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FORUM / RUGBY /  Bok Barometer....test strength

Bok Barometer....test strength

Started by Mozart56 REPLIES1,132 VIEWS· 22 May 2016, 01:04
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MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 May 2016, 01:04
#1
22 May 2016, 01:04#1
As we get close to playing Ireland, it's more interesting to propose a test team rather than a weekly form team. 
Please note this is a team to play Ireland. We will need to find more pace at centre by the RC. Also I choose Pienaar reluctantly, hoping perhaps Faf will emerge....but he needs time off the bench. We are desperately thin at 9. 
I take Kitshof's form on faith. Here's my team:
WillieJPAllendeEsterhozenCombrinkLambiePienaarMalherbeStraussKitshoffEtzebethSnymanKrielKirstenVermeulen
Subs:
KolbeJantjiesFafBeastAcker Van Der MerweMarcel Van der MerweStephanieSchalk
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 May 2016, 06:53
#2
22 May 2016, 06:53#2
Who will be the flyhalfs in this case since with Pienaar around it is likely to be either 6, 7 or 8 with 10 the fourth player in line to be flyhalf.  
Burger is a definite No-No.   He failed at flyhalf before and he did the same yesterday.   The moment the Stormers cuts out the forwards being first receivers from the scrummie De Allende scored with ease.   A sick system to which you subscribe fully.          
CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
22 May 2016, 09:54
#3
22 May 2016, 09:54#3
 Soooo this team of yours is based on ............ what???
The Stormers scrum set piece was dominated last night ... yet you have their front row in ... ??
No place for Marcell based on last night's demolition job on Kebble? Is that based on your dislike of Dave?
No place for Redelinghuyse at all ... ???
What about Thomas Du Toit?
Hmmmmmm ... puzzling? 
No PSDT? 
Are we watching the same matches, Mozart?
I thought Eben was a little off colour last night (he makes your starting 15) ... whilst PSDT had a cracker ... again (and he barely scrapes the bench's). 
Pienaar is as poor as they come. He doesn't deserve to be mentioned ... EVER ... your prejudice is showing itself again ... 
You select the useless Willie based on his showing against the pathetic Kings ... ? Is that fair?
I see Esterhuisen also cracks the nod ... instead of the deserving Mnisi ... ?? 
Come now Mozart ... be objective ... select the best ... not your favourites ... 
Isn't that the point of it all ... ?
  
 

CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 May 2016, 10:10
#4
22 May 2016, 10:10#4
CC 
With Mozart performances count for Zip - zero.  That is why he would put in the below par Burger ahead of Whiteley.   Pienaar was a disaster in the WC - but he has to be in.    He then went on about putting De Allende at 13 - where he was not successful in the past.
I would not play Mnisi at 12 - he is good in attack - but one of the worst defending centers in SA.   For example Crotty just ran past him in the Crusaders game repeatedly.
Mozart team selection is always a sick joke - partly because of prejudice - and partly because he supports a sick game plan - a very sick one in fact.   He believes teams must never use their backlines and he admires the using of forwards and especially loosies to play at 10 and bugger up backline play.               
CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
22 May 2016, 10:37
#5
22 May 2016, 10:37#5
 Well Mike .. Mnisi is a good player but I would never suggest he play for the Boks. He did however have a cracker yesterday and I personally thought he deserved to be mentioned in Mozart's team ahead of Esterhuisen.
Not sure what De Allende is doing at 13? Has he ever produced anything positive there? Does his performance at 12 warrant the Bok 13 jersey ... ?? I think not.
Burger is a favourite of Mozart's and will probably be included in the Bok mix till he's 102 ... toothless ... with a lonesome chipped marble rolling around in his empty skull.
There's no objectivity.
How one's supposed debate selections like this is beyond me.
Both teams have adopted Meyer's game plan ... and that is to take the 10's completely out of play.
Give it to a brain dead forward to crash ball all match long.
It kills any options they may have available to them. Easy to read ... easy to neutralise.
Thank God the Lions haven't copied their stupidity.





 

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 May 2016, 13:52
#6
22 May 2016, 13:52#6
 You seem a bit confused CC....is it form or class that dominates your thinking? Mike is consumed with pulsating jealousy, so I ignore his comments.  Let me try and explain my reasoning.
Willie has never let the Boks down and is the experienced choice, no other candidate has made a strong case.
JP has lost a lot of pace, but still makes some key contributions, Combrink is new....so having one experienced wing might make sense.

None of our centres impress me at this point, so I have gone for a power combination. Esterhozen is not a great defender but he brings up the defensive line better than Allende and offloads well in the tackle. The latter is our only centre who has a prayer of cracking top defenses. He has played wing and outside Jean....he could be better at 13.
Lambie who I don't like, ahead of Jantjies, based on kicking and defence. Jantjies seems very edgy again.
Pienaar because Faf the only alternative was really rattled against the Landers....he needs bench time, not all the responsibility immediately.
Forwards
Marcel or Malherbe. Not convinced about either, but Malherbe has yielded less penalties over the tournament. Marcel comes up under pressure....Marais put him away like that, and the one penalty he yielded yesterday came from being popped. He did dominate Kebble the second choice Stormers loosehead, but has also struggled ....Malherbe gets the nod. Redlinghuis was really hammered in his test appearance.
If Bismarck is available he might crack the starting hooker slot.

