of the bench players last week the following underperformed when they came on the field of play:-
JP PietersenSiya Kolisi 
Of the bench players against Samoa on Saturday the following started last week and failed to perform well enough:-

Jesse Kriel  Ruan Pienaar
So what have we got here - the majority of the failed players are still in the match day squad.   This window dressing exercise by Meyer is not convincing at all - and I have strong reservations as to whether the team on Saturday will in essence be better than the team who flopped against Japan.   
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
24 Sept 2015, 13:38
#20
24 Sept 2015, 13:38#20
 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Sept 2015, 14:33
#21
24 Sept 2015, 14:33#21

Average age is the best independent variable to measure the effect of age on team performance Fat Man. You are arguing for 30 being a magic number...above 30 you cant play. So why not use 25 as a magic number....below 25 you cant play, the Boks had 4 players below 25, NZ only 2. So the best team in the World has very few young players.

 

That should do it....game, set and match.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Sept 2015, 15:06
#22
24 Sept 2015, 15:06#22

Ah so Moffie who told you that average age is the best independent variable......what a load of horse shit.


By your pathetic argument.....I could have 10 twenty year olds in my side and five 38 year olds, where your best independent variable would be anything but accurate......for neither are the 20 year olds on average 26 and nor are the 38 year olds for that matter.


What counts is actual age and yes in general, 30 plus would be considered old in a sport like rugby.


I'll say it one more time, the AB starting line up had 8 players who were under that age of 30, so the best side in the WC has a perfect balance of old and young......unlike the Boks with only 4 under the age of 30......spot the difference old fart......8 vs 4......get it thick prick? 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Sept 2015, 15:07
#23
24 Sept 2015, 15:07#23
 Low life
You are a liar as per normal.   I never rate players according to their ages - I rate them according to performance irrespective of age.   I leave the age demonic approach to you - since you rate players according to their age - with no need for them to perform.
The above followed from your approach to the matter - all i did was to indicate where players were sub-par last week and that in view of the viciously poor performance the new team entail window dressing - with very little chance of success.
You know why the Under 25's were there?  The reason is that since Meyer never did anything about world cup squad development since 2012 and essentially does the same as you - he picked the players based on reputation without regard to performance.  When some of his old farts were not available when the original squad was announced  - he was forced to pick some younger players.   
Meyer's record over the last year indicated that he effectively sabotaged the Springbok team and we are now saddled with a disaster as a WC squad.
No game set and match in this case.   Your house of cards in supporting Meyer is caving in around you and I am sorry for you in showing so little thinking ability in your blind support of has-beens and never-has-beens in the Springbok squad.                 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Sept 2015, 15:55
#24
24 Sept 2015, 15:55#24

Of course you can construct a skewed distribution with all the players at the tails Fat Man. The only problem with that theory duffus, is it doesn't match reality. Almost all the teams have normal or near normal age distribution.. Here are the facts:

 

Age<25 ....NZ 8....Boks 9

 

25<Age< 30....NZ 12...Boks 8

 

Age>30....NZ 11...Boks 14.

 

 

So the Boks are a bit more represented below 25 and have more players over 30. But if you then peal the onion one more layer, you find NZ's over 30 players average 32.63 vs the Boks 32.14. Which no doubt accounts for the average age of Nz's starters being higher than the Boks.

 

