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FORUM / RUGBY /  Beeno explains the NZ Bryce Lawrence debacle

Beeno explains the NZ Bryce Lawrence debacle

Started by Beeno182 REPLIES1,591 VIEWS· 18 Oct 2012, 11:32
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Oct 2012, 11:32
#1
18 Oct 2012, 11:32#1

The NZ plot was very obvious. Get OZ and SA to meet in the quarters and eliminate the Boks. Bryce achieved both objectives for them. Paddy ensured he would be reffing both these games and no doubt Brycy’s dad had a hand in it all as well. NZ having choked in every world cup bar the initial one in nz where they won  (Boks did not play in that one) were DESPARATE FOR A WIN -an dwoul ddo anything to win.

Comments by TrueBlueNZ Its been a source of wonder to me that Bryce Lawrence has held his job for so long (So why did paddy hav ehim there and give him these crucial matches). IMHO, his performances from day one of his refereeing career have been lamentable. I was shocked to see his name on the list of referees for the RWC (Its obvious why and how he was part of the ref panel at the WC). My apprehension was well founded. Lawrence’s appearances were as bad as ever. What is wrong at the IRB (What is rong with Paddy?)that they are apparently so blind to the incompetence so many others can so plainly see? Today I came upon this little known fact- Lawrence is of course, the son of New Zealander Keith Lawrence, who is the former boss of referees in the country and now heads the IRB’s refereeing development office. Wel,  well,  well!!!! TrueBlueNZ Referees and rules are destroying rugby. The IRB is a bureaucratic disaster and should be disbanded. One of the worst outcomes of its management is that games are now won or lost based on the capricious judgments of referees and their wildly changing approaches to the rules. Very few referees do a good job. A few do, but too many are hopeless, and the most hopeless of all IMHO is Bryce Lawrence. Way back when Lawrence made his debut into upper level rugby, I laughed when I heard him complaining about Andrew Merhtens constantly sledging him during the game. Lawrence claimed that after one decision that upset Canterbury, Merhtens said loudly- “Don’t worry guys, he’ll be back reffing second division next weekend” Well, he should have been, but sadly he’s moved on upwards and is now a top official at the world cup. What a disaster. I reckon Lawrence is the worst referee there, and with Stuart Dickinson also present, that’s saying something. (Dickinson could also be totally shocking) Its only my humble opinion of course, but Lawrence, Dickinson and Steve Walsh are the three worst referees in the tournament, and I’d put Lawrence as the worst of them all. They make the game difficult to watch. If not impossible. Lawrence is averaging 6.3 scrum resets per game. This is the highest number of resets per game for any ref in the RWC. For scrum penalties, Lawrence is 3rd highest in the RWC with 4.3 per game. Here though is the killer statistic- During Lawrence’s three Wallabies games the penalty count is 33 awarded to the opposition and 18 awarded to the Wallabies. This is a figure that has to say something about his judgment. The Daily Telegraph reports today the Lawrence himself has admitted to many mistakes- Many of the Kiwi referee’s decisions in the 15-6 win by Ireland at Eden Park – particularly at the scrum – appeared to baffle the Wallabies, and allowed Ireland to knock over decisive penalties or repel Australian pressure. But in a crucial twist, The Daily Telegraph understands Lawrence later made admissions he had got several calls wrong at the scrum – including one that led to an Ireland penalty goal – and conceded other decisions were also inaccurate. Lawrence needs to up his standards for the Aussie Springboks game tomorrow, but I don’t think he can. As Merhtens said way back, he’s only ever going to be a second rater. Shouldn’t ever have made it to the world cup.   SO LAWRENCE HANDED THE MATCH TO IRELAND FORCING AN OZ VERSUS BOKS PLAY OFF. NOW COMES PHASE TWO. Update 1: Another disastrous error filled display that made a farce of the game of rugby. Lawrence should be fired along with the IRB officials who appointed him to officiate at a level that is obviously far beyond his capabilities (Well what happened afterwards – bye bye Paddy and bye bye BL – they were quietly given the boot). If it was up to me, I wouldn’t let him ref a district high school final. Johannesburg - No visible action will be taken against New Zealand referee Bryce Lawrence after his refereeing performance in the Rugby World Cup quarter-final on Sunday.

Lawrence, who many South Africans blame for the loss for failing to control the breakdown and allowing Wallaby flank David Pocock the freedom of the park will no longer be involved in the World Cup, but the International Rugby Board will not allow any comment on his performance.

IRB Referees boss Paddy O’Brien seemed more than willing to chat about Lawrence, but asked that all enquiries go through IRB Communications manager Dominic Rumbles on the matter.

Rumbles simply repeated the IRB mantra of “We don’t comment on individual refereeing performances”. (Yes even their dismissals werE quietly done and they were never publically disgraced)

However, behind the scenes it seems that Lawrence has been hauled over the coals for his performance, which was seen as one of the worst in the tournament. (Possibly the worst ever)

The question marks are still there whether he should have been at the World Cup in the first place.