Loosehead, I really liked what I saw of Marais but he seems to have gone off the boil. Thomas du Toit is a huge lad, but has never translated that into dominant scrumming against top opponents. He needs to show that. Kitshoff was our best scrumming loosehead last year and the cornerstone of a dominant Stormers scrum.
Etzebeth was the dominant lock before he got hurt, not match sharp, it has taken him a few games in the past....but he is easily our best 4. Lomp is overrated and in poor form. Stephanie has had good games, yesterday was not one of them. Snyman, head to head was better and took a lineout off him....he is a bigger lad and I like the Etzebeth/Snyman combination.
In the loosies one of Whiteley or Kriel merited a start. Starting both gives up too much grunt for tests. I chose Kriel because Vermeulen is one of the top 8th men on the planet.
That leaves Schalk who is still a contributor but slowing down. If the du Preez's had better hands this would be their entry point.

It's a team that somewhat favors form, but also values experience. It's designed to play the rugby we saw in the Bools game......because as I have often said we will never beat the ABs at their own game. They are the only side in world rugby which does so successfully...and they have huge backline resources.

SH
Shezza
Pro2,471 posts
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
22 May 2016, 14:01
#7
22 May 2016, 14:01#7
 Mapoe?
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 May 2016, 14:08
#8
22 May 2016, 14:08#8
 I thought about Mapoe because he has had some fine games based on clever rugby instincts. If he got the nod ahead of Allende, it wouldn't be unreasonable. Still he got rather easily stripped yesterday, and he doesn't seem to have a compelling physical credential...pace or strength. My guess is tests would be a bridge too far.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 May 2016, 14:24
#9
22 May 2016, 14:24#9
There is nothing jealous about my comments.  It is in line with performances - not the type of junk you come up with.   The two games De Allende played outside of De Villiers against Argentina De Allende was not successful.   The real reason was -ropbably that our props were in full retreat in scrumming and when the backline did get the ball it was by accident.   Pienaar was the scrummie that day.   He passed the ball 34 times that day - ten of which went to the flyhalf.   
De Allende that day got the ball 10 times mainly from turnovers and carried it 54 meters, Making 1 line break and beating two defenders.   None of his carries resulted from constructive play by De Villiers, who crashballed every time he got the ball making 2,5 meters per carry on average.  The same happened in the second test.   De Villiers was not really up to standard in both games.
De Allende will be wasted at 13.   That type of thing is normally neutralized by n ineffective 12.   Esterhuizen is a better version of Fat Fransie, but he is not the answer at all.       
What do you base your selection of Pienaar on?   He was very, very poor in the WC and is useless at best.   He may be good enough for NH club rugby - but is totally ineffetive in tests.
As you often said - you prefer the neutralization of the backline completely and supports the concept of passing balls back to the forwards.   So why bother with having a backline - but for tackling the opposition players.
The game we saw in the Bulls game was the same BS we dished up in the Japan test and in the rest of the WC.   You cannot just use the forwards to get balls for you and then waste their efforts by BS plays afterwards.                    
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 May 2016, 14:27
#10
22 May 2016, 14:27#10
For the moment I have you on Mute Tokkie. If you stop the hysterical attacks, I will respond accordingly.
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 May 2016, 14:44
#11
22 May 2016, 14:44#11
 @Mike. Mate, you fall short in your arguments time and time again and there is a simple explanation for that. You always, yes always, play the man and not the ball. Moz has just answered CC and defended all of his choices, after CC questioned his choices. No harm done. Would be interesting to see how and where CC still disagree with him. Could turn into an interesting debate.
The way in which you questioned Moz' choices does not warrant any form of reaction from Moz. You have basically just rubbished every choice of his by declaring that this, that and the other is just as crap as this that and the other (in your own opinion). Why not come up with alternatives and motivate your choices in the same way. 
You are a typical opposition politician. Typical opposition politicians' first port of call is invariably to attack the guys in power and rubbishing their policies/ideas and hardly ever offer an alternative. Quality opposition politicians normally win elections and unseats the ruling guys. Typical ones remain opposition politicians for their entire political careers.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 May 2016, 14:52
#12
22 May 2016, 14:52#12
 Actually with the emergence of Snyman and Kirsten, a classical Bok 7 type in the Juan Smith mode, I'm quite encouraged by that pack. Vermeulen and Kirsten provide a lot of grunt and Kriel on the deck play. Two giant, physical locks with lots of skills...and the Stormers 2015 front row with Proudfoot to coach them. Adding Bismarck or Strauss at hooker should only enhance what was a very decent scrummaging front row.
MD
Monkey D Luffy
Pro6,277 posts
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
22 May 2016, 18:33
#13
22 May 2016, 18:33#13
uzumaki clan Bok team to play ireland

