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FORUM / RUGBY /  Dane Gerber: SA Super XV Back-lines are useless

Dane Gerber: SA Super XV Back-lines are useless

Started by sharkbok38 REPLIES1,132 VIEWS· 09 Apr 2015, 18:41
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sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,285 posts
09 Apr 2015, 18:41
#1
09 Apr 2015, 18:41#1
Gerber frustrated watching SA teams2015-04-09 09:39POST A COMMENTSHARE THISDanie Gerber (Gallo Images)RELATED LINKS
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  • Cape Town - Former Springbok centre Danie Gerber says he is finding hard nowadays to watch the South 

    African teams in action in Super Rugby.

    Things are looking bleak for the SA teams

     in this year’s competition, with no local team looking like serious title contenders at present.

    If it weren’t for the requirement of each

     of the three conference leaders automatically occupying the top three berths on the 

    overall table, the best-placed SA franchise - 

    now the Bulls - would actually lie sixth.

    They instead unconvincingly command third, 

    with the high-flying Hurricanes and 

    Australian pace-setting Brumbies ahead 

    of them, but should really be behind all 

    of the Chiefs, Highlanders and Crusaders 

    as well.  

    The SA teams are struggling on attack, 

    which shows in the try-scoring statistics.

    To date, New Zealand teams have scored

     90 tries, Australian teams 70, and SA

    teams 65.

    Last season, Kiwi teams scored 223 tries, 

    Australian teams 216 and SA teams only 156.

    Gerber, who was renowned for his try-scoring ability, says it’s frustrating to watch SA teams in action.

    “Our rugby is messed up by an obsession

     to mostly attack with the forwards.

    Gerber told Netwerk24.

    Gerber, 56, played 24 Tests for the Springboks between 1980 and 1992, scoring 19 tries.

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,285 posts
09 Apr 2015, 18:45
#2
09 Apr 2015, 18:45#2
Without rolling mauls tries it would be less than 100 tries scored. Not sure why Gerber does not get involved as a specialist backline coach.
Last I heard he was selling hamburgers just outside the stadium to local passer Byers.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
09 Apr 2015, 18:53
#3
09 Apr 2015, 18:53#3
Some of us have pointing this out for some time now. It will take a while to change the SA rugby culture and value system. 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
09 Apr 2015, 19:21
#4
09 Apr 2015, 19:21#4
 SB. Danie did a stint at coaching and did very well. He was assistant coach at the Pumas some years ago. Problem is that he is very good but very outspoken. I don't think that he  would sit well with many of the unions. 
TBH, I was quite surprised that Henning Gericke did not twist Gert Smal's arm to try and get Dannie involved with the Stormers/WP but I also realise that getting him, Coetzee and Wakefield to work together might be a tall order. 
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
09 Apr 2015, 20:37
#5
09 Apr 2015, 20:37#5
 and a cow goes moo,


nobody watches saffa teams for their backs and thats a shame, cos theres plenty of talent to boot.

but 10 man rugby is a part of all saffa rugby teams DNA, and its going to take solid coaches plus proper investment at grassroots level to stop the brus from boring us.

sadly i cant see this happening in my lifetime, but it is only a matter of time before a kiwi coaches the Boks.
it wont stop the All Blacks from owning the Boks, but the improvements in the national team will be the most positive ever seen.

after the All Blacks win the RWC, SARU need to do the smart thing and make dave rennie and offer he cant refuse, he is the best coach out there at club level.
3 years in spXV and two titles, no matter how the  chiefs do this year, his title winning percentage wont fall below 50%.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Apr 2015, 21:11
#6
09 Apr 2015, 21:11#6
 I have said it all along.  The bugger-up in SA rugby started when the kick-and-chase game developed with Naas Botha in the pivot situation.  Whether one likes it or not - Naas Botha had an understanding of what he wanted to achieve and he was accurate.  He was succeeded by a string of flyhalfs who tried to emulate him, without the skill set to do so.
This idea about the kick and chase game also found its way to this forum.  Mozart recently wrote that 90% of the functions of a flyhalf entails kicking.   As long as we have that situation - and what Mozart wrote is a reflection of the thinking of some of our coaches - Meyer included.
The other thing that kills backline play is the constant crashballing and ball hogging of our 12's.   Gerber is right - it is a bore and to watch the games - it is becoming a real ordeal.    
MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
09 Apr 2015, 21:29
#7
09 Apr 2015, 21:29#7
A class act was Danie. SA haven't seen a centre since worth licking Danie's boots.  
TT
The_TruthClub Pro471 posts
09 Apr 2015, 21:48
#8
09 Apr 2015, 21:48#8
"I have said it all along.  The bugger-up in SA rugby started when the kick-and-chase game developed with Naas Botha in the pivot situation."

