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FORUM / RUGBY /  Boks need their veterans back

Boks need their veterans back

Started by Mozart16 REPLIES450 VIEWS· 28 Jul 2015, 21:46
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Jul 2015, 21:46
#1
28 Jul 2015, 21:46#1

The return of several stalwarts will provide the Springboks with the balance and experience they've been lacking, writes JON CARDINELLI.

The Boks have thrilled and frustrated in equal measure over the past two weeks. They've produced some powerful showings at the scrums and breakdowns. The improved decision-making on the fly as well as an intent to run from deep has transformed them into an unpredictable and dangerous attacking side.

And yet, for all of that innovation and newfound sense of adventure, they've lost two from two in the Rugby Championship. Clearly there is something missing, both in terms of personnel and tactics.

While they remain the second-best side on the planet, they're some way off challenging the All Blacks for first place. The difference in conditioning between the Boks and the All Blacks was patent at Ellis Park. Over the past two weeks, the dearth of experience in some starting positions, and on the bench, has also cost the Boks dearly.

The Bok side that started against the All Blacks featured just eight first-choice players. Had the likes of Victor Matfield, Willem Alberts, Duane Vermeulen, Fourie du Preez, Jean de Villiers, Jaque Fourie and JP Pietersen all been available, the Boks would have played with more balance and composure.

Add a couple more seasoned players to the match-day 23, such as Frans Steyn and Morné Steyn, and you have an imposing lineup that can beat any side in the world.

To clarify, the Boks shouldn't discard every tactical ploy or selection that has been utilised in recent matches. They will certainly need a dash of youth and flair in their World Cup mixture.

The big question, of course, is how much. Given the magnitude of the global tournament, and the fact that northern hemisphere conditions are not as conducive to the helter-skelter playing style witnessed in Brisbane and Johannesburg recently, experience, defence, and strong tactical kicking should be priorities.

Steve Hansen made an interesting comment in the buildup to last week's match. The All Blacks coach marvelled at South Africa's 10-12-13 combination, as well as their fullback. But after praising Handré Pollard, Damian de Allende and Jesse Kriel, he qualified his statement by saying the trio represented the future of South African rugby, rather than their strongest combination at present.

While these players have brought a new attacking dimension to the Boks, they have, as a combination, proved susceptible on defence. Pollard, De Allende and Kriel may well represent the future, but it would be a gamble to play all three in a combination at the coming World Cup.

Heyneke Meyer is mindful of the formula that has worked at previous World Cups. Veterans can complement youngsters, and vice versa. Think about a 20-year-old Frans Steyn playing alongside the vastly experienced Butch James at the 2007 tournament, or a 23-year-old Sam Whitelock partnering the 36-year-old Brad Thorn in the second row in 2011. There are numerous other examples.

It seems likely that Meyer will back Pollard in that key position of No 10 at the World Cup, despite the 21-year-old's erratic goal- and tactical-kicking performances over the past few months. The feeling is that Pollard has come a long way over the past 14 months as the chief organiser of the Bok attack.

Don't be surprised if the Bok coach looks to offset Pollard's shortcomings by selecting two strong tacticians on either side of him. These players should have more experience as well as the ability to enhance the team's efficiency in areas such as tactical kicking and defence.

Indeed, the very presence of a Du Preez, a De Villiers, or a Frans Steyn may alleviate the pressure on Pollard, and may aid his improvement. The inclusion of veterans such as Fourie, Pietersen and Bryan Habana in a backline also gives the Boks a more solid look on defence.

On the flip side, players such as Pollard, Willie le Roux, and perhaps De Allende or Kriel from the bench will lend the Boks attacking impetus. The Boks need to go to the World Cup with a game plan that gives them options.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Jul 2015, 21:52
#2
28 Jul 2015, 21:52#2
No need to play the youngsters from the bench as Cardinelli suggests. A backline can be shaped that incorporates their offensive firepower.
Willie
Allende
Kriel
De Villiers
Habana