Game, set and match again. Bu.llsh. it never baffles brains.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Sept 2015, 16:15
#25
24 Sept 2015, 16:15#25
 Low Life
Don't you understand plain English?  I said age should not be a norm in team selection.  I am frankly not interested in the age of sportsmen - the norm should always be is performance.    If a 40 year old player is still the best in the position he plays in and can compete on international level - there is no problem with his selection.
Where I do have a problem is where a player even at a younger age is deficient in performance - he should not be anywhere near the squat - typical examples are  Fat Fransie and also JP Pietersen.   Both had atrocious records in Super 15 over the last two years and Pietersen is in Meyer's squad only because of reputation.
You are making a song and dance about the age issue and plaster on this site numerous cases of achievements by older players in all codes of sport and according to you the same should be the casein rugby.  The older the better seems to be your norm - PERFORMANCE means NOTHING in your book.    
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
24 Sept 2015, 16:44
#26
24 Sept 2015, 16:44#26
 The problem lies with the underrepresentation in the 25 to 30 section. That is the core of the team going forward. Do the same for the starting 15 and match 23 and it looks even worse, with some of those u30's very close to being over 30.
TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
24 Sept 2015, 18:25
#27
24 Sept 2015, 18:25#27
 Hello all,
first post on this forum.
Hoping in to share a few thoughts on the topic.

Mozart wrote:
Here are the facts:

 

Age<25 ....NZ 8....Boks 9

 

25<Age< 30....NZ 12...Boks 8

 

Age>30....NZ 11...Boks 14.


They might be facts but they are poorly chosen.

Correct brackets to study could be:
Players between 28 and 32, between 32 and 36, between 24 and 28.

The average age of a squad might be the best independent variable to measure the effect of age on team performance (you must look at the other independent variable to conclude)

The problem lies in that team performance depends on the yield of each position in the team and the performance at each position evolves differently with age.

So averaging on team age gives no reliable information.

Mental, physical and technical skills progress at a different rate and carry on differently (endurance drops less fast than acceleration for example)

It means that each position mature at a different age. Players are expected to reach their peak  and go past their prime at a different age.

As an indication, we take that props mature at an older age (32) than wings(28)

Building a squad with two 32 props and two 28 wings contributes to the same average (30) than two 28 props and two 32 wings.

Except that one side fields four players in their prime while the other fields two players before their prime and two after their prime.

One side is expected to perform better than the other.

After a glance at wiki, it looks like NZ selection is closer to the first case (that is a line up of players in their prime) while SA is a closer to the second case (players past their prime and players who have yet to reach peak age)

This is a statistical approach and the SA selection might be composed of players all in their prime despite their age not corresponding with the average prime age for each position.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
24 Sept 2015, 18:38
#28
24 Sept 2015, 18:38#28
Well said and a warm welcome to the board traditionalist. This is such a funny topic. some people mature latter than others eyc. The only criteria is performance. If you are good enough you are old enough or young enough. Fact is wee matfield is not good enough - actually never has been remotely good enough.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
24 Sept 2015, 18:39
#29
24 Sept 2015, 18:39#29
 Welcome Thetraditionalist, glad to see someone will challenge Mozart on logic especially his statistical analysis 
Personally I stick the the win/lost record, others choose to factor in the refs influence (Ref Assisted Wins -RAWs) but I am a purist.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
24 Sept 2015, 18:39
#30
24 Sept 2015, 18:39#30
 Welcome, nice post, but I'm afraid you are going to join some of us in the dog box.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Sept 2015, 18:42
#31
24 Sept 2015, 18:42#31
Draad
There is a problem in team selection and a very pressing one insofar as SA is concerned.   The problem is linked to the countries winning the WC.  It is nearly a sin for such countries to change the WC winning squad and unless players retire voluntarily the various countries hang onto WC winning players as if their lives depends on it.   That is the main reason why the WC has never been won twice in succession  by the same country.
South Africa was in the same position after 2007 and with De Villiers being a dud coach and the senior players in the team effectively running the show there was preciously little being done with team renewal in the period 20008 until 2011.   The number of younger players allowed in was minimal and those who were allowed in was already very near to 30 years of age.
Meyer was always of the opinion that in the WC the key element iro winning was experience and reputation.  Subsequent developments have indicated that Meyer in 2012 already had a list of about 20 players who would make up the bulk of his WC squad.   The Meyer squad from the word go in the main players who were involved in the 2003, 2007 and 2011 WC's.   By that time some players have retired and he had to start with a few new players.   With the exception of Etzebeth  none of the younger players used in 2012 lasted longer than a few tests - while Meyer pleaded with some of the retirees to return to test rugby and dropped newly selected players like a hot potato when they did return.
Of the players not involved in the previous WC the only players first selected by Meyer was limited to about 3 players - Etzebeth, Le Roux and Vermeulen - who came to the fore because of retirement or injuries to players and was such an improvement pm their predecessors Meyer could not drop them when the ex-WC players returned.     What has in fact happened was that a whole generation of players was by-passed by De Villiers and Meyer and we are now stuck with a few very young and inexperienced players and virtually no players in the age group 25 to 30.   The lost generation of players caused by De Villiers and Meyer will cost us dearly in future.

