RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
26 May 2015, 12:45#2
I agree that the Chiefs and the Lions play attractive attacking rugby but I question whether the Chiefs can be described as a team with few stars.
In Brodie Retallick they have the World Player of the Year and in Sonny Bill Williams they have the World's most talked about player. I know Sam Cane is spoken about in hushed tones in New Zealand as the next Richie McCaw; Aaron Cruden has a claim to being the world's most overrated player while Liam Messam and Tim Nanai-Williams would be stars in pretty much any team in the world.
26 May 2015, 15:14#5
Moz, in 2013 the Boks had no choice but to play 100% attacking rugby, they had to get the bonus point victory in order to win the tournament. Caution to the wind and all! So that game is to be viewed in context.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 May 2015, 15:24#7
Sure Bloo but how did it work out for us....JJ lost the ball at the half and then got run over by wee Barrett. We can't stay with NZ playing this type of game....it's in their rugby DNA.
26 May 2015, 15:44#10
I take your point Moz, but you can't indoctrinate a team to play a certain style of rugby for 20+ years, and then change the entire philosophy of play for one game. They did well under the circrumstances, but to suddenly adopt a new style of attacking rugby, and expect positive results against the best team in the world was always a bit of a pipe dream!
Given time I am sure the Boks could be a top attacking team. Better than the All Blacks? Not so sure!
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
26 May 2015, 15:47#11
Blue that will never happen with Meyer as their coach - impossible
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 May 2015, 16:09#12
If we have the capacity to take on the ABs in wide open rugby, it will show up at S15 level first. With any SA team that takes on the top NZ team being creamed in open games....only a foolish Bok coach would take on Dave's fantasy.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 May 2015, 16:21#13
Mozart conveniently forgot about the real issue iro the second try scored by Messam in the 2013 test. Seconds before halftime the witless Morne Steyn 15 meters inside the Bok 22 passed the ball instead of making a relieving kick. The ball went to JJ and he tried to run out of trouble - which was virtually impossible. This was another example of impaired decisionmaking by the poorest flyhalf we had in 20 years in this country.
When Morne made foul ups Mozart blames everybody else for what happened. The list is virtually endless - a further example being the failure to find touch with a penalty kick - something Mozart never mentioned in what he wrote about the game. Initially Morne's performance in that game was praised by Mozart - and when it was pointed out to him what happened the deceit and lies took over.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 May 2015, 17:14#16
We beat the ABs in 2014 using my tactics and lost in 2013 using your tactics....learn from history.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 May 2015, 18:20#17
Mozart
JUst a second here. The tries scored in 2014 was a long-distance one started in the AB's 22 and two cases of Pollard attacking the gain line and scoring twice. That never happened before - since your super-hero Morne never attacked the gain line - so how come that was playing your style of rugby?
Then your forgot to add that the game was nearly lost because of a ridiculously poor line out play late in the match by Matfield - he is another hero of yours - thzt was a huge negative.
Then Lambie kicked a brilliant penalty from 55 meters out. Another player constantly maligned by you and not using "your tactics" at all.
Matter of fact the whole game in 2014 was played contra to your tactics and your claim in that regard is ridiculous.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
26 May 2015, 18:27#18
Bullshit we never played open attacking rugby in 2013
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 May 2015, 18:37#19
Wish I can get the full video on the 2013 All Black test against the Springboks in 2013 - I want to check that claim of Mozart about the line out story - since I smell a rat. I got the highlight package only and Messams attack - after Engelbrecht carried the ball for about 30 meters - started halfway between the Springbok 22 and half line.
There are two other issues - Morne got the ball inside the 22 near the goal posts - that would have been a weird position taken up by him after a line - out - and passed it to his right to De Villiers and hence to JJ who received the ball about 15 meters from the touchline and started his run.
The other issue here is that Naas Botha nearly had a fit about it - during halftime he spoke about five minutes non-stop about Morne's failure to kick for touch and that would not have happened if the ball was passed back into the 22 and Morne could not kick for touch.
I have a different recollection of the incident. As far as I can remember the AB's were attacking and carried the ball into the Springboks 22 - where I think it was Bismarck - caused a possession turnover and from that maul the ball went out to Morne - the latter being all within the Springboks 25.