1 s kitshoff, 2 p du plesiss, 3 f malherbe

4 PTSD, 5 e elizabeth

6 j kreil , 8 d vermeulen, 7 j du preez

9 f de klerk, 10 e janties

12 j serfontein, 13 l mapoe

11 w le roux, 15 j kreil, 14 d de allende

16 a strauss, 17 t nyakane. 18 m van der mewe, 19 rg snyman, 20 r du preez, 21 r paige, 22 p lambie, 23 jp pieterson

powerful tight 5, powerful looseforwards and a backline who will thrive with all the ball they should be winning upfront.

would prob add more mobility come the RC, but this team will be more than enough to beat the fighting irish.

of all the players, janties is the one that is the most important. he needs to start all three tests vs ireland in order to get some top test level game time heading into the RC.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 May 2016, 18:44
#14
22 May 2016, 18:44#14
 Serfontein was out sprinted by Carr yesterday and literally gained zero metres against the Stormers.  Allende looked far better.
Jantjies seems to be slipping deeper into a kicking funk.

Coetzee is injured
MD
Monkey D Luffy
Pro6,277 posts
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
22 May 2016, 19:34
#15
22 May 2016, 19:34#15
@mozzy,

"Serfontein was out sprinted by Carr yesterday and literally gained zero metres against the Stormers.  Allende looked far better."

a bookshouldnt be judged by its cover and rugby players shouldnt be judged by a game.

serfontein is a quality 12 whos deceptively powerful in contact.

on behalf of serfontein, i would like to request u give him an iota of the latitude u gave matfeild and the geriatric brigade.
investing ur faith in serfontein will help repair the damage to ur rugby credit rating, a rating that matfield, meyer and co crippled.

"Jantjies seems to be slipping deeper into a kicking funk."
i understand how important kicking is to south africans so ill go easy on u,

we all know janties is a quality kicker, but i dont seee anything to be worried about.
what i suggest u look at though is the way he attacks the line, the execution of his ball in hand game and exceptional play making abilities.
everything he does regularly at the lions, he can do for the Boks, but remember rome wasnt built in a day, thats why gametime is important.

"Coetzee is injured"

j kreil staright into the starting 15 instead.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 May 2016, 19:52
#16
22 May 2016, 19:52#16
You may be right Sushi, it's a matter of opinion. Let me just say for Jantjies to attack the line he has to have space....that allows him to set up the conundrum he thrives on. The Canes provided a clear blueprint of how to resolve that....take away the space.
He may be okay against Ireland, but NZ or Oz are going to rattle his cage. And once he loses confidence his kicking  accuracy plummets.

If we are going to try this, I hope we do it soon.
WI
Winesy83
Rookie15 posts
WI
Winesy83Rookie15 posts
22 May 2016, 22:18
#17
22 May 2016, 22:18#17
 What I find odd about about the Jantjies needs time and space argument is that none of our other tens seem to be able to threaten the line regardless of time. Surely it's better to have a sporadic talent than a non entity.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 May 2016, 22:55
#18
22 May 2016, 22:55#18
 Winesy you need a nice glass of Vin de Constance, Pollard has always attacked the line effectively. Lambie is more of a kicking flyhalf in my view. And then there a bunch of youngsters of whom April has been most impressive ball in hand.
Jantjies plays with a complicated model, run, kick or pass....there are lots of decisions to be made. So if he gets a bit scrambled, the fall off can be significant.
But it's just an opinion....welcome to Ruckers, hope you enjoy yourself here.
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,270 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,270 posts
22 May 2016, 23:28
#19
22 May 2016, 23:28#19
I am dubious about Jantjies- but probably more dubious of the other options.

My reservation of Jantjies is when he has no space or time- and if he wil play the game plan required for the Springbok Coach. Jantjies was not exactly a house of fire in his time at the Stormers with Coetzee.

If the Boks are more expansive Jantjies could make the position his own.

Bulls
The injured Pollard lacks any form of a tactical kicking game. He is also taking the ball at the same flat line all of the time- and not varying his options. Although that could be the meyer game plan. The reserve flyhalfs should be preparing the oranges.

Lambie is solid- but his backline rarely seems to run well with him at 10. When he plays at 15 he seems to get more involved in the attacking game. He is poor in contact and its running direct too often.

Stormers
Duplessis has seemed rattled in his recent games. Although having a loose forward in the team that also  plays at 10 at the same time must take some time getting used to.

Dupreez was an averge if consistent performer so far.

Cheetas-
average at best.

Kings -
The 130 kg flyhalf they have is hopeless.

The only 2 realistic options for the Irish tests are Jantjies and Lambie.
Jantjies is the form player- with Lambie the more test experienced.
I would start with Jantjies and bring Lambie off the bench.


MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 May 2016, 00:13
#20
23 May 2016, 00:13#20
 Jantjies may be the form player, but Lambie is the form kicker....probably worth 6 points a game from the boot. Defence also has to go to Lambie. For me Jantjies has been very good in the Lions wins and a reason the Lions lost when they did. How does one balance that.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 May 2016, 00:14
#21
23 May 2016, 00:14#21
Repeat.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 May 2016, 08:16
#22
23 May 2016, 08:16#22
 I must admit SB is very near to the mark here.   The game plan of both the Bulls and the Stormers is a disaster - which caused both teams to under-perform in their recent matches.   
The idea that the loosies are stand-in flyhalfs is absurd and a waste of valuable ball  possession.  The same happened in the case of the Sunwolves game as well as the Waratahs game.   A crazy game plan where the backline players are carrying the oranges and are there to defend only.  
Why the Stormers just not do the obvious and select Burger at flyhalf is a weird situation.              
PL
Plum
Captain21,007 posts
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
23 May 2016, 10:23
#23
23 May 2016, 10:23#23
@Moz The only game where Jantjies "fell apart" was a game where the opposition were continually off side. This was even mentioned by the commentator's after. Further, this weekend saw poor kicking from all SA 10S. Another thing, regarding Jantjies kicking falling off when he is under pressure. This past weekend was probably his worst performance off the tee. Yet he was under no pressure...and even Combrink kicked poorly when he took over. I don't think the above can be used to say he doesn't deserve the Bok 10 Jersey. Again, name any SA 10 who has been so consistent over the last two season. Nobody comes even close. That's the reality of it. Starting anyone ahead of Jantjies will amount to nothing more than a reputation/speculative selection. At some point we hqve to accept that Jantjies is the least "hot and cold" 10 we have. This "mercurial" tag he seems to have is based on a time three years ago, when he was a younger man, less experienced nice and poorly coached. Saying that, I do understand how fans have selective memories. Ruan Pienaar? You hqve got to be kidding guy. Faf is in the same boat as Jantjies. Extremely consistent at 9 for two years now...as opposed to Pienaar who hasn't had a good game for the Boks since, well wince forever. I cannot understand your reasoning here. Also, Mapoe and Combrink have to be in the squad. Similarly, selecting other players over them amounts ro reputation selections. Unless we expect those players to play themselves into form in tests. (Luckily you've seen the Combrink light) Have no complaints about your starting loosies. Redlinghuys is.far and away the best in his position though...and manages to get to more rucks than his opposite number too. Strauss does not deserve to be at 2 until he improves. Even Akker is out playing him these days. More steals, less penalties and probably an equal scrummager. A million times more mobile and reads the game very well. Often makes crucial tackles. Also holds the ball up like a monster. Though I would select Skara or Marx ahead of both of them(personal preference). Schalk would also not be a merit selection. He does get through work but a lot of that work amounts to nothing. Maybe a bench player since he does know the game better than most. But Schalk at 10? Please please never again. All in all I wpuld say that we have some exciting young talent and picking the best of that talent now will be in our best interest, even if we struggle for the first season. My bet is that even if we pick a very young team we will do no worse than we did under Meyer and will only improve from there. Whiteley is a problem for me. Something about him does not sit right. Maybe it's that he doesn't seem as solid as Duane, I don't know. But then, week after week he puts in pure legendary performances. I want to include him and on form probably should. Players like Snyman, Kirsten, Koch, Galant, Jamba, Faf, Sergeal, Skara and Marx and others need to be brought into the Bok setup now and nurtured because years down the line they could easily be considered part of an all time best Bok team. Just my opinion. I am certainly on the side that thinks we defos match and likely are better in the amount of potential world beating young players we currently have, as compared to NZ. Luckily if Coetzee does Fkup Akkerman will get these players while still in their mid twenties. Not that I know everything about Coetzee but he does seem to be a guy who favors form/talent...mostly(exclude De Jongh here) so, though I know he is not selecting the side, I think he'll support the young guys. I also think he has a good relationship with Jantjies and mentored him during a horrible time in his life. Question is whether he tried to make Jantjies play in a way that he was not built for or whether he pruned the tree that has resulted in what we see today. Obviously I'd go with Akkerman/Cois most likely deserving the credit. Either way, Coetzee will support him..."hulle is mos bras eneways" :)
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 May 2016, 11:35
#24
23 May 2016, 11:35#24
 Plum
Mozart is totally off-balance when it comes to selections.  Based on form the rteam should be the following:-
15  Le Roux14  Combrinck13  Mapoe12  De Allende11  Pietersen10  Lambie 9  De Klerk 8  Vermeulen 7  Kirsten 6  Kriel 5  Du Toit 4  Etzebeth 3  Malherbe 2  Van der Merwe 1  Kitshoff
16  Marx/Bismarck17  Beast18  Redelinghuys19  Snyman/De Jager20  Labuschagne21  ???????22  Jantjies/Goosen23  Gelant
I am sure that Pienaar is wrong - but hesitates about the other scrummies.  The above team has another problem - not enough BEE selections.   I think the reserve scrummie will be one of those - although I hope it is not another fiasco like Paige.
I am always hesitant about Jantjies on international scene and is afraid he will fold badly like he did in the past.   
De Allende is coming back into form - his last to matches proved that.   I am also unhappy about Kirsten at 7 -  he has had his moments - but is really too slow to be a loosie.  Has very little ball sense too.   He may be tried at 7 - but I do not think it will work out.   Too much Alberts in him.   
CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
23 May 2016, 11:36
#25
23 May 2016, 11:36#25
 

