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FORUM / RUGBY /  Controversial red card overshadows Waratahs win; NZ Herald

Controversial red card overshadows Waratahs win; NZ Herald

Started by Just_win60 REPLIES848 VIEWS· 01 May 2016, 07:56
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
02 May 2016, 12:11
#41
02 May 2016, 12:11#41
 "So how seriously are we to take Basque"?The obvious question.  To be fair on the kbbs is ab ASs a genuine kiwi  - I think he may just support the wee abs.The answer is obvious - he cant be taken seriously! Bwahahahhahahahahahaha
A word of thanks to Dr Moz for attempting to educate poor ab ASS - a thankless task of course.The rules of rugby, greatly influenced by the ballet loving kiwis, need to be rethought and clarified.all down under refs to be  banned for a year to help them refocus their bent "minds"Some will be surprised to then see that they do know the rules.

My good friend Ou JW clucks away and as per usual gets it wrong. I have been spending so much time on politics that ou JW is running amok!





CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 May 2016, 12:14
#42
02 May 2016, 12:14#42
 Zas effectively got a two week ban and the Stormers not -playing this coming weekend means that he will only have a one week ban.   In view of the evidence provided it was clear that the aggravating circumstances in the case of emery was absent in thisc ase hence the shorter ban.  
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
02 May 2016, 13:03
#43
02 May 2016, 13:03#43
 @plum,

your post is the total delirium,....... adjust the argumentation (Emery's and Zas' chasing) to its own terms, without introducing the saffa-kiwi question....... lately you are always bringing the argumentation through the same path,...... I'm not a kiwi and I don't give a f*cking sh¡t about it,........ keep your xenophobic comments for yourself

"Had the Stormers incident been the same as the Willie incident every last Saffa on here would admit it firstly and condemn it secondly"

yeah, sure,....... the saffas are all so good, so damn good, so unbiased, so balanced while the kiwis are always looking for the result, "they jump on that bandwagon like [removed]'s on cash in day"
as you perfectly pointed to, you are in Beeno's same boat,...... what else can be said?



"He considers the dropping of a shoulder that knocks a player out of the air to be the same thing as a guy loosing his footing when he tries to jump"

is not about what I consider or not,....... is about what the rugby laws consider,........is it so difficult to understand?
there's nothing about intention in the rugby laws,..... nothing,........ as the ref said to de Jongh is completely IRRELEVANT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Law 10.4 - Dangerous Play and Misconduct


(i) Tackling the jumper in the air.

A player must not tackle nor tap, push or pull the foot or feet of an opponent jumping for the ball in a lineout or in open play.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

can anybody read the word intention or anything similar? NO, there's nothing about it,...... Zas' chasing was a Dangerous play as specified in the laws hence the red card is right ly shown
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
02 May 2016, 13:10
#44
02 May 2016, 13:10#44
Sounds like a reasonable ruling on Zas, now will that stop the bleating on this site about how unfair life is? Of course it will because all SA posters are fair & reasonable people
Plum, if everyone agreed with each other on this site believe me it would be dead in a heartbeat. The discussion on this thread included the laws of rugby & the interpretation thereof. Not sure why you object to it? Anyway you can't please everyone.
Beeno, your presence on the rugby part of the site has been missed. The chemistry of personalities are all out of balance. We need a uncompromising one-eyed view & CleverMike & others cannot live up to the benchmark you established. 
JW complimentary as ever
Beeno in his hayday, a one-eyed quick-draw artist who doesn't let logic or accurate typing slow him down
I think he has stolen Naru-san's spiffy blue overalls
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
02 May 2016, 13:58
#45
02 May 2016, 13:58#45
 Hahahahahahahha - Sadly JW I have been neglecting my duties and now wild opinions lacking any merit proliferate like never before!!!The hapless ou ab ASS thinks Foley's bum charge on poor Zas (who clearly slipped) was not dangerous. Zas otherwise would have been up there competing directly for the ball and then who fault would it be? Zas may even have causgt the ball and Foley get carded.Never a red of course!!!
I think all sane people can agree it was a very harsh call and cost the Stormers the game. 22 Minutes at 14 men and lost by a couple of points. The comments of Fleck can be dismissed as no coach likes to open himself up to whingeing accusations.
Justin clearly called this on eincorrectly but is human. I only hope he is not on the slippery slide dowwards to join his country men and fellow travellors like ou ab ASS .
Beeno as always the voice of reason.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 May 2016, 13:59
#46
02 May 2016, 13:59#46
Well even the authorities make a distinction between the two cases....they give Zas the minimum they could give short of admitting the ref was wrong....which they do only if there is zero doubt.