Lawrence was lambasted after his handling of the Sharks v Crusaders game in the Super Rugby qualifiers, so much so that SANZAR referees boss Lyndon Bray admitted he probably wouldn’t have got the Super Rugby final if the appointments were announced later.

Lawrence is of course, the son of New Zealander Keith Lawrence, who is the former boss of referees in the country and now heads the IRB’s refereeing development office.

Australia were angry at Lawrence’s rulings in the scrum in their loss to Ireland, so much so that he admitted “making key mistakes” in the game that forced them into the showdown with the Springboks.

And after Saturday Lawrence will not have many fans in South Africa, where days after the loss he is still being blamed for the Boks' exit from the tournament.

A Facebook "petition to stop Bryce Lawrence from ever reffing a game again" had garnered more than 41 000 likes in its first day on the internet.

And the final word was left to outgoing Bok captain John Smit, who summed up Lawrence's performance well.

"Bryce is not difficult to communicate with, he just doesn't seem to listen very well. The one positive is that I won't ever have to be reffed by him again," Smit said on arrival back in South Africa. International condemnation for Bryce Lawrence has continued to gather momentum and he has now been overlooked for the semi-finals, and seemingly the final, by the IRB. Pressure from rugby fans has also led to a Facebook campaign for action to be taken and Bryce Lawrence himself is reported to be considering quitting the game. It says something about the way sport and media (and social media) has changed and referees are under far more scrutiny than ever before. The fundamental difference between Bryce Lawrence’s performances and other refereeing mistakes (Wayne Barnes for example) is that on the whole other mistakes are just that – a blip in the game – and players/coaches/fans are mature enough to realise that their team made more mistakes that cost them the game than a refereeing blemish. Bryce Lawrence has just looked out of his depth for the entire tournament (and in reality before it) and the IRB need to realise they made a mistake in appointing him. All referees have car crash games, where everything goes wrong, but Bryce is a metaphorical regular pile-up! You wouldn’t allow such incompetent drivers on the road and the IRB shouldn’t encourage the same from their elite.   Brought-into Disrepute Posted on October 9, 2011 by law23 With England crashing out of the World Cup (and Tuilagi splashing out!), Ireland crushed by an inspirational Welsh side, Australia proving you dont need possession, territory or ability to win a Test match and New Zealand stuttering to a win over the battling Pumas (THE ABS WERE VERY VERY ORDINARY AS THEY WERE IN THE FINAL - NO DOUBT ABOUT IT HAD THE BOKS AND ABS MET IN FINAL BOKS WOULD HAVE WON WITH EASE), the main quarter final talking point was yet again the substandard performance of Bryce Lawrence, who looked inept and like a rabbit in the headlights as he took charge of Australia v South Africa. It appears an odd decision to have a kiwi refereeing a match that would decide the likely team to play the All Blacks the week later. This was compounded by the numerous mistakes and indecision he showed, particularly in the closing stages where South Africa demolished a ramshackle Wallaby team in every facet of the match. (So Mike It would be appreciated if you could stop your nonsensical remarks about Bok geriatrics. This was one of the most dominant performances by the Boks against Oz ever witnessed) However, despite their dominance and the Aussies committing numerous indiscretions, Bryce seemed only interested in awarding scrums, until an innocuous issue at the lineout that he determined was deliberate and gave Australia a lifeline and passage into the Semi-finals. Hopefully, the silver lining means that it is unlikely that Bryce will darken the World Cup again. Hoor Hoor. However the whole plot needs to be uncovered and NZ rugby authorities brought to book. I echo the calls of Prof Tim Noakes that an investigation be done. I am afraid that this whole debacle has been covered up to save face. This was not just a melt down by a ref it is far more sinister than that. Only a proper investigation can clear the air and prove culpability. I propose Saffex be given the case with strict control over his reimbursements! What was also shocking however was how we had that well know case windpomp (Ceradyne) doing whatever he could to convince folk we lost the game because of our poor play. As John Smit said "It's the first time I've lost a game on the scoreboard but won everything else from a stats point of view. That makes it even harder to accept. " (pLEASE NOT EMIKE AS YOU HAVE GREATLY ERRED IN THIS MATTER) Bwahahahahahahahahaha I think ou windpomp is always going around in circles and he gets so confused he can’t see the wood from the treas. Hahahahahahahahaha but we always have a few saffas who are at heart ab supporters – you see them unfortunately at Newlands. The other hilarious thing  our ab oaks are coming up with is th attheir recent Rugby championship win proves they are worthy wolrd champs. Thy fail to note the huge changes to the side and new coach and injuries etcx etc. Als othey will no tadmit they wer ethumped in Dunedin in all but the scoreboard. Conclusion: the ab fans are living in cloud cuckooland. They are the world chumps and what they really need to do is clean up their act. Drop mcheat and try and find some honest refs - even if you have to get in some immigrants and train them up. Hahahhahahahahaha.  
KI
KitchenerClub Pro612 posts
18 Oct 2012, 12:00
#2
18 Oct 2012, 12:00#2

LOL! Thats quite the conspiracy theory Baboon-ou.