Mozart ... I’m pleased you’ve kept a civil tone ... I will do the same ... as I do respect your knowledge and understanding of the game. You’re not a stupid man and I hope you’ll have an open mind to my views, as I do yours.


Now that I’ve kissed your arse ... let’s get to it ..


Firstly ... “ You seem a bit confused CC....is it form or class that dominates your thinking?”


In other words ... “form is temporary ... class is permanent” ... right?


That is a bullsh!t statement. Class vs form ... and to be honest I never thought I’d ever see you use it.


It’s usually used by those who find themselves on the back foot early on ... or by those who don’t really have a convincing argument.


I select according to form ... this seasons form ... not the form that was shown back in 2007 ... or even two years ago.


I want what’s hot now to be exposed to the world arena.


Danie Gerber is globally known as a class act. We all hale him as the best 13 the planet’s ever seen. He is known as such and rightly so ... however ... today ... this very minute ... he no longer qualifies for that title. His day came and went and because of it we’ve moved on ... selected other players to fill the 13 spot.


Therefore ... class is not a permanent thing. It fades away as the body ages ... it loses its lustre as the hunger dissipates.


Yes ... I do agree that form comes and goes ... but if one’s going to ignore it ... and rather select from those with a history of greatness ... no matter their form ... then we’ll not only end up losing matches to the likes of Japan ... but we’ll miss out on many possible Danie Gerbers.


We need the form player to win us the test match right now ... while he’s smoking ...


Not put our hopes in a player with a solid history ... sitting on the edge of our seat hoping he'll show the magic he once had.


I think your problem may be that you’re too conservative ... not really one for taking much risk ... rather secure the win with the tried and tested ... than venture out into the great beyond with those that show potential for greatness.


I’m not like that.


We have to build a team for the coming world cup. Many of your choices will be beyond their best by that time. Many have already passed their sell by date. Strauss for example is 31 now.  How old is the useless Pienaar?


We have three years to expose our young talent to test rugby. By that time they'll have 30, 40 test caps behind their names and will be considered in their prime. 


I believe that calculated risk is a good thing and that it has its place in rugby.

 

I believe we should be bold and show our young talent that we have confidence in them. Their current form and hunger will not let us down.


Your comments??




 

DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
23 May 2016, 11:39
#26
23 May 2016, 11:39#26
  1. 15 - Willie....OK, we can't field a brand new back line, so keep him.
  2. 14 - JP...Same as Willie and he seems to be solid enough.
  3. 13 - Allende...Should play at 12...Mapoe or Serf
  4. 12 - Esterhozen... DdA..
  5. 11 - Combrink...Our strongest contender.
  6. 10 - Lambie, I'm not sold yet. Jantjies deserves a start on current form.
  7. 9  - Pienaar....Nooit. Faf with Hougaart on the bench.
  8. 3  - Malherbe...OK, I still prefer Koch, but I can live with either. Trevor on the bench.
  9. 2  - Strauss...him or Bismarck with the Lions lad (Acker) getting lots of play from the bench.
  10. Kitshoff...Beast will probably start, but Kitsie should be in the mix.
  11. Etzebeth...goes without saying.
  12. Snyman...Nope, PSDT walks it, with Lood on the bench or vice versa.
  13. Kriel...OK
  14. Kirsten...I can live with that.
  15. Vermeulen...clear choice.

Subs:
  1. Kolbe....OK, I like Gelant better.
  2. Lambie.
  3. Hougaart.   We need a POC here
  4. Beast...probably starting with Kitsie on the bench.
  5. Acker Van Der Merwe...A must.
  6. Marcel Van der Merwe...He looked good this weekend, but he needs to show that form more consistent...Trevor, because he is good and POC
  7. Stephanie...Ill see him starting with Lood on the bench.
  8. If its a forward, Schalk, if a back I'll be controversial and pick kleintjie Carel. Car is closer to the right colour.

Even with the POC ajustments, we won't make the 50% target. My team's POC is very close to merit selections  anyway, but we are still a few short. Combrink and Willie will probably lose their places to POC's...Kitsie too.
CH
Chewbacca.
Rookie61 posts
CH
Chewbacca.Rookie61 posts
23 May 2016, 13:25
#27
23 May 2016, 13:25#27
Coetzee will want to make a clear statement on POC's and will have a difficult task to reach 50%. I have tried to get a 50% team together below - a lot of in form players have been left out to include POC's to be developed.