I may be wrong - hence my request for help in finding the full match video to check it out.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
26 May 2015, 19:34#20
If sides like the Lions and Cheetahs can play attacking rugby with their limited resources why cant the Bulls, Stormers and Sharks. Even more so why cant the Boks!!!!
The Lions have shown what a side decently coached can achieve. Its the mindset and poor coaching that is the problem.
Forward dominance plus decent attacking skills has been the Boks traditional trade mark. The 3 major Super 15 franchises need decent coaches and a change to start using skills and being creative. This is hardly rocket science after all. You dont even have to invent anything!!!!
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 May 2015, 20:31#21
Not bull in 2013 we played open attacking rugby at Elllis Park and lost. This was NZ rugby, trying to attack from deep, eschewing the boot. In 2014 we played a more traditional Bok game, relying on turnovers and good field position. When the opportunities came Pollard took them. Nothing was forced. Thats how we have to play it.Try to play like Chiefs and we will be slaughtered by NZ and Oz who have better outside backs.
Try to use your noggin Sapp.
JWJust_win
Captain18,570 posts
JWJust_winCaptain18,570 posts
26 May 2015, 22:26#22
Yes Beeno, follow the Kiwi example & all will be well
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
27 May 2015, 12:05#24
We were the worst side on the day. We turned the game into a series of 1v1 situations completely giving up any line integrity whatsoever and made no attempt to win the territorial battle. It was a reckless and naive gameplan.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 May 2015, 12:44#25
The real farce that day was Morne Steyn. He cost us the Ellis Park game in 2013. He was directly involved in missing two tackles during attacks by the AB's leading to two tries.
The non-thinking abortion he made seconds before halftime cast us dearly and was the reason for scoring of the third AQB try. Don't believe what I say on the latter incident - rather believe Naas Botha, who was outraged and minced no words on the issue during halftime of that match.
That stupidity by Morne matched the farce he made of a penalty line kick in the Perth test last year. In the first case - Engelbrecht got the blame for the original foul up by Morne in the case of the Ellis Park test - in the case of the Perth test Lambie was blamed. Can we ever believe anything Mozart and Letsal write?????
Morne Steyn was the worst flop we had during the past two decades - and that is a fact.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
27 May 2015, 12:54#27
Actually, I did that last year after b oth Argentina tests. I ranked every 13 played under Meyer for tackle success and JJ was last. You called me a liar for saying he got bounced and I produced several videos. You need to keep up ol boy!
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 May 2015, 17:18#30
There were two issues here. Just after the injury of Alberts - there was a five meter scrum - and Morne kicked for touch and found touch on the 22. The AB's threw in the ball and the Springboks won the ball in the line-out. By then the play was in the Springboks 22 and a kick out of touch would have been enough to stop play for halftime. Naas was 100% correct and what he said about the issue.
Both Mozart and I was incorrect as to what happened - Mozart said the lineout was "a few meters" outside the 22 - while I said the turnover came from a maul within the 22. Sorry I was wrong. However, there was indeed a turnover because the AB hooker made a mess of the throw-in.
Now for the standard Mozart excuse to cover the balls-up by Morne:-
"Was Morne's decision justified? Well the Boks had just scored two long range tries from just outside their 22. In one case Louw made the perfect offload, in the other case Vermeulen. Chasing the championship Jean obviously felt it was worth taking the chance. But JJ running away from his support, instead of linking like Louw and Vermeulen, turned the move into a catastrophe."
Lets look at the following and see how true it is:-
"Well the Boks had just scored two long range tries from just outside their 22".
Neither of the attacks started "just outside their 22". One of the attacks started halfway between the Boks halfway and 22 - the other less than 10 meters inside the Springbok half.
"Chasing the championship Jean obviously felt it was worth taking the chance". This is ridiculous - it was not Jean's decision - it was Morne's and he took it knowing the end of the first half was imminent. Lets face facts - the robotic Morne never took the decision. He was told before the game to limit kicking and keep the ball in hand and the robot actually did just that.
I have never read such garbage about justification in my life and that from a person who claims he knows something about rugby. Lets face facts - Naas was correct in this case that it was a balls-up by Morne - and to blame JJ for that balls-up is ridiculous.