 

Let me guess.... u allso beleive the Appollo moon landing was filmed in a studio, the CIA were responsible for 9/11 & the pyramids were built by shape-shifting lizards? Hahahahahahahaha!

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Oct 2012, 12:17
#3
18 Oct 2012, 12:17#3

Jallopy the only shape/nick changeing lizard here is you. Bwahahahahahahahahaha

Sorry jallopy but this all hangs together very well and your irrelvant comments dont make any dent on what I said at all. Not even the smallest scratch. 

So how did you know about the baboon ou story or that picture?

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Oct 2012, 12:20
#4
18 Oct 2012, 12:20#4

Beeno

I have no problem - and said so repeatedly about the issue of the game itself.   I basically believe that he was incompetent and completely so.   What bothers me more is what I wrote elsewhere on this issue - that is the ethical standards practiced by the NZRB.

That indicates his awarding as Referee of the Year for 2011  plus his  latest appointment is based on either -

*   pay-off for services rendered; or

*   his farher's involvement in the process.

Both are unethical and should never be condoned in decent society.   If it ever comes out that the first one is the case - the WC win by New Zealand will be nullified and the cup awarded to France.   The New Zealanders must pray there is no hard evidence on that score - since that would be disastrous insofar as they are concerned.   The question remains in such a case - has Lawrence got them by the shorts and thus forcing them to pay up?   

I personally hope that the latter is not the case - beecause it will harm World Rugby and the image of the code of sport on a world wide basis.   Insofar as his father's possible involvement in the appointment is concerned - it will also be highly unethical - since it would have a bearing on refereeing standards world wide in future.   A referee that failed miserably so many times cannot be trusted to supervise the development of younger referees.   In any event the present poor standard of New Zealand referees can only go even further down in such a case.

Maybe there should really be an IRB investigation on this issue - it may clear the air considerably - provided the outcome is not covered up.    

  

KI
KitchenerClub Pro612 posts
18 Oct 2012, 12:45
#5
18 Oct 2012, 12:45#5

"So how did you know about the baboon ou story or that picture?"

 

Baboon-ou, I know u are stupid but Ive allready answered this when u 1st asked it on this thread:

 

http://www.sarugby.com/forum.cfm?threadid=2648

 

Pls read my reply to u on that thread & let me know if u need me 2 try draw u some pictures if u still dont understand where I 1st saw that pic of u or the name "Baboon-ou".

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Oct 2012, 13:24
#6
18 Oct 2012, 13:24#6

Mike I firmly believe an investigation MUST happen. That said one doesnt know what was said to nz behind closed doors regarding this whole debacle. Certainly their guys were fired. Also one has to note we have had NH refs in the Rugby Champonship.

However it cannot be good to leave someting like this unresolved. In cricket match fixing has been dealt with openly and in the courts. If nz are innocent then that should be shown. Currently few believe they are.  Our ref Andre Watson- who has is highly regarded - said he was dumfounded by the decisions made by BL.

The air needs to be cleared.

Jallopy I tried unsuccessfully  to go to the webpage you indicated. You are an old aquaintance so please come out of the closet.

 

KI
KitchenerClub Pro612 posts
18 Oct 2012, 13:29
#7
18 Oct 2012, 13:29#7

Hahahahahahahahahahaha! Unsuccessfully u say??? What was the error msg, Baboon-ou?

 

Copy and paste again or just go to your current adress bar and change the 2720 to a 2648 and itll bring up that thread. No rocket science involved here.

 

U sure u not pretending the page wont open cuz it proves how stupid u are? ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Oct 2012, 13:48
#8
18 Oct 2012, 13:48#8

jallopy I did the search by highlighting the address you gave etc but no luck. I changed the number on the current adddres and had a quick glance  - didnt see any explanation.

Look old frot friut all this is pretty tedious and the only point of interest is why you are so scared you still cant say who you are. You still have that chimp ou aspect about you. Bwahahahahahaha

 

AL
allblacknblueClub Pro233 posts
18 Oct 2012, 13:57
#9
18 Oct 2012, 13:57#9

Thats alot of words just for a whind up beano!

 

I didn't read it all admittedly But wonder when you will also pin the Kennedy assassination and aliens on us as well lol.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Oct 2012, 14:13
#10
18 Oct 2012, 14:13#10

All Blacknblue

I am asking a serious question here about the ethic standards of NZRB in rewarding incompetence in the way they did.   My issue is that Lawrence admitted he fouled up games and even apologized for it - but the subsequent acrtions of the NZRB is the issue.   That is not a Kenedy assasination myth - incidentally that story originated because of the close links between Kennedy;s father and the Mafia - when both were involved in the illegal liquor trade.    It remains a myth though.