Pollard

F du Preez

That improves defence and attack. I'm always amazed by fans ability to forget Willie. While Kriel ran a lovely line and timed his offload to Willie with delicacy....that line of Willie's was every bit as good. And le Roux does this kind of thing in virtually every game. 
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
28 Jul 2015, 22:09
#3
28 Jul 2015, 22:09#3
 Not a bad backline Moz but one will really need to assess where De Villiers and Du Preez are. If they are playing well it is worth a shot.Some of this guys writing is complete hogwash. Cant be bothered to even respond.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Jul 2015, 22:34
#4
28 Jul 2015, 22:34#4
I agree Jean needs to prove his fitness....but Cardinelli's fundamental poin is right. We need experienced leaders....it was something Jake always emphasized, and is observable in all RWC winners for the last 20 years. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Jul 2015, 02:31
#5
29 Jul 2015, 02:31#5
 Mozart
The emphasis on experienced veterans is why no team ever in the past nearly 30 years won the WC twice in succession.  Experience without performance made sure of that one.
This is where the real balls-up happens time and time again.  It is not conceivable to fall back on players who participated in previous WC's - rather for squad development centered on the years between World Cups.   That is when the experience is to be developed.
It is silly to say that a player like Matfield should automatically be included in the squad because he was in the team that previously won the WC or was in a squad that have played in WC's before.   Winning teams included some members from previous losing WC's squads - the emphasis is on experience coupled to performance. 
Meyer had three years to ensure that there is the development of a squad with adequate experience be developed.  The average number of tests played between WC's are circa 50 tests.  It is the coaches responsibility to ensure that those tests are used to maximum benefit insofar as development of experience is concerned.  This is where White used the opportunity to develop experienced players and Meyer fell flat on his face.
The idea to constantly run back to 2007 players to play is ridiculous.  The coach should rather concentrate on what is to be done insofar as squad development is concerned.   Meyer's sole interest was not squad development - but squad retardation.   By pleading with players like Matfield, Du Preez, Bakkies Botha, Gurthro  Steenkamp, Juan Smith, Jacque Fourie, etc  to return to play for the Springboks and by disregarding the implications of advancing age of players with regard to performance - Meyer self-destructed and is now at this late stage forced to experiment with players.
Hansen never ran back to previous WC winning players who already retired from test rugby - he used the core - but ensure that they still performed well enough to remain in the team.  His emphasis was on performance and he never broke the link between experience and performance like Meyer did.  He ran back to the geriatrics rather than allowed for players to gain experience in the years from 2012 to date.  Some players played in one or two tests and was then left out of the team - no new players could really settled into positions in teams that way.
This constant running back to players well over 30 years of age is silly and the result of most of them was failure - unfortunately realized by Meyer never or far too late.  It should never have happened in the first place.   The only reasonably successful returnee was Schalk Burger who would not have been out of the team was it not his two years injury lay-off.   Habana and Jean de Villiers  were not in the relevant category of returnees - they were never out of the squad.  The rest of the geriatrics were selected by Meyer only on reputation with total disregard to performance and ultimately all of them - inclusive of Matfield - failed badly or realizing they were not competitive anymore retired voluntarily.  If they did not retire voluntarily Meyer would still have the failures in the squad.  
Failure to build up an experienced squad over the past three years was Meyer's fault nobody else's.  The real silliness of some members of this site in supporting that failed approach by Me yer was ridiculous as well.        
               


MO
MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
29 Jul 2015, 04:25
#6
29 Jul 2015, 04:25#6
I would'nt mind seeing that backline take the field, but agree with Bright Beeno on Fourie and Jean. Only having them on the field of play will tell us. I also agree with Mike and dont think to much of this CARDINELLI ASS!
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
29 Jul 2015, 05:32
#7
29 Jul 2015, 05:32#7
Yep, that's me preferred backline as well .