The unfortunate problem was that performance by the ex-WC players was not a norm for selection - so the door was effectively closed for players to establish themselves as test players and gain experience in international rugby.
    
            


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
24 Sept 2015, 19:43
#32
24 Sept 2015, 19:43#32
 Ou Maaaikie can you tone it down a tad. Low life is almost as bad as racist pig. Lets not turn this palce into a cesspool. Disagree to your hearts content but set a reasonable tone.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Sept 2015, 20:02
#33
24 Sept 2015, 20:02#33
Beeno  
As long as Mozart call me perv I will call him Low Life.   I am not going to accept that kind of insult from him when he has no grounds whatsoever to use that term iro me.   
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
24 Sept 2015, 20:06
#34
24 Sept 2015, 20:06#34
 Well 13438 postings and still the coin has not dropped.
Just shows that their is no bottom to how low it is possible to sink to.
No base just like an a***hole.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
24 Sept 2015, 20:53
#35
24 Sept 2015, 20:53#35
 Best both term are dropped. Make sure you at least dont start. See even AJ is on a decline!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Sept 2015, 21:11
#36
24 Sept 2015, 21:11#36
 The Traditionalist
Welcome to the site - your first input was very good and thought-provoking.   I have to agree with you on the statistical part of your assessment.   However, my point has always be that age is not all that important in player assessment - performance is.   
Let me explain further - to my mind some players mature earlier and that is not reflected in stats based on age -  while others lose there performance ability at an earlier stage than others.   Stats remain an interesting basis for discussion of rugby issues - but can to my mind not be the alpha and omega in player evaluation.
        
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
25 Sept 2015, 00:04
#37
25 Sept 2015, 00:04#37
Moffie how fucking stupid are you huh?
We are talking starting sides for Boks against Japan compared to the AB starting side against the Argies you stupid prick...its not about the squad as a whole - it was about the Bok side being a bunch of washed up has beens. 
You were the idiot who informed us that the Kiwi's average age was similar....I merely pointed out your ignorance by pointing out that if you look at the players actual ages you will find that 8 of the Kiwi's were under the age of 30, while the wonderful Bok side only had 4 under the age of 30.
Get it old timer....Wake the fuck up....your brain is as geriatric as our team is.
It's a fact that our side has too many old players in the side....11 of them in fact.


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Sept 2015, 05:01
#38
25 Sept 2015, 05:01#38
Can't you count pork chop...Mvovo, Kriel, Lambie, Lomp and Stephanie  make five....hint use one hand and count all the fingers. 
Then you arbitrarily use 30 as your definition of old...but over a quarter of most squads is older than 30.... older  than 32 is clearer cut. And the Boks had  two starting players over 32....Jean and Victor. The ABs had 5...Woodcock, McCaw, Conrad Smith, Nonu and Carter. Five to two. And NZ have an older ream average.
Cornered again Pork Chop....time for game, set and match. And by the way when you are quoting numbers, kindly get them right duffus.
MO
MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
25 Sept 2015, 05:07
#39
25 Sept 2015, 05:07#39
Meyer's level of respect for the Springbok supporters !
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Sept 2015, 05:22
#40
25 Sept 2015, 05:22#40
I wish that were true Monster. If it were we wouldn't have gone through the Lambie, Reinach, Whiteley deadends. If anything HM's vulnerability is he cares too much about what the fans think.  
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