In the case of the past and present actions of the NZRB is concerned - it is NOT A MYTH - it there for all to see.   Taking into account the fact that the incompetence of Lawrence is evident - why the subsequent honourable treatment meted out to him?.  

KI
KitchenerClub Pro612 posts
18 Oct 2012, 14:16
#11
18 Oct 2012, 14:16#11

Baboon-ou, whatever, just stop repeating the same question about where I saw the name Baboon-ou or the pic if yr too stupid to open a simple web page and if u find it all so tedious then stop whining about it.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Oct 2012, 14:20
#12
18 Oct 2012, 14:20#12

Allow Prof Tim Noakes the last word:

Just as the dust started to settle on the unsuccessful defence by the Springboks of their Rugby World Cup title, respected sports science guru, Professor Tim Noakes has dropped another bombshell.

Sport24

In a letter addressed to the Cape Times, Noakes suggested that the result of the World Cup quarter-final between South Africa and Australia was predetermined as a result of what he called ‘bent’ science.

“When science is manipulated to produce a predetermined outcome, it’s called ‘bent’ science. Such science is usually directed by large commercial interest. When the outcome of a sporting event is predetermined, we call it ‘match-fixing,’ Noakes wrote in the letter.

“I am not saying that there was match-fixing, I am saying that the IRB must prove there wasn’t,” Noakes added.

Noakes lamented that South Africans have been unjustly robbed of their World Cup crown and based on the evidence of the match, he does not have a doubt that referee, Bryce Lawrence was benefitting from the outcome of the match.

“Referee (Bryce) Lawrence’s selective inability to apply to the illegal actions of one team, the accepted rugby laws in at least three areas of the game can unfortunately be interpreted in only one way – that he was benefitting from it personally by ensuring that the Wallabies would win this ‘bent’ game,” Noakes added.

I think an injustice has been done and South Africa as a nation deserves the truth.”

Noakes went onto say that match fixing should not be ruled out as a possibility in rugby as it is already prevalent in cricket as well as football.

The tragedy of this travesty is that it has undermined the legitimacy of the 2011 Rugby World Cup and has done severe damage to the credibility of the IRB. But worse, it has also robbed the South African rugby team of their legitimate chance for immortality by winning back-to-back RWC’s.”

That about sums it up. Unfortuntaley there has been a cover up. Would that Prof Noake's appel had been acted on.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Oct 2012, 14:23
#13
18 Oct 2012, 14:23#13

Allblack and blue harken unto the voices of reason and sanity. Get head out of sand etc. An investigation is called for. That is the voice of reason. Denialism will not help.

AL
allblacknblueClub Pro233 posts
18 Oct 2012, 15:09
#14
18 Oct 2012, 15:09#14

I think his appointment just shows our lack of top refs in nz more than anything else, who else would we get the job?

I have no problem with an investigation. I think Lawrence should be applauded for his honesty and believe him when he says he let events effect his judgment, this in no way points to corruption. At the end of the day we were the no1 ranked team and looking the goods there was no need for it.

Like you pic by the way beano!

 

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Oct 2012, 17:14
#15
18 Oct 2012, 17:14#15

All Bllackrblue

I must afmit I largely share your viewpoint on the appointment of Lawrence and the general poor standard of refereeing in New Zealand.   Something like in the land of the blind - cockeye is king.   However, it would have been better if the NZRB looked wider and get a better referee from outside to help with the required upgrading programme - with the ultimate objective of getting refereeing standards to a higher level than at present.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Oct 2012, 17:53
#16
18 Oct 2012, 17:53#16

Hi there all allblacknblue - we do our best to please. Hehehehehe

No soft soaping the nz oaks Mike. This issue is worthy of investigation because here is a real chance of corruption. Dont tell me an experienced ref fully qualified gets it that wrong!. How credulous can one get!!

Beeno as ever calling a spade a spade.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Oct 2012, 18:47
#17
18 Oct 2012, 18:47#17

Beeno

I stand by my earlier statement - the NZRB's actions are really unethiical and give rise to a serious need for further investigation,

Where I agree witk All Blacknblue is on the issue of the the totally inadequate standard of refereeing in New Zealand,   

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
18 Oct 2012, 20:05
#18
18 Oct 2012, 20:05#18

still the same ol yawn of an argument, i still rmemeber when i was equally disgusted and complaining with the 2007 outcome and being told by many many saffas to get the fuck over it and guess what??? i did, and now i cant help bu LMAO at these petty attempts for the davinci code 2, the 2011 RWC, BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA,,, my ROLMFAOCOPTOR is the most energy conserving machine out here with all these tales of wonder planting a permanent smile on my face, :oD

there was nothing wrong with that match between ireland and australia, neither digby nor poc0ck was playing in that match and the irish fronted up to play, is it really inconceviable to a south african that ireland might beat austalia??? i mean FFS, Boks have won 3 of ur last 4 matches against ireland. wether u like it or not, the All Blacks are the ONLY top teir team in the world who dosent know what its like to lose to ireland, so save the conspiracies for scoobie and the mystery van gang, LMAO.
end of the day, just watch the freaking game and tell me exactly how lawrence lost the wallabies the game, when the irish had more possession, territory and were more succesful with their goal kicking??? oh thats right, logic isnt part of this argument, so now i have end this post right here.