You know fcukall about rugby and that's a FACT!

Botha's kicks were not part of a "kick-and-chase game-plan", but they were tactical kicks based on decisions made, that related to the what was happening on the field at that specific moment... It was definitely not a pre-planned game-plan.

The Springboks scored some of the best back-line tries in their history with Botha at flyhalf.
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
09 Apr 2015, 21:52
#9
09 Apr 2015, 21:52#9
Sasuke and Danie Gerber have said it spot on...I feel the same....we lack nous in the backline and fear of experiment...oodles of talent that is stereotyped by conservative and gutless stance and inability to initiate and think in the attack by useless coaches who would rather play safe than venture.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Apr 2015, 21:57
#10
09 Apr 2015, 21:57#10
We have limited talent....that is the simple truth. A Brian O Driscoll, Habana...a Joost don't need coaching to be great.
We have a substantial talent deficiency in the backs...so all these cries for wide open rugby are going to end up as the Sharks did last weekend. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
10 Apr 2015, 00:02
#11
10 Apr 2015, 00:02#11
 Balls
The talent is limited because even if the players have the talent it is systematically coached out of them.   Fact is that they are not allowed to use their natural talents - since it does not tie in with the kicking and crashballing game that has for years been the alpha and omega of some of our coaches.   
Any player who has the ability to play "clever and skilful rugby is immediately regarded as unsuitable for local selection - with the result we end up with the unthinking "donkeys" with little ball skills being in our backlines and sadly also being taken as the norm by our coaches and even dim-witted components of our public.
We have the talent - but not the coaches who can bring out that talent to best advantage.   Our backline and attack coaches often enough know less about that component of our rugby than high school coaches knows.  How can a forward like Matfield be appointed as attack coach as was done by the Bulls three years ago?
The present situation is that players are selected because of their size in the mistaken believe that they are for that reason better defenders - even though often enough they are not.   There is no thought ever given to ball skills and thinking rugby.
If Mozart's idea is correct - how come SA produced some wonderful backline players in the past - why should that suddenly has got lost in the present era?   Why can we watch junior rugby - at school and university level and see how these youngsters have better ball handling skills and implementation than our senior players?
The answer lies in the fact that we have lost the ability to advance ball skills and usage through positive coaching and our top coaches would not be allowed to coach third team players of local clubs in New Zealand and Australia.                  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
10 Apr 2015, 01:51
#12
10 Apr 2015, 01:51#12

Here is the test....how many SA backs would make the NZ backline. Perhaps Pollard and if he continues to develop perhaps de Allende. I have read the claims about supposed talent so many times. Where are the centres, where are the wings? 

 

 

What we have always been able to do is put together an effective international backline, but spreading the talent over all these S15 teams makes for weak tea.

 

 

The deniers can deny until they are blue in the face....the truth is painfully obvious. Teams that source big, fast Pacific nation backs are at an advantage in the backs. We have no physical equivalent except for occasional exceptions like Gerber, Habana and Jean. Our advantage is in the tight forwards....hookers, locks and loosies.

 

 

Bok coaches instinctively understand this and craft their team to deal with that reality.


In the CC Kolbe was a super star. In the S15 he is pretty vulnerable....that puts things in perspective.

SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
10 Apr 2015, 06:11
#13
10 Apr 2015, 06:11#13
 Moz there's a 19 year old wing called Duhan van der Merwe who is built like George North at the Bulls. Don't think that I'm hyping him up, weight and height wise he's a big boy and he knows how to use it as seen when he humiliated an England U20 center by bumping him aside for a Jesse Kriel try. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
10 Apr 2015, 07:36
#14
10 Apr 2015, 07:36#14
 The dimwit are getting dimmer by the day.  How many of the so-called  big and fast Polynesian types are in the All Black team and how many of same in the five franchise teams?
Most of the backline players are not big - they are skilled to perfection by coaches.  The big players there are - like Julian Savea and Israel Folau - are not the fastest players around - fact is they are rather on the slow side.  However, there can be no doubt that they use their size and physical strength to top advantage - but their main advantage is that they are coached to perfection by the backline coaches of the NZ and Australian coaches.  They know what to expect from their teammates and the strategies used are comprehensive strategies - not the BS coached into our players by our coaches.
Mozart conveniently forgets about a player like Habana - who is a gifted individual not particularly big - but who is one of the best wings ever.   Habana retained his individuality and abilities despite years of absolute BS coaching by SA coaches.   It is a fact that if you want to see players (especially centers) being destroyed let them be contracted by the Bulls.  Their coaches would within record time destroyed the natural ability of the players instead of advancing it by decent coaching,  Take for example the case of a player like Sadie - he was good playing at center before he went to the Bulls and ended getting out of their contract and is as a result a much better center at present.
"The deniers can deny until they are blue in the face....the truth is painfully obvious. Teams that source big, fast Pacific nation backs are at an advantage in the backs. We have no physical equivalent except for occasional exceptions like Gerber, Habana and Jean. Our advantage is in the tight forwards....hookers, locks and loosies."