15. Lambie (Kicker)

14. Mvovo (Ulenga) - Will be a POC, not sure who will be “best”

13. Mapoe

12. de Allende

11. JP

10. Jantjies

9. Faf (To keep Lions pair)

8. Vermeulen

7. Kirsten

6. (Notche, Kolisi) - Will be a POC, not sure who will be “best”

5. Snyman (I like PSdT as impact from the bench, maybe even go so far as to cover 7 in a pinch J)

4. Etzebeth

3. Malherbe

2. Strauss (Akker would be great, maybe next year)

1. Beast


Reserves: 16. Nyakane 17. Marutlulle 18 (Koch, Marcel, etc) 18. PSdT 20. Kriel 21 Paige J 22. Combrinck 23. Gelant

If Colbe could be successfully re-purposed to play 9 that would be great.
Who would you choose as captain of the team? Strauss, Vermeulen, Lambie?
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 May 2016, 13:26
#28
23 May 2016, 13:26#28
 Mozart's standard attack against Du Toit was as expected.   He was going all out for Du Toit - blaming him for the problems the Stormers had in the Tight 5 and praising Snyman as being the top lock in the country together with Etzebeth - who had a very poor day at the office on Saturday. 
Burger was really poor as well - badly so to say the least.  He was a failure at flyhalf and whenever he was in the backline it just stymied the backline completely.
So just as an aside I looked at the Fantasy Rugby results as an indicator of what was produced by Du Toit and Snyman:-
Test Rugby   
Du Toit      -      255 pointsSnyman     -      205 points
Total this year
Du Toit      -     3390 pointsSnyman     -     2660 points
Foxsport
Du Toit      -       54 pointsSnyman     -       31 points
Although the points are not conclusive in all aspects of play - they do give a fair inication of the contribution made by player on the field of play.   In the past there was a tendency to support failures like Fat Fransie and Alberts whose poor performances was reflected in fantasy competitions as well and was reflected in tests they played in as well.   
Lets face facts - to select Snyman - a very good lock - ahead of Du Toit would be lunacy.   The performance difference as reflected above - is far to big to justify selecting Snyman ahead of Du Toit.  
      