 Heard this morning, back in January Heyneke set 49 players fitness goals . Six months later, only 8 of the 49 have achieved the desired fitness level  .  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
29 Jul 2015, 06:05
#8
29 Jul 2015, 06:05#8
Wrong Tokkie...no team under 27 in average age has won the RWC. The last ABs were over 28. The fact that no team has repeated because  of age  is nonsense, because the teams that beat them were no younger. See how incredibly thick your logic is?  
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
29 Jul 2015, 06:37
#9
29 Jul 2015, 06:37#9
 At this time I'd rather play jean@14. 
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
29 Jul 2015, 08:18
#10
29 Jul 2015, 08:18#10
 The abs didnt win the last RWC they burgaled it.matfiled has to go. I would prefer, any of jaque du Plessis, Elstadt and Rhodes be fore Alberts whose work rate is pathetic. Maybe this rest will rejuvenate him.Jean at 14 is a possibilty. Jean is always faster than he looks.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Jul 2015, 08:22
#11
29 Jul 2015, 08:22#11
 Mozart
I have never referred to the age story - bar with regard to the so-called geriatrics.   That has nothing to do with the whole argument - what  is  is that players are retained in WC winning teams way beyond their sell-by date based on reputation without any regard to performance. 
In any case - you claim that the average age of winning teams was 27 years of age - sure it was, but what was the average age of the Aussie team in 1995, the Springboks in 1999, the Aussies in 2003, the English in 2007 and the Springboks in 2011.   It was not anywhere near to 27 years of age average.
The way Meyer was carrying on what would have been the average age of the team by the time 2015 came along - and that was evident also from teams you supported on this site.  It would have been 30 years of age.   If you follow what I really said is that experience should be built up during the period between WC's.  There will inevitably be players from previous WC's in any squad - but they would be from the lower-aged squad members - not the upper-aged group of players in the squad.
There could even be players from the 2007 WC team in the squad if they were below the age on 23 at the time of that WC.   There are in fact players from 2007 that could in theory be in the 2015 squad,   However, two of them - still under 30 years of age at this stage of their careers (Francois Steyn and JP Pietersen) are so poor in performance that their inclusion in the 2015 WC squad would be a scandal.
The only potential inclusion from the 2007 squad would be the following:-
*   Jean de Villiers  - highly questionable as a result of injury*   Bryan Habana  -  very questionable in last two tests*   Fourie du Preez -  highly questionable as a result of injury and performance *   Bismarck du Plessis - still strong performer*   Schalk Burger - still strong performer.
The others from 2007 are all seriously-deficient passengers whose performance are nowhere in evidence - younger players consistently out-perform them when given a chance.  
Of the above 5 the first 3 are indeed questionable - very questionable at that.  Habana produced near to nothing in the recent tests and neither you or I know what De Villiers and Du Preez would be capable of producing at present.  If their performance record in 2014 tests is borne in mind - their selection would be highly questionable.
However, what you completely missed out on was the argument about building up experience in the years between world cups.   That is the essential part of any WC winning side - that is why the average age of winning teams is 27 years.  Meyer buggered up badly by not doing so - and since he inherited players from the De Villiers era - where team renewal was a  dirty word because the team was run by a group of senior players - he was in a mess already.
His normal technique was only to bring in new players when the older players were injured - Le Roux and Etzebeth are typical examples of the earlier replacements of Meyer,  In a small minority of cases he replaced players whose performances  or players became so abysmal, he had no choice - eg Morne and Fransie.  Of the players over the last two weeks we would not have seen De Jager, De Allende and Kriel in the team if the older players were not injured.   That type of team renewal does not mean team building - it means emergency temporary replacements and most of the players who in fact was selected in between 2012 to 2015 suffered the same fate - used temporarily and discarded by Meyer.   That remains the main problem from the Meyer era - that is why weeks before the WC we still do not have a settled squad for the WC.           
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
29 Jul 2015, 08:32
#12
29 Jul 2015, 08:32#12
 Mike there can be no doubt Meyer has wasted a lot of time and not built that effectively. However with all our play ers due back he needs to do all all a big favour and pick a great squad. Be bold Meyer and only pick on merit. 
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
29 Jul 2015, 09:18
#13
29 Jul 2015, 09:18#13
There's a lot to be said for someone like Frans Steyn at 12 in wet conditions, which is likely to be a factor at the World Cup.

Willie is a critical part of the team. He may be erratic at times and do stupid things, but his absence will significantly blunt our attack. The call for Lambie at 15 at his expense from some sources is ridiculous.

Agree with the two Fouries (Jaque and Du Preez) having a lot to prove before they can be seriously considered. A fit and able Du Preez would be fantastic, but is he still fit and able? I don't think that Jaque has anything more to offer the Boks - his voluntary retirement from test rugby (before being begged to return) should tell you that he doesn't either.
3K
3ku1Pro2,580 posts
29 Jul 2015, 09:41
#14
29 Jul 2015, 09:41#14
 You guys need M Steyn back at Ten asap
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Jul 2015, 09:49
#15
29 Jul 2015, 09:49#15
 Luke
Sure - but we are not AB supporters who would want him back!!!!
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
29 Jul 2015, 10:04
#16
29 Jul 2015, 10:04#16
I think they should play Matfield in the backs (how about 12?)
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
29 Jul 2015, 10:23
#17
29 Jul 2015, 10:23#17
 Bring back Morne ! Bring back Matfield ! Mash em up and bring back Victor Mornefield von Matsteyne !
— END OF THREAD —

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