 

I quoted the above because it is totally unrealistic and totally false as well.  Gerber was not a a particularly big guy and  neither is Habana.   Danie Gerber was at his prime 1,85 meter tall weighing 88 kg - ie about the same size as the clueless De Jongh and smaller than Jordaan.  Habana is 1,80 meters and 94 kgs.    That on its own showed how false the dimwit's statements really are.  The real truth is that our coaches has no real ability to take backline players with potential and coach them to a higher level of competence.   They developed a game plan that destroyed the development of backline players on a totally flimsy basis.


Because this has been the case for years - at least during the past decade - there is no way that our backline players could ever develop their skills and a positive game plan could be developed:-


*   White was a coach with no insight into backline play.  He had to get Eddie Jones to deal with the problem in 2007 and try to get some positives into the Springbok team.  He used Larkham for the same purpose by coaching the Brumbies - but lost it completely while coaching the Sharks last year - so much so that the Sharks backline in fact self-destructed and we sit with the problem we have today.    It will take years of skills and game plan development to get over the backline nightmare of last year.


*    De Villiers was clueless and the team was run by senior players like Smit, Steenkamp, Bakkies Botha, Matfield, Juan Smith and co.  Please note the virtual total absence of backline players from that group.  The backline players used in that era was basically Du Preez and Pienaar at scrummie and the clueless Steyns at flyhalf.  


*       Meyer at least came to the conclusion that something is seriously amiss and started to look at improving backline play.  he eventually got rid of the core problem - Morne Steyn - and started to look at younger and more thinking players like Pollard and Lambie at flyhalf.  His progress was hampered last year because of regression in the performance of De Villiers and the fact that he went backwards because of the Jacque Fourie story.   There was a few positive signs - but every positive sign was not followed up since Meyer himself does not have the ability to properly develop skills of backline players and to implement a comprehensive game plan.      


The scrummies had no real game plan other than to make most of their passes back to the forwards or kicked the Sh!t out of balls - often enough not accurate as well. When they did pass the ball - the flyhalf kicked away aimlessly and inaccurately over 60% of the balls they handled during matches.   In the case of about a third of the balls they did pass - 75% were used for crashball purposes.   So what happens in reality?   Less than 5% of the balls delivered by the forwards ever reach any player outside of the no 12.  In some cases it is as low as 1%.   All the above is part of a totally inadequate and idiotic game plan of our present coaches.


But then the above garbage is written by an idiot so influenced by the  idiotic thinking of our coaches - that he can write that 90% of the functions of a flyhalf is to kick the ball.   So what does that mean?   A totally inadequate skills development programme for backline players and an idiotic game plan executed by dull and unimaginative players with a minimal degree of accuracy.    That is the level of backline play coaching and game plan development at present in SA.    


                   

   