CH
Chewbacca.
Rookie61 posts
CH
Chewbacca.Rookie61 posts
23 May 2016, 14:33
#29
23 May 2016, 14:33#29
@Mike
I rate PSdT a lot more than Snyman and he obviously have a lot more experience. The thing I am worried about is him getting injured again. I will not play him for a full 80 minutes therefore. 
I like him as an impact player but will not bat an eye if he starts and Snyman is benched.
What do you think about the rest of my proposed team?
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 May 2016, 15:14
#30
23 May 2016, 15:14#30
Chewbacca
I think I would look at combinations as well.   There are some players that I do not think would make the grade and unfortunately I think Jantjies is one of those. Goosen is playing top-class rugby for Racing Metro and I think it should be bornein mind if Jantjies is picked and go askew.   
We need a pacy loose forward combination and must be very vary of making the mistake of the past and only play slow-paced loosies.  All three you mentioned are not mobile players and the result is they turn up late at breakdown points and are not top bracket tacklers - their tackle count is low and in some atches below the tackle counts of the tight 5 players - with way too many missed tackles.  I think we need to have two pacy loosies if Vermeulen is the no 8.   Kriel at 6 is to my mind the definite.   However, they may start with the loosies you mentioned - but think that the system would break down as a result. 
Is Paige a scrummie?   He never is near the breakdown points and turn up late.  Does not follow the ball as the saying goes.   The Bulls is not starting with him because of that problem.   
Nyakane is no hooker - so I think your 16,17 and 18 is a bit problematic.
I would rather go with what Etzebeth think about his lock partner - he evidently prefer Du Toit.  Snyman and Etzebeth are very similar players - so I would start with Du Toit and have either of Snyman, Jacques du PLessis or Willemse on the bench. 
The problem with Vermeulen  and Strauss as captain is that neither of them will last through to the 2019 WC.   We should not make the Meyer mistake of selecting a captain now and find one in the dwang two or three years from now.  I personally like Lambie - he is a good leader - but e has serious competition from other players for both the flyhalf and full back positions.  He may end up being on the bench and that is not where a captain should be. The captain should be an absolute certainty for selection.
By the way I think the Bismark - Strauss era as hookers has passed and my personal preference as hookers are Van der Merwe and Marx.   Both playing for the Lions is not a good career move - if one of them played for another franchise the comparitive assessment of them as players would be easier.            
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 May 2016, 15:18
#31
23 May 2016, 15:18#31
 CC my point was not that form or class dominate, it was that most posters are form based when they like a player, and class based when they don't. Take your criticisms of my team. You don't think much of Esterhosen's class, but against the Kings he dominated the midfield. I actually chose him on form because Allende aside I see no long term choices at centre....and Coetzee has to find a way to neutralize Allende's defensive issues. 
I trade stocks and commodities in my dotage, risk is an every day part of my life. But I also value the lesson that not all risk works. Look at how many 'hot' young players have been tried and failed.....Taute, JJ, Kriel, Mvovo, Step, Goosen, Reinach, Coenie to name a few. There is a cost to not playing a talented player, but there is a cost to picking a future failure....a guy like JJ cost us a whole season. Step arguably cost us 2 seasons.
So my model is  the one that seems to work for NZ.....the nod goes to the established team, unless the the new player can make an undeniable case. Very few of the newbies being touted make an undeniable case.
Still if there is a year to experiment this is it...it's hard to do in the 3rd year of the cycle. I just wonder if the appetite will still be there if we lose to Ireland. The fans seem to want to take risks, as long as we don't lose. A hard ask.
CH
Chewbacca.
Rookie61 posts
CH
Chewbacca.Rookie61 posts
23 May 2016, 15:46
#32
23 May 2016, 15:46#32
To bring it back to Moz's original request is to list a team to face Ireland but the teams listed were not nearly "representative" enough. Coetzee also needs to decide if he wants to start from scratch or still include some players with experience (THor, JP, Straus in my team)
Jantjies is in form enough and will have to be tested under pressure in the test. If he fails then move Lambie or Goosen in. Seems like Goosen is doing well, if he comes into the team Combrinck will have to make way. 
I agree with your loosies argument, so the question is do we have POC that can play 7 or 8? If so bring Kriel in at 6 and take away Kirsten or Thor.
Paige is a dud but we have no scrumhalves putting there hands up atm, so if you are going to develop one it might aswell be a POC. I would experiment with Kolbe here but not this year and not starting in tests obviously.
Edgar Marutlulle is the hooker backup, I think he did well and is alot better than Bongi. Nyakane as prop reserve.
Agreed on captain and that is why Strauss is in. I think Akker and Marx is good but I think a uncapped POC will get preference to be blooded in against Ireland. So who will be your new captain? Who are we certain will be selected for every game till the WC, maybe Etzebeth, but as captain?
So in short, who will be your POC (40% atleast) team for Ireland and please indicate the captain?
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 May 2016, 16:09
#33
23 May 2016, 16:09#33
 Being able to choose a 26 year old, who is a consensus pick in his position and has the leadership  attributes to be captain....is a high bar.
Failing having a young Richie McCaw this is always going to be a compromise. John Smit was a compromise, not always being a consensus pick. 
This comes down to a choice between Strauss and Vermeulen. Strauss has a chance of making the next WC, with his neck Vermeulen is a long shot....but he is closer to best player in his position right now. 
You decide.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 May 2016, 16:16
#34
23 May 2016, 16:16#34
 Chewbacca
I do not think the 40% quota will be achieved this year without drastically weakening the team.   They may experiment with players against Ireland - but if they lose all hell will break lose.
If I have to go on form I would say the following players may be in the mix:-
Mtawarira, Nyakane, Mapoe. Murutllule - merit selectionsJP, Habana, Gelant, Jantjies, Kolisi -  very questionable performers at this stage of their careersMvovo, Paige, Mohoje - BS performers
I think thy would probably pick 8 or 9 of the above players and hope for the best.
15  Le Roux14  JP              *13  Mapoe        *12  De Allende   *11  Habana       *10  Lambie (c) 9   De Klerk 8   Vermeulen 7   Labuschagne 6   Kriel 5   Du Toit 4   Etzebeth 3   Malherbe 2   Van der Merwe 1   Mtawarira    *
16  Murutlulle     *17  Kitshoff18  Nyakane      *19  Snyman. Jacques Du Plessis/Willemse20  Notshe        *21  Hougaard22  Goosen 23  Combrinck 
That would represent near to what they can aim for this year.  If the team is a flop - and there is a serious chance it will be - there will be serious problems for all parties concerned.          


CH
Chewbacca.
Rookie61 posts
CH
Chewbacca.Rookie61 posts
23 May 2016, 20:41
#35
23 May 2016, 20:41#35
It would be interesting to see how that team will fair against Ireland with a balanced attack/defense gameplan.
With Elton out there is no need to debate him at ten. I am not a big Willie fan. He is very inconsistent. I guess it is partly influenced by the type of gameplan.
Pitty we don't have a young Habana.
CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
24 May 2016, 08:54
#36
24 May 2016, 08:54#36