Case closed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
02 May 2016, 14:00
#47
02 May 2016, 14:00#47
 JW ou maaaikie rugby acumen may be shaky but his politcal nous is very lacking. No wonder he was an anc supporter! One has to educate ou maaaikie on BOTH counts!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 May 2016, 14:10
#48
02 May 2016, 14:10#48
 Beeno
Please top your nonsense.  I said there was mitigating circumstances and that if he gets a ban it would be of short duration.   What was wrong with that?
As for politics I remain a realist and is not duped by a demagogue spouting ideas he has stolen from others and is very close to his democratic friends.   He will sell out the party in any way he could find possible.    
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
02 May 2016, 14:26
#49
02 May 2016, 14:26#49
  @mike,

"In view of the evidence provided it was clear that the aggravating cir[removed]stances in the case of emery was absent in thisc ase"

wrong, very wrong,....... there were NOT "aggravating cir[removed]stances in the case of emery",....... to the contrary, there were mitigating factors:

"The Committee took into account as mitigating factors the player's exemplary clean disciplinary record after seventy first class matches, his apology in person to Willie le Roux immediately after the match and on social media, his guilty plea and the fact that the tackle was rather reckless than deliberate.
The player was therefore given a two week discount...."
http://www.planetrugby.com/news/emery-banned-for-mid-air-le-roux-tackle/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@mozart,
"they give Zas the minimum they could give short of admitting the ref was wrong"

?????????????????????????????
WTF are you talking about? when the corresponding rugby board considers that a card is not correctly shown it's directly deleted (de-leted, cannot understand why they remove deleted) and no ban is applied

there are many examples of it,..... just one of them:
"The International Rugby Board has found fault with referee Romain Poite's decision to award the first of two yellow cards against South Africa's Bismarck du Plessis in the All Blacks test.

Rugby Championship organisers have deleted (de-leted) a subsequent red card from the Springbok hooker's career record.

(...) SANZAR said in a statement that Willis found Poite's decision ''was wrong,'' as the tackle on Carter ''was within the laws of the game''.

The other yellow card issued against du Plessis, for raising his elbow as he went into a tackle against an All Blacks backrower, remains on his record."


http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/9171135/Du-Plessis-first-yellow-card-was-incorrect-IRB

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



the difference btwin both sentences is that in the case of Emery the offense was considered mid range and in the case of Zas it was considered "a lower end offence on the basis that the video footage showed the player's right foot slipping"

the consideration of the range of the offenses is a completely arbitrary issue,..... is not ruled by the laws, there are no laws saying how to consider an offense,..... so it's a very refutable issue,........ and IMO the slipping of Zas should not have been considered since if Zas hadn't slipped the result would have been the same, a very dangerous fall of the jumper,...... probably less spectacular but also very dangerous,....... he was late, Zas had his timing wrong (as had it Emery) and was late to jump,........ he was lucky to slip and this to be considered


but the important issue here is to do whatever necessary to avoid the terrific and dangerous falls of the jumpers,....... both WLR and Foley could have ended up in a wheel chair for the rest of their lives or something even worse,........ and the message have been sent with both reds,....... the chasers have to control their speed and their timing when running for a kick and all the excuses brought (mainly the slipping) go in the other direction, try to diminish the gravety of the acts
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
02 May 2016, 14:35
#50
02 May 2016, 14:35#50
 @mozart,
"Case closed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I was wrong,....... you don't use a 10 years old boy's argumentation,......... it's  5 yo boy's

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 May 2016, 14:35
#51
02 May 2016, 14:35#51
 Thanks for proving my point sucker, to reverse the Poite decision they had to admit he was wrong. They would never have admitted the Zas case was wrong, because it was in the grey area and safety would be compromised by literally setting it aside. But by making the sentence as short as possible they are signaling that it was not a clear cut case....unlike Emery.

The two cases were obviously different and have been treated differently on review.
Now please stop making a fool of yourself, it's disturbing to witness this kind of implosion.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
02 May 2016, 14:50
#52
02 May 2016, 14:50#52
 Moz be reasonable now! How can ou ab ASS be otherwise. At least he tries!
Also things could have been worse, we could have had warped DUD ranting aways as well. These two in tandem are enough to convince one we are in a lunatic aslylum! Hahahahahahahahahaha JW is wearing a white gown but actually he is an inmate!
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
02 May 2016, 15:05
#53
02 May 2016, 15:05#53
 as I said, a 5 yo boy's argumentation,....... all that you said is absurd

nothing in your childish argumentation can refute the fact that "when the corresponding rugby board considers that a card is not correctly shown it's directly de-leted and no ban is applied" as I proved it,.......... they don't send signals or anything similar as you are trying to say,....... they directly de-lete the card,...... period

you can bring as many absurd arguments as you want, they won't change this fact


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 May 2016, 16:01
#54
02 May 2016, 16:01#54
Different sanctions prove different levels of culpability, totally refuting your flawed argument...suck on on that 5 year old argument.
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
08 May 2016, 01:47
#55
08 May 2016, 01:47#55
  Law discussion: Red air Wed, 04 May 2016 10:16
http://www.rugby365.com/laws-referees/law-discussions/72719-law-discussion-red-air

EXCLUSIVE: rugby365 law guru Paul Dobson ask if the red card at Newlands against Leolin Zas was fair


Jean-Luc du Plessis, the Stormers flyhalf, kicks high and his left wing, Leolin Zas, chases the high ball.