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
18 Oct 2012, 20:12
#19
18 Oct 2012, 20:12#19

@clevermike,

ive posted this a number of times here, but not everyone in NZ agreed with lawrence been given the NZ ref of the year award as many agreed it sent out a poor message after his poor performance in the quaters.
the NZ panel which awarded BL the ref of the year included graham mourie and brian lochore who are both respected mebers of rugby around the world and when questioned about it, they replied that while he had a poor game, the rest of his games were reffed to the highest order and they thought he deserved it.
when asked if they thought this might be a bitter pill for SA to swallow, they simply replied, we make desicions based on what we think is best, outside influences political or not have no bearing here unlike other nations.

 

but while were on this topic, i was recently made aware by a blogger on another forum about transgresions made by wayne barnes, but the poster was a coplete and unreliable fuckwit who does nothing but troll, so i ignored what he said, untill i was chatting with some of my irish ruuger mates and i made a comment about this weekends ref being joubert which is awesome cos hes the best ref around and as long as its not wayne barnes, i dont really give a shit and my mate then said offhand, yeah he might get another paid holiday, after asking him to slaborate, i was shocked to hear him confirm most of what this other blogger had said and i am now currently investigating it very very thoroughly, but here is the general jist of it and maybe u and others can do some digging of ur own, cos u wont beleiev it if i say it.

basically, after the 2007 RWC barnes went on an all expenses paid holiday. where that holiday was and who paid for that holiday will blow u away, but not as much as why that info was only released last year now its a matter of getting all my ducks in a row before goign wide with this,,,,,unless ben10s illuminati come after me, LMAO, :oP

WF
wfunstonRookie89 posts
19 Oct 2012, 03:08
#20
19 Oct 2012, 03:08#20

Beeno, 

 

Your conspiracy theory adds up; all but for one piece of the puzzle. The Wallabies had just beaten a full strength AB team and were without a doubt the main threat to the AB's NOT the Springboks. Goes to show how arrogant/ignorant you are being. If it truly was a conspiracy, I have no doubt BL would've handed the game to the boks to ensure an easy win for the AB's   

 

P.s ~ If you're looking for the worst ref performance ever then watch the 2007 QF between NZ and FRA..

 

The All Blacks had 73 per cent of the territorial advantage, won 166 rucks to 42 and made only 73 tackles compared with 331 made by France!

From his own analysis of the match, Henry says Barnes missed 40 penalty infringements by France and that if New Zealand had got all the penalties they deserved, the final score would have been 42-3 or 42-6: “The All Blacks didn’t get a penalty for the last 60 minutes of the game and attacked over 70 per cent of that time.”

 

These stats feel a bit more like match fixing to me, however there is no proof.

 

Beeno, now you can believe me when I tell you I know how it feels.

 

Truth is, if the ab's (in 2007) and the boks (in 2011) had played better, the ref would've become null and void. GET OVER IT 

AB
All Black NZClub Pro105 posts
19 Oct 2012, 04:58
#21
19 Oct 2012, 04:58#21

Well done Sasuke and Wfunston  At last a couple of postings that make sense and should (but won't) end this discussion. I couldn't of said it better myself. 

PO
polyboyClub Pro601 posts
19 Oct 2012, 05:25
#22
19 Oct 2012, 05:25#22

Beeno1 and Clevermike whats to be gained by dragging this out other than trying to explain why the Boks did not win the RWC, we hear conspiracy or excuses constantly after every loss by the Boks..from the fans...the players are quite good losers.  If the Boks were diddled, then why have they struggled to establish a post RWC winning streak, could it be that B Lawrence has reffed every game they've played???  The Boks should've put that RWC game out of the refs hands...they didn't...move on.  And no I did not think he deserved the award. The Boks will bounce back, and it'll be good for world rugby.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Oct 2012, 08:28
#23
19 Oct 2012, 08:28#23

I want to state clearly that there is a vast difference between what Beeno is on about on this issue and what I said in my postings.   In essence I am not dealing with what actually happened in the games in question in the 2011 WC - but rather what happened subsequently in the Lawrence case.