Mozart ... your preference to select the tried and tested of yesteryear will not produce the desired results. All it does is keep the up and coming stars of tomorrow grounded and humiliate us at each and every test match.
You and you preferences were shown up match after match under Meyer's reign. 
Aren't you tired of hanging your head in shame?
Beaten by Wales, by Scotland and by Japan.  
Your list of so called "hot" players produced a chuckle I must say. 
Seriously ... did you ever think of Coenie as "hot" ... or how about Taute, JJ, Kriel, Goosen and Mvovo?
Perhaps they did it for you as far as "hot" goes ... I on the other hand found the whole lot sadly lacking. 
I guess you sided with Meyer on his choices there ... as we've heard countless times how you and he thought the same.
There's the difference between us ... 
Regarding Esterhuisen ... most teams have dominated the midfield against the Kings ... it's not much of a feat to be honest ... and based on that you've selected him as the Bok 12 ... seriously ?????????? ... pushing De Allende out of position to 13?
That is puzzling. 
Look at your choice at 9 ... Pienaar ... the slow cumbersome Pienaar ... who loves to run 5m before he offloads to I suppose Schalk Burger as first receiver ... ?? He's your Bok 9 ... seriously ??????? ... in place of Faff who's service from the base of the ruck is unmatched by any in the country. who out "classes" Pienaar in every way.
We are most definitely not on the same page, Mozart.
Meyer messed up the whole process by sticking to the tried and tested. 
He was incredibly ignorant in his choice of new blood. The Coenies of the world. Werner Kruger and the likes of Dean Greyling were his so called "hot" choices ... yeah they really lit the rugby world up ... 
Now we have a team of hasbeens ... all out of touch with the current era of play ... most haven't seen good form for a season or three ... there's no hunger left in them ... 
We have no alternative but to start afresh ... the so called season players that are still eligible for test rugby are guys like Vermeulen, Etzebeth, Malherbe and maybe Strauss.
No Schalk, no Beast, no Pienaar, no Flo, no JP, no Habana and no Matfield.
We have to start again ... build a team from scratch. The sooner we get to it the better.
 

 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 May 2016, 10:12
#37
24 May 2016, 10:12#37
 Don't be to harsh on Mozart - he lives in a rugby dreamworld where he has developed some ides which is so far removed from reality that it is even funny.  i know i should not lose my patience with him - but their is a level of absurdity that I cannot put up with.
Mozart in his dreamworld firmly believes that -
*   performance by players means nothing - only reputation should be the norm for selection of players;
*   that 90% of the requirements of a flyhalf is to kick balls - irrespective of how inadequate, aimless or inacurate the kicks are;
*   that overweight and slow loosies are the answer is that there only role is in the rare cases where they do get to breakdown points they do have to push opposing players off the balls - ball protection and recovery is not t all a requirement; and
*   you can play a Tight 4 combination (like with Matfield and Juandre Kruger) and then play a non-functioning loosie like Alberts to off-set the Tight 5 deficiency.
He is also a strong supporter of passing balls to forwards cutting out the backline totally - since the backline is only there for defense.   If any backline player misses a tackle he is doomed for life by Mozart - but that rule does not apply to his favourite players, they can miss tackle after tackle and excuse will be found to off-set that deficiency or he would hope that somebody does not raise the issue on site. 
A guy with such a weird idea about rugby is hardly to be found anywhere.     
 
   
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 May 2016, 10:28
#38
24 May 2016, 10:28#38

My team would be:


15. Willie 14. Combrink 13. Kriel 12. de Allende 11. Kolbe 10. Jantjies 9. Faf 1. Kitshoff 2. Bismark 3. Malherbe 4. Etzebeth 5. Lood 6. Kriel 7. Jacques du Plessis 8. Arno Botha


16. Marx 17. Nyakane 18. Marcel 19. PSDT 20. Kolisi 21. Hougaard 22. Lambie 23. Serfontein


My A side to play the England Saxons would be:


15. Gelant 14. Ulengo 13. Mapoe 12. Frans Venter 11. Sergeal Petersen 10. Goosen 9. Groom 1. Thomas du Toit 2. Strauss 3. Koch 4. Willemse 5. RG Snyman 6. Carr 7. Kirsten 8. du Preez


16. Akers 17. Kebble 18. Coenie 19. Jenkins 20. du Preez 21. v/Zyl 22. du Plessis 23. Esterhuizen

CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
24 May 2016, 10:39
#39
24 May 2016, 10:39#39
 I honestly thought that Mozart was goading you with this absurdity ... merely to pi$$ you off.
I thought I'd have a little fun in trading ideas with him. I actually looked forward to an interesting debate.  
Talk about a wake-up call.
Turns out he's been defending this absurdity all along ... because he believes it's the only way to go. All this nonsense is actually something he feels strongly about. 
How out of touch with reality can someone be?
Truly clueless.
Very disappointed.
I shan't bother with him any longer. 



 
CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
24 May 2016, 11:03
#40
24 May 2016, 11:03#40
 My match 23 against Ireland
1. Dylan Smith
2. Malcolm Marx
3. Julian Redelinghuys
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Pieter Steff Du Toit
6. Jaco Kriel (cpt)
7. Jannes Kirsten
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Faff De Klerk
10 Patrick Lambie
11. Ruan Combrink
12. Damien De Allende
13. Lionel Mapoe 
14. Sergal Petersen
15. Warrick Gelant
16. Akker vd Merwe
17. Thomas Du Toit
18. Lionel Koch
19. RG Snyman
20. Warren Whiteley 
21. Piet van Zyl
22. Francois Venter

23. Joe Pietersen






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