               
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
10 Apr 2015, 14:07
#15
10 Apr 2015, 14:07#15
 Shezza thanks for the heads up, I look forward to seeing Duhan. At national level we usually have a few potent backs....it's at S15 level that we have a consistent deficiency. Although the only time in all the years I have watched Bok rugby that our backline was the best in the world was duriing the period of the du Plessis brothers, Gerber, Mordt and Reinach.
This has become more pronounced as Australia, the Poms and the French are also finding ways to tap into the Pacific pool. It's naive to blame the coaching.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
10 Apr 2015, 14:19
#16
10 Apr 2015, 14:19#16
 Mozart
People who think the coaching and the game plan has nothing to do with the development of backline players are the naive ones.   It has everything to do with it. 
Fact is that our coaches - other than Drotske and Ackerman - use a game plan and select players and coached them in accordance with that game plan.   The game plan basically entails the kick and chase game and players like Morne and Francois Steyn have always been regarded as the key to that game plan.  Since they are notorious inadequate in accuracy of execution - the plan frequently backfired and allow opposing teams to launch counter-attacks - costing us dearly.
Not a single thinking person would refer to the kick and chase game plan as adequate.   The strongest criticism of the plan were expressed by Naas Botha and Nic Mallett in frequent discussions of the games.
The main problem they have with the two mentioned  players have always been their failure to read games and use appropriate plays to maximise situations to the benefit of the teams they play for.   With extremely rare exceptions their passing game was always poor and instead of it creating opportunities for the backline to take advantage of - they destroy those opportunities.
If you can prove that inadequate coaching is not the core of the problem - you would have achieved a miracle assessment.   However, that miracle would never materialize.  Our problem relates directly to the inadequate coaching of our backline players and the out-of-date game plan that is being used because of the inadequate coaching and selection of players. 
By the way I mentioned Duhan van der Merwe already last year as a player to watch out for in future.  His brother is Akker van der Merwe - who plays for the Lions as hooker.   Could not believe it when it was mentioned.  Duhan is tall and very strong - Akker is short, very muscular and very strong.   The latter is likely to be the successor of Bismarck in future.         
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
10 Apr 2015, 15:11
#17
10 Apr 2015, 15:11#17
 Mozart
Lets add the following comment of Markgraaff to this thread:-

Former Springbok coach Andre Markgraaff is worried about the skills levels of South Africa’s top players.


Things are looking bleak for the SA teams in this year’s Super Rugby competition, with no local team looking like serious title contenders at present. 


If it weren’t for the requirement of each of the three Conference leaders automatically occupy the top three berths on the overall table, the best-placed SA franchise - the Bulls - would actually lie sixth.


They instead unconvincingly find themselves in third, with the high-flying Hurricanes and Australian pace-setting Brumbies ahead of them, but should really be behind all of the Chiefs, Highlanders and Crusaders as well. 


"We are too pattern-bound, even from primary school level. The only saviour is that we have so much talent in the country," Markgraaff told Netwerk24.


“We just seem incapable of attacking like the New Zealanders.”


The SA teams are struggling on attack, which shows in the try-scoring statistics.


To date, New Zealand teams have scored 90 tries (in 35 matches), Australian teams 70 (34 matches), and SA teams 65 (37 matches).


Markgraaff said if the rules regarding driving mauls are changed, then South African teams would be in even more trouble.


"The application of the law is farcical. We’d be in real trouble if the laws are changed. What would be left for us on attack?"


Markgraaff, 59, coached the Springboks between 1996 and 1997, but was forced to quit after making controversial racial statements."


Markgraaf made two very pertinent comments:-


*  "...is worried about the skills levels of South Africa’s top players."; and

*   "We are too pattern-bound, even from primary school level. The only saviour is that we have so much talent in the country,"


The above virtually confirm what I said earlier, namely that -


 *   the game plan used  is poor and inadequate; and

*   the coaching of players are inadequate.


In fact Markgraaf referred to the talent available in this country as a benefit - but it is obvious that the talent is not utilized and in fact wasted by our coaches.  


The day we get decent backline coaches and a more modern game plan is the day when SA starts improving in rugby performance.  