Instead of answering and commenting on that - only Sasu and All Blacknblue dealt with the issues raised by me as to serious ethical issues pertaining to the conduct of the NZRB - the rest went for Barnes about what happened in France in 2007 - an issue not really at all applicable to what I posted.    Barnes made serious mistakes in 2007 - that is definitely so -  but the IRB did not act against him - as was the case with Lawrence.   If Henry really had a case - he should have objected and asked for the removal of Barnes from the IRB panel of referees.    I am sure there is general agreement that deficient referees should not be allowed to ref games on international level in particular - but on any level whatsoever..

Nothing happened in the Barnes case and he continued to referee games up to now.   I for one would have been in support of actions taken against him - because his refereeing was not up to standard.    However,  it is accepted that Barnes was really bad in reffing that game in 2007 does not justify similar conduct by Lawrence in 2011.   It is like saying -  since Barnes is a thief , there is full justification for Lawrence to be one as well.    In law that type of excuse has no merit whatsoever.

The questions raised by me relates to a completely different aspect - namely the subsequent actions of the NZRB.   The issue of the awarding of the referee of the year for 2011 to Lawrence - despite his removal from  the IRB Panel - is really not acceptable as logical and Sasu did explain it in some detail.   There were apparently serious reservations about that  in New Zealand in any event, since it can be regarded as  somewhat bad and what I would call a diplomatic blunder in this case.   However, it did not entail any actual money changing hands.

However, the real issue here is completely missed by most posters and that is the latest appointment of Lawrence to head the New Zealand programme for excellence for referees.   That appointment in fact was not done on merit and I gave supporting evidence for the latter statement clearly in my earlier posts.   It may still be possible to justify the largely ceremonial award made in 2011 to Lawrence - but to then put him despite his history of failure  in a position where he is well-remunerated is an entirely different issue at all.

After all a referee is removed by the IRB from the panel of referees and then sent for psychological programme for rehabilitation to recover his confidence.   He comes back and bugger up completely a Super 15 game involving the Crusaders - ask Blackadder about that one.   Despite a history littered with poor refereeing - Lawrence is appointed to a well-payed job.   That type of conduct is not ethical to say the least and could lead to real deductions that it was done for ulteriror reasons.

I want to deal first with the legal issue here first and quote an example in another field.   President Zuma appointed a person with a tainted history as head of the NPA - and that matter was taken through court up to the highest level in SA - namely the Constitutional Court.   The appointment was nullified by the latter court on the basis that the President did not apply  his mind logically to the said appointment.   Did the NZRB applied their minds to the appointment of Lawrence?   If they did not - what was the motivation then?

There is really a major problem here with a direct impact on World Rugby.   There are already serious reservations about New Zealand referees insofar as performance is concerned.   The only referee with any real merit is Walsh - the rest are not up to standard.   The issue here is that a FAILED referee is appointed to head a body that should deal with development of referees that could also be used to augment the international pool of referees.   What was done in this case would add no value to development of referees for the benefit of New Zealand rugby in particular - but also world rugby in general.

It was argued that New Zealand really have problems with referee development and that Lawrence was appointed because on the basis that he is the best of a bad lot,   There is in fact no reason for such an appointment on merit - they could get a better quality referee from another country to take up the position if they cannot found a suitable local.

Let me put it bluntly - the latest appointment of Lawrence - following a controversial award in 2011 - can at best be described as a poor decision by the NZRB - at worst as a totally unethical act that stinks to high heaven (even of corruption) that in a legal sense could be criticized and painted into the nasty corner of paynent for services rendered.   If this type of thing happened in SA - the courts would have thrown it out completely and the issue of ethics would come into the picture during the judgement.

Members may not like the issues raised by me - but I think there are real issues here about Lawrence and the circumstances leading to his latest appointment..   In any event the issue was first raised by nukefreekiwi with a blatant attack on SA and its people and that stirred the hornets nest and led to what followed.                           

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
19 Oct 2012, 10:01
#24
19 Oct 2012, 10:01#24

...what are you really trying to say though not so clever mike, cmon man spit it out...you could give it to us in a nutshell haha...

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Oct 2012, 10:20
#25
19 Oct 2012, 10:20#25

Brycy

Let me put it bluntly - the appointment of an incompetent in a position like is the case with Lawrence can only be based on two issues - both legally unethical and unacceptable.   At best it is a serious ethical issue - at worst it entails corruption to keep Lawrence quiet about issues    In both cases the NZRB should be in the dock answering questions as to why it was done. 

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
19 Oct 2012, 11:02
#26
19 Oct 2012, 11:02#26

..bro its Rt Honourable Sir Brycy Lawrence to you after the knighthood for services to rugby....and the bible says get yr own house in order ....

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
19 Oct 2012, 11:06
#27
19 Oct 2012, 11:06#27

One thing nz should understand is that there was widespread condemnation of BL as a ref - not only from SA. Search the web and see for yourself.

Also regarding Waynes Barnes he made mistakes but nothing on the scale of BL.