Bernard Foley of the Waratahs comes forward and leaps high to catch the ball. Zas has his left foot on the ground when his left shoulder and arm make contact with Foley at roughly waist level. Foley and Zas both fall to ground, Foley going down shoulder and head first.

The referee consults the touch judge and they watch the incident in slow motion and real time. The upshot is that the referee shows Zas a red card, which means that he is sent permanently from the field.

Later, after deductions, Zas was suspended for two weeks.


There were - as there usually are - cries that this was harsh, that Zas was slipping, that Zas did not intend to do what he did do, that it was an accident.


Law first.


Law 10.4 (i) Tackling the jumper in the air
A player must not tackle nor tap, push or pull the foot or feet of an opponent jumping for the ball in a line-out or in open play.
Sanction: Penalty kick


It does not help to make semantic distinctions from the letter of the law. The intention is clear - to make the player jumping for the ball safe.

Clearly in this case Foley is not safe.


Then instruction.

At a meeting in April 2015, the Laws Representation Group (LRG) of World Rugby (previously the International Rugby Board) considered the areas of the Game where, it had been agreed that Law amendments were not required but that current Law was to be enforced by match officials including:


Challenging players in the air - Law 10.4 (i)


The options given were:


Play on – Fair challenge with both players in a realistic position to catch the ball. Even if the player(s) land(s) dangerously, play on


Penalty only – Fair challenge with wrong timing - No pulling down


Yellow card – Not a fair challenge, there is no contest and the player is pulled down landing on his back or side


Red card – Not a fair challenge, there is no contest and the player lands on his head, neck or shoulder


Look at this action and it is clear that the fourth option (Red card) best describes what has happened.

Zas did not realistically contest for possession of the ball.
Foley lands on his shoulder and head.


It is not helpful to water down the law and its intention by finding excuses for the offending player. In these matters. As in high tackles and late tackles, it is best to concentrate on the fact of the matter.


In this case Foley is in the air. He can take no evasive action when he is in the air.

Foley was in the air before Zas arrived.

Zas is not in the air. He had no chance of catching the ball before Foley did.

Zas made contact and Foley fell heavily and dangerously.

Foley had nothing to do with Zas's 'slipping'. Foley's fall had everything to do with Zas's contact.

Those are the facts.


A referee does not make the laws. His job is to administer them, and player safety is of paramount importance in a game where serious injury is possible.

A player is not obliged by law to tackle. He is allowed to tackle - but it must be within the laws of the Game.

What the referee says to the player is an excellent, succinct summary.

The decision was fair.


By Paul Dobson
@rugby365com

AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
08 May 2016, 01:55
#56
08 May 2016, 01:55#56
 word for word what I was saying:

"There were - as there usually are - cries that this was harsh, that Zas was slipping, that Zas did not intend to do what he did do, that it was an accident.

It is not helpful to water down the law and its intention by finding excuses for the offending player. In these matters. As in high tackles and late tackles, it is best to concentrate on the fact of the matter.


In this case Foley is in the air. He can take no evasive action when he is in the air.

Foley was in the air before Zas arrived.

Zas is not in the air. He had no chance of catching the ball before Foley did.

Zas made contact and Foley fell heavily and dangerously."


dig it, mozart and the rest?


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
08 May 2016, 02:07
#57
08 May 2016, 02:07#57
Now if you are second in the air you have no chance of winning the ball? Which means the only allowable contests are those where players jump at the same time...meaning what? Within the same tenth of a second, the same hundredth of a second...
All nonsense. Zas ran up with the only intention of catching the ball. He was in position to leap and contest slipped and never got up, taking out Foley. Fair enough that he got red carded, the law needs to be tightened in favour of the player in the air. But let's not compare this to an incident where a player has three steps to pull out of a charge through a player in the air.

The authorities treated the culpability differently, enough said.
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
08 May 2016, 02:20
#58
08 May 2016, 02:20#58
 as usual,.......... with egg oozing all over his face has to say the last word
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
08 May 2016, 02:21
#59
08 May 2016, 02:21#59
 How so hast say? Bwahahaha!
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
08 May 2016, 02:25
#60
08 May 2016, 02:25#60
 really?

so childish,............. please, grow up
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
08 May 2016, 05:44
#61
08 May 2016, 05:44#61
 And he corrects his blunder.....
Popo the puppet can do anything
When somebody else pulls the string,  the string, the string, the string
Yes Popo the puppet can do anything 
When somebody else pulls the string



— END OF THREAD —

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