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FORUM / RUGBY /  CJ. Stampkar's amazing stat

CJ. Stampkar's amazing stat

Started by Mozart115 REPLIES2,536 VIEWS· 18 Mar 2018, 06:34
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MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Mar 2018, 06:34
#1
18 Mar 2018, 06:34#1
After Stampie dotted down against the English post the Irish press is positively gloating about the Bok failure to cap this chappie. Credit to Stamp, he was in position to take the pass and caught from behind, did well to drag the tackler the few extra metres. But it was nothing a Kolisi couldn't have done with ease. So what about Stamp the 'monumental' ball carrier. He carried the ball 96 times throughout the Six Nations and beat exactly one tackle...against Italy. In his last 59 runs he never beat a single tackle. That has to be a candidate for the Guinness Book of Records......and they shouldn't be hard to find in Ireland. Why the Irish Press think the number of carries is a useful stat to measure flanker performance remains a mystery.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Mar 2018, 07:07
#2
18 Mar 2018, 07:07#2

Mozart

There is one thing a person can say about you - once you have taken a dislike to a player there is nothing such a player can do to remove that pet hate.   Your prejudice will always predominate,

Looking at performance yesterday it is clear that Stander did very well yesterday - whether you like it or not.    Before he first played for Ireland Stander was in competition with Alberts for selection,   He is at least  loosie - something one cannot say of Alberts,

As to your reference to Kolisi - he is a quota player who would never get selection in any top rugby team,         

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Mar 2018, 16:03
#3
18 Mar 2018, 16:03#3
Unlike you Tokkie I don't rely on hype, I stick with the facts. Stampkar has beaten one tackle in 96 runs. That is a remarkable fact.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Mar 2018, 16:12
#4
18 Mar 2018, 16:12#4

Mozart

Unlike you I look at all the stats - not only selected ones that could perhaps be used to support your statement.   It is not only ball carries that determine the usefulness of a loosie, what about -

*  breakdown ball protection and recovery; and

*  tackles/defense

It also include usefulness in line-outs - althoughthat is definitely not the strong suit of many of th loosies and also not that on Stander.   Fact is I would have liked Stabder to play at 8 for the Springboks or even at 7 - but that is not to be.  

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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Mar 2018, 16:12
#5
18 Mar 2018, 16:12#5

Mozart

Unlike you I look at all the stats - not only selected ones that could perhaps be used to support your statement.   It is not only ball carries that determine the usefulness of a loosie, what about -

*  breakdown ball protection and recovery; and

*  tackles/defense

It also include usefulness in line-outs - althoughthat is definitely not the strong suit of many of th loosies and also not that on Stander.   Fact is I would have liked Stabder to play at 8 for the Springboks or even at 7 - but that is not to be.  

MO
Mozart
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Mar 2018, 16:51
#6
18 Mar 2018, 16:51#6
Stamp's long suit is as a ball runner. I'm simply saying a ball runner who beats 1 tackler in 96 carries has to be the least penetrative example one can find. Stamp is okay at the other stuff, not exceptional. He is way less of a number 8 than Vermeulen.
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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Mar 2018, 17:36
#7
18 Mar 2018, 17:36#7

Than Vermeulen was before 2015 you mean - his all too frequent injuries have taken their toll/  

BR
Brycy
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BrycyPro4,671 posts
18 Mar 2018, 22:32
#8
18 Mar 2018, 22:32#8

....96 carries averaging 3.7 metres a carry is not too shabby when you consider he was also at the heart of a huge defensive effort not to mention his try scoring heroics and overall consistency..

Stander gets the last laugh though playing for a team ranked second in the world and challenging for #1 next year...whereas all the haters and naysayers that would'nt evenwant him in their team , they're ranked nowhere worth mentioning...

CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Mar 2018, 02:30
#9
19 Mar 2018, 02:30#9

Brycy

You should know Mozart by now - once he dislikes a player the hatred is for keep s  

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2018, 03:15
#10
19 Mar 2018, 03:15#10
It would help if you got your facts right. The only time Stampkar got more than 3 metres a carry was against Italy. In the whole 6N he totalled 188 metres in 96 carries for 1.96 a carry.....and one defender beaten. Is that still...er...'not too shabby'. Best you leave the numbers alone Sheep Shearer....LMAOFY!
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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Mar 2018, 03:41
#11
19 Mar 2018, 03:41#11

Mozart

Lets go back in history a bit and compared the facts about a player you supported all out (Alberts)  who had an average 4 carries per game in tests and in five tests would have had 20 carries with an average meter gain of 1,80 meters per carry.

Compared to Alberts who scores zero for ball protection and recovery Stander is a shining light in that facet of play,  

Brycy is right about the try-scoring issue as well.   In 43 tests Alberts scored  7 tries - ie 1 try on average per every 6 tests.   Stander in 23 tests for Ireland scored 8 tries for an average of just under  I try in every 3 tests played.   

Mozart it is clear that prejudice got the better of you once again.      LMAO     

BR
Brycy
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BrycyPro4,671 posts
19 Mar 2018, 04:17
#12
19 Mar 2018, 04:17#12

....yea talk about putting the anal in analysis...whether he took two extra steps more or less does'nt detract from the fact Stander was the standout No8 of the tournament and instrumental in the Irish success...

MO
Mozart
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2018, 04:19
#13
19 Mar 2018, 04:19#13
Well let's see Alberts scored a try every 6 games......Richie McCaw scored a try every. 5.5 tests.....Juan Smith scored a try every 5.8 tests. Michael Hooper scored every 5.3 tests. Is Stampkar better than McCaw? Of course not, he is the guy the Irish often use as the ball carrier in rolling mauls....so he has a higher scoring percentage given that's an often used Irish tactic. Alberts was the power in the maul, never the carrier. See it's all so simple if you understand the game.
MO
Mozart
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2018, 04:22
#14
19 Mar 2018, 04:22#14
So Shearer you are saying 3.7 metres per carry is the same as 1.9 metres, and beating defenders is not important......funny stuff.
BR
Brycy
Pro4,671 posts
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BrycyPro4,671 posts
19 Mar 2018, 04:30
#16
19 Mar 2018, 04:30#16
So different sites are giving contrasting stats - it would'nt be the first time ..that does'nt necssarily mean yours that you have'nt even referenced btw are any more accurate than mine...
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2018, 04:39
#17
19 Mar 2018, 04:39#17
Well given the author of the article got his numbers wrong....it's a fair bet his pick was wrong as well. All these articles raving about his unstoppable running when he actually averaged 1.9 metres a carry and beat one defender in 96 carries only proves rugby writers are lazy and totally incapable of independent thought.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2018, 04:42
#18
19 Mar 2018, 04:42#18
Show me your source Shearer....mine is ESPN Rugby Stats Guru, the recognized source.
BR
Brycy
Pro4,671 posts
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
19 Mar 2018, 04:53
#19
19 Mar 2018, 04:53#19

...why would a Welsh journalist fabricate numbers to make the Irish look any better than they already are...the answer is they wouldn't...in the meantime i will look for a fk to give... but if Stander was'nt the standout No 8 of the tournament then who was pray tell us as we all need a good laugh..