I will also be blunt a forensic audit of BL and Paddy etc needs to be done. Noakes is correct in what he says. Sorry but I will never think nz deserved to win the wc. I have no complaints about other world cups but this one was a shocker and at the root of the shameles were nz.

Anyhow action was taken by the IRB even if behind closed doors. Nz arrogance- as witnessed by making BL their ref of the year - was exposed and now to crown matters - as Mike has explained - BL has been given this new  job!!  Amazing stuff really!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Clean up your act nz. The IRB itself should also be more transparrent. As it stands one really wonders if nz should not be stripped of the tittle. That could only be estblished if a full investigation was done by way of a judicial enquiry. I am afraid though we will never know as the matter is now behind the IRB.

 

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
19 Oct 2012, 11:13
#28
19 Oct 2012, 11:13#28

Bean brain good to see someone promoting red nose day which raises money for sick children so am expecting a big fat donation from you mate...

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
19 Oct 2012, 11:39
#29
19 Oct 2012, 11:39#29

brycy my friend you may be childish but sady are not  a child! Hahahahahaha

Anyhow lets leave the BL saga. It was a very dark moment in rugby history and hopefully the IRB have wised up to the nz approach to the game and nz now know they are under scrutiny. One can only wonder though what effect BL will have on future nz ref

 

 

NA
Nzbro All BlackRookie16 posts
19 Oct 2012, 11:39
#30
19 Oct 2012, 11:39#30

 oh dear ..here we go again. "cry me a river boks" only losers blame somebody else for their errors:

Here are the 13 reasons why you lost as per your very own's analysis. 

refer :  http://blogs.sport24.co.za/mclook/2011/10/09/thirteen-reasons-why-we-lost/ 

1 Taking on the best in the world with a bunch of inexperienced coaches 
2 Rule interpretation changes in 2009 
3 Payback for 4 years of not running with the ball 
4 No innovation 
5 Lack of leadership 
6 Strategically ignorant 
7 Lack of attention to detail 
8 Sub-standard rucking skills 
9 Poor player management 
10 Over-reliance on senior players 
11 Injuries to key players 
12 Lack of speed 
13 Not attacking space 
plus my personal favourite .....No 14- fouling a player in your own 22 ( Danie Russow on radike samo ) 
plus No 15 ----- 70% territory 60% possession with no results. 

But you boks will all blame the ref instead aye, Its easier than fixing the problem like your gameplan and player skills. .................(shakes head)

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Oct 2012, 11:56
#31
19 Oct 2012, 11:56#31

Brycy

Was he really knighted by Her Majesty - based on a reommendation by the New Zealand Government?  If so - than the system is really CORRUPT.  I hate corruption in SA - and I never expected it in New Zeaand.   But this is really much worse and on a much higher level than I ever dreamt about.  Service to Rugby - my ass - maybe service to New Zealand Rugby in an extremely questionable way.

I am not in any event dealing with the issue of the WC game in 2011 - what I really worry about is the future of Rugby refereeing and damage to the game by irresponsible people.  That is the crux of the matter insofar as I am concerned.    

I have forgiven Bryce Lawrence a long time ago - what was done cannot be undone - but the situation is really more serious with a much wider impact than you may think. 

NA
Nzbro All BlackRookie16 posts
19 Oct 2012, 12:04
#32
19 Oct 2012, 12:04#32

 And boks you will all be very happy to know that Bryce Lawrence will not really be retired and sitting at home. He will continue to coach referees . A man of such skill should not be wasted at home but used to apply his years of skill & experience. 

Your problem boks is that you all believe yourselves to be world beaters but if you look at your stats, you are NOT and never was. 

A world beater does NOT aquire the No 1 status TWICE ! in a rwc and loses it immediatlly after the first Tri nations match to the better team ( All Blacks )

The 1995 rwc was won by the boks under dodgy circumstances as well but none of you wanted to hear a stitch of it..

To this day you are all in denial of what happened to our All Blacks in 1995. Throughout  that 1995 rwc tournament the boks were losing and playing poorly and on a downward spiral and suddenly they turn out as the overall winners ?  with the All Blacks players  vomiting all over the sidelines ?  come on !

I was there in 95 and could not believe my eyes !

In 2007 I was there again & you only won it because you never needed to face Oz or NZ so it was yours to lose to much weaker teams.

The Tri nations that commenced after 2007 rwc the boks lost their title as No1. Why ? Because they were NOT the best team in the world and TODAY IN 2012 ARE STILL NOT   the best team in the world.

That is your reality boks. so stop blaming everybody else for your weakeness and lack of skill against the better teams.

Bryce Lawrence :

did not have the 70% ball possesion,

did not do the forward passes,

did not pull down radike samo in your 22,

did not commit all your errors !

Your team did all of that in 80 minutes and you are too stupid / blind to see where the error really lies or you suffer from selective viewing.

Get over yourselves. surely all of you cant be that thick as a plank!

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Oct 2012, 12:09
#33
19 Oct 2012, 12:09#33

NZbro All Black

It may sound funny - but I have stated much the same reasons for the loss by the Springboks that you have given.  I have no problem with your interpretation at all.

However. what I do raise and nobody really want to answer is the wider impact of the conduct of New Zealand as to subsequent rewarding of Lawrence "for services rendered" and the impact it can have in referee development in New Zealand in particular and in rgw qorld in general.   That is a real mess and utterly disgraceful:-

*   Referee of the Year for 2011

*   Appointment to a paid job he is patently incapabale for - nice salary included

*   Knighthood for services "rendered to rugby"

That really  shows utterly disgraceful contempt for morally accepted values of decent people.   

You later on refer to Lawrence is a person with "his skill" sitting at home?   What skill are you talking about?   He messed up many games by incompetence and that is really recognised by many people all over the world - inclusive of New Zealand.   Is he going to train referees to be as incompetent as he was?   That I am afraid is the only way possible with him 

Is he being rewarded for services rendered to New Zealand Rugby?   Am not aware of any other referee ever been knighted under such dubious circumstances.  

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
19 Oct 2012, 12:19
#34
19 Oct 2012, 12:19#34

Knighthood, Brycy you are mistaking the sword coming down to decapitate wee BL for a knighthood!!

As for nzbro - his head is buried deep in the sand. Brain affected by lack of oxygen! Bwahahahahahahhaha

For the sake of our embarrassed kiwi friends perhaps this matter should be shelved.

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
19 Oct 2012, 12:24
#35
19 Oct 2012, 12:24#35

Bean Brain , we all know you yarpies have all got a diamond mine in yr backyard so how about digging deep in yr pockets for red nose day and Cure Kids....

BO
BonganiPClub Pro229 posts
19 Oct 2012, 12:28
#36
19 Oct 2012, 12:28#36

Hahahaha what a joke. Start a thread with an elaborate conspiracty theory, and then a day later, and out fo the blue make this remark:

"Anyhow lets leave the BL saga. It was a very dark moment in rugby history and hopefully the IRB have wised up to the nz approach to the game and nz now know they are under scrutiny."

 

WTF? If you wanted to leave it, why bring it up in the frist place?

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Oct 2012, 12:31
#37
19 Oct 2012, 12:31#37

Beeno

The New Zealand  members on this site started the discussion off by an unbridaled attack on SA and its people by one of the members.   That was totally uncalled for and it now got all members from New Zealand into a situation where they are really embarrassed.   I don.t think any further comment will serve any  purpose - so I agree lets shelf this issue.

Most of the New Zealand members of the site are decent and nice people and I do not want to see them ostracized - I would much rather continuing discussing  rugby issues on a civil and objective basis  - not dubious rugby history.

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
19 Oct 2012, 12:38
#38
19 Oct 2012, 12:38#38

....nah lets keep talking about yr dubious history ...karmas a bitch

NA
Nzbro All BlackRookie16 posts
19 Oct 2012, 12:44
#39
19 Oct 2012, 12:44#39

 ""Knighthood for services "rendered to rugby" ??

That is not something that I am aware of. I think you were told a porky matey or a malicious rumour.It was only Sir GH and Sir J Kirwin awarded the honour recently in rugby.

The referee of the year had criteria that recognised all of Bryce's  games ,not just the one the boks lost.

His years experience was also taken into account for his appointment as Ref coach Im sure and not the poor sportsmanship critisism of a country 20 000 km away who will have no impact on his performance here anyway. ( its funny none of you mention the poor reffing of alain rolland in the soweto match October 6th who only penalised the boks after 55 minutes of witnessing their blatant infringments  and NO penalities,?)

Rolland was doing everything to gift the match to you boks but your poor skills again failed to take advantage of that and in spite of rolland's efforts in your favour it was the All Blacks superior skill & discipline that won the game for them no matter what the ref did. THAT is what the boks failed at in the RWC 2011 against Oz but its easier to blame bryce

 

"That really  shows utterly disgraceful contempt for morally accepted values of decent people."

That comment I find amusing when I think of the old days (1970's/ 80's ) when the saffa refs blatantly showed utter disgraceful contempt for morally accepted values of decent people in their rulings  of the match. Today the saffa media  ( in particular News 24.com ) still show  disgraceful contempt for morally accepted values of decent people by deleting NON OFFENSIVE comments that challenge their points of view in particulr on the subject of one Bryce Lawrence plus a few other topics .

I conclude therefore that saffas have double standards according to which side of the fence they choose depending on a loss or gain. Therefore Morally accepted values of decent people does not apply to you and you should not demand it in return until you learn to apply it correctly.

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
19 Oct 2012, 12:51
#40
19 Oct 2012, 12:51#40

 

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