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2018, 04:56
#20
19 Mar 2018, 04:56#20
Here you go another source....RTE news. 'Stander’s ballast is never in doubt and not surprisingly he carried more than any other Irish player (95) in the tournament, making a total of 194 metres. Offers go-forward no matter the opposition and his brute strength was fully evident as he muscled his way to the post for the second try at Twickenham. Has added more subtlety in his passing and footwork and is one of the first names on Schmidt’s team sheet.' Hahaha, stay down....moron.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2018, 05:00
#21
19 Mar 2018, 05:00#21
By the way on the subtle passing point....this guy got the ball 119 times.....and it died with him 96 times....he passed 21 times and offloaded twice. An old style SouthAfrican loosie he looks for contact. Apparently this is a novelty in Europe.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2018, 05:03
#22
19 Mar 2018, 05:03#22
The best number 8 in Europe by a mile is Taulupe Faletau, demonstrated by the fact that he was first choice for the Lions throughout the AB series. Against France for example12 passes, 1 offload, 7 runs, 36 metres, 1 clean break, 1 defender beaten.......those are the stats of a modern eighthman.
BR
Brycy
Pro4,671 posts
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BrycyPro4,671 posts
19 Mar 2018, 05:13
#23
19 Mar 2018, 05:13#23

...and the No8 of the 2018 6 Nations was...exactly - CJ Stander.. .i rest my case yr honor

MO
Mozart
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2018, 05:16
#24
19 Mar 2018, 05:16#24
Your case needs resting.
PE
poi-e
Pro1,044 posts
PE
poi-ePro1,044 posts
19 Mar 2018, 05:26
#25
19 Mar 2018, 05:26#25

First time I've seen someone reference an article praising a player as evidence that he's actually p00

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2018, 05:29
#26
19 Mar 2018, 05:29#26
Simply verifying my stats are accurate...the opinions in the article are the well known hype surrounding this player, which the numbers call into question.
BR
Brycy
Pro4,671 posts
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BrycyPro4,671 posts
19 Mar 2018, 05:49
#27
19 Mar 2018, 05:49#27

...poi'e ..thats what you call disman tling yr own argument

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2018, 05:54
#28
19 Mar 2018, 05:54#28
But only after dismantling your's.
BR
Brycy
Pro4,671 posts
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
19 Mar 2018, 06:12
#29
19 Mar 2018, 06:12#29
...not until you've provided an alternative to Stander as the No 8 of the tournament you have'nt done shit..
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2018, 06:33
#30
19 Mar 2018, 06:33#30
Faletau....look above, read, try to comprehend. And ask yourself why you are punting a player, Stampkar, who running 100 times is put away by the first tackler 99 times of those times.
BR
Brycy
Pro4,671 posts
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
19 Mar 2018, 07:01
#31
19 Mar 2018, 07:01#31
....Faletau is all class but was injured for most of the tournament...what yr saying is even an absent / injured Faletau wa s better than a fully fit and conquering Stander i'm guessing....?
PE
poi-e
Pro1,044 posts
PE
poi-ePro1,044 posts
19 Mar 2018, 07:14
#32
19 Mar 2018, 07:14#32

Not necessarily, you put a lot of weight on defenders beaten whereas I want my ball carriers showing gain line dominance, I don't care how many defenders he beats as long as he's making meters over the gain line.  He might not be as productive per carry as another no8, but he can carry more often and still be productive.

I'm not the biggest Stander fan, not for any other reason than I didn't like Saffex ramming him down our throat as the second coming.  But IMHO there is no denying he was the form no8 of the tournament.   You might prefer Faletau as a player, but he only played 2 games this campaign, Italy and France, to name him the tournament No.8 would be a bit of a stretch I would think

BL
bluebok
Pro3,977 posts
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bluebokPro3,977 posts
19 Mar 2018, 08:39
#33
19 Mar 2018, 08:39#33

Moz If Stander is as useless as you seem to think he is, then the remaining 14 Irish players must be uber fantastic to carry the weight of the "slacker". Seeing as they managed to dispatch teams like England and Wales with relative ease!  


What you are purposefully overlooking with your stats is that  even 1 meter gained in heavy traffic that places your team on the front foot is very valuable. Just as not being turned over when in such a situation is very valuable. You seem to be basing your argument on him being a Pierre Spies type running no.8. Within the current Irish game plan, that is not his function. His function now is similar to that of Alberts back when he was in form for the Boks. Get over the advantage line, protect the ball, make your tackles, link with the back line. He is doing all of those things well, just as Alberts did way back when.   

CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Mar 2018, 09:59
#34
19 Mar 2018, 09:59#34

Mozart

You are on the losing end here and you should know why.   You actually are seriously prejudiced.

So why did I refer to Alberts - the worst loosie the Springboks had over the  past decade with a minimal work rate in games.   The reason is obvious - Stander was in competition with him for a  while for Springbok selection and Meyer was stupid enough (his normal state of mind) to pick a slow and clumsy spare prop as a loosie, a move you  supported all out.   

It is no use to try and side-track the issue as raised by me by referring to other top class loosies you used with one reference only.   Better admit you were wrong in this case and your attack on Stander is unjustified and the result of prejudice.  


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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Mar 2018, 09:59
#35
19 Mar 2018, 09:59#35

Mozart

You are on the losing end here and you should know why.   You actually are seriously prejudiced.

So why did I refer to Alberts - the worst loosie the Springboks had over the  past decade with a minimal work rate in games.   The reason is obvious - Stander was in competition with him for a  while for Springbok selection and Meyer was stupid enough (his normal state of mind) to pick a slow and clumsy spare prop as a loosie, a move you  supported all out.   

It is no use to try and side-track the issue as raised by me by referring to other top class loosies you used with one reference only.   Better admit you were wrong in this case and your attack on Stander is unjustified and the result of prejudice.  


MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2018, 14:50
#36
19 Mar 2018, 14:50#36
Okay so here are my rebuttals: 1 I know Faletau was injured for much of the tournament, but Wales finished second, in large part because of his excellent performance against France. If the Lions were chosen today he would still be the number 8 and Stampkar would still be competing for a bench spot. 2 Averaging less than 2 metres is more or less a given....with the benefit of an offside rule and momentum. The best you can say for Stampkar is he resets the ball and doesn't lose possession. 3 Alberts was a tackle breaker, he had strength unlike Stampkar. He never made big metres but genuinely got the team on the front foot. The data is no longer available for much of his career....but here is his last start against a top team, England; W AlbertsF 0 2 11 30 1 1 0 0 That would be typical Alberts effort at around 3 metres a carry. The excuses for Stampkar are amazing.....one tackle beaten in 96 carries, passing less than 20% of the time. Not only an iron age Bok loosie, exactly the kind of game pattern we supposedly are trying to reject......but an incredibly ineffective proponent of that style.
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
19 Mar 2018, 14:55
#37
19 Mar 2018, 14:55#37

Stander has turned into a right plodder. I wouldn't want him playing for the Mighty Stormers for sure. No loss to Bok rugby at all. Generally I regret our players going overseas but I don't think wee Stander is even Super rugby standard - if you know your rugby!


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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Mar 2018, 15:06
#38
19 Mar 2018, 15:06#38

Mozart

You mentioned one game where Alberts played in - it was the French test in 2012 I believe.   However, Alberts had an average  4 ball carries per match - with an average gain of 1,8 meters per carry - fact.   He was so slow and useless an excuse had to be developed for his poor ball carries and that is the myth that Alberts was a tackle breaker was raised by you - he was not a tackle breaker at all since he was clumsy.   He rarely if ever  got the Boks on the front foot - another of your myths.  

There i s no evidence that Albert have the abilities you credit him with - but there is ample statistical evidence that he was a low work rate player and a liability on defense.   He also was totally useless when it came to ball protection and recovery.

A huge mistake by you for not recognize uselessness when it hit you in the face.

     

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2018, 15:08
#39
19 Mar 2018, 15:08#39
Wrong that was the English test in 2014....the last start I can find data for.....let me spell it out for you.... E N G L A ND....there.
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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Mar 2018, 15:33
#40
19 Mar 2018, 15:33#40

Mozart

I am afraid Alberts did not play in the only test the Springboks played against England in 2014 on 15 November 2014.   

In future you may find the following website usable as to stats on test matches:-

http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/team/match_results_year.html?id=1;type=class

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