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
10 Apr 2015, 15:41
#18
10 Apr 2015, 15:41#18
 Oh what crap no back is running riot from any of the sides.....Danie needs to wake up to the fact that defences are far more structured than in the day he played.
He would make little impression in the modern game, much like Joost would and what little impression Habana makes now.
It's a far tougher game to make a marked impression these days.....It has stuff all to do with talent and everything to do with the modern game. 
Name a current Kiwi centre who makes the impression Gerber did in his day - ZERO.
Put Danie in the modern game and he would be doing no better than de Allende
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
10 Apr 2015, 15:44
#19
10 Apr 2015, 15:44#19
Exactly right Moz.
Aus and NZ have enhanced their talent edge with the inclusion of potent PI players in the S15 sides - who seem to have a perfect genetic mixture of size, speed and athleticism. We are foolish to be trying to compete on their terms. Who would go into a fight where the terms are dictated by their opponent? SA coaches are goaded and coerced into playing an open style of rugby with terms like "positive", "entertaining", "appealing". Coetzee fell into this trap 2013/2014 abandoning a highly successful defensive structure because of pressure to play "positive" rugby. The players themselves are coaxed into playing open rugby, conscious of a need to provide entertaining rugby (read Coetzee's comments after the Highlanders game where the players completely abandoned the game plan). Gold's comments after the Cheetahs loss show he's fallen into the same trap as he said there would be growing pains as they learned to play more attacking rugby. Yep, its been painful. Fans love to watch the Cheetahs play because of their style, but they are losers ..... mostly due to a terrible defense. In contrast, the Lions are overachieving, largely on the back of a stellar defense.
I get it - its thrilling to watch an open running game but SA teams will lose year after year as we cannot compete with that style of game. Too often our backline players get bullied, turned over or make an error turning the ball over when on attack and the ease and speed at which these NZ teams can counter attack and score is breathtaking. There is always an extra man in support and they outstrip any scramble or cover defense. On the other hand, a SA player breaks the line and he is more often than not isolated and turned over.
A lot of comments about our kick and chase game, but even in that we are losing the battle. We used to be the best in the world at putting a high ball 30m downfield or right outside the opponents 22 with a jumper contesting possession. Now, we kick too deep or don't have the structure to provide chasers when the kick is made. Both NZ and AUS teams are better at it than we are and often use it to create open field moments, its part of a well-rounded attack. 50/50 ball in your opponents half of the field is a great option if you can't break their defense.
South African teams have to play error free, disciplined, ball control rugby. Set pieces must be superior, defensive structures a priority, intelligent ball turnover a focus. These are all things that we can be the best in the world at and it is successful rugby. 
Until we can bridge the talent gap to fairly compete with open rugby, we're playing into their hands trying to do it. Imagine what any of the following players would bring to a SA S15 backline - signing this type of player is what we should be doing, as it is clear we do not have the ability to home grow this type of talent.
Malakai Fekitoa - TongaWaisake Naholo -  FijiFrank Halai - TongaNemani Nadolo - FijiHenry Speight - FijiTevita Kuridrani - FijiPatrick Osborne - FijiSamu Kerevi - FijiTaqele Naiyaravoro - Fiji
Add these guys to an already talented pool of players and it puts it over the top. Out of our reach.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
10 Apr 2015, 16:21
#20
10 Apr 2015, 16:21#20
 oimatey
I have a serious problem with  what you wrote above.   Fact is there are two issues at stake here, namely -
*   the skills development of all our players; and *   intelligence in performance of players.
Fact is that top enhance development of players you need top class coaching.   You are talking about ball recovery at breakdown situations, but how many of our players actually are effective in the relevant regard.   How many of our forwards can link up in attacking play with backline players?   
Nobody wants to play running rugby at all costs neither does anybody wants a kicking game at all costs.   Other than players like Pollard, Lambi and Reinach our halfbacks have minimal abilities to read games  and their decision-making and execution is most of the times abysmal.
The key is in coaching - the big players so often mentioned are coached to perfection - they did not reach their present level of performance without top class coaching.   Our problem is the issue of coaching and especially the coaching of backline players.   The usage of forwards or half-baked backline players to coach our backline players are where the wheels come off.   
Because of deficient coaching and an inadequate game plan developed - our players shows a serious lack of skills and an even more serious lack of ability to m ake decisions.   If we ever want to compete it will in the first instance require a vast improvement in our coaching and in the second instance a game plan used with due regard to the development of skills as a result of improved coaching.       
        
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
10 Apr 2015, 17:06
#21
10 Apr 2015, 17:06#21
Nope. Can't turn a cart horse into a thoroughbred just through coaching. You can fine tune talent, but you can't create it
At the top level (S15 / Intl) , a coaches primary focus cannot be on developing core skill level. The approach is much higher level and the focus is player management and motivation and high level game planning. You can blame a coach for a poor game plan or a team that lacks  but not for inferior skills. Spacial awareness, reading defenses and then the absolute natural ability to run, step and power through tackles you either have or you don't have. 
The proof is in the pudding - look at what happens to the sides where the coaches have "released the reins" a little. Cheetahs - perennial bottom of the log, Stormers 2013/2014 and some games this year, Sharks this year. South African teams primarily need structure, not improvisation and open play. 
Structured play doesn't mean kicking. Look at how the Stormers played and dominated the second half against the Hurricanes and periods against the Highlanders. Ball in hand, direct, frontal assault. Ball control and retention. Disciplined. Earn the right to go wide. And yes, the kick and chase should absolutely be a part of your attack. This type of rugby works, its successful and more importantly we have the personnel to make it happen.
In basketball, if you play a team that specializes in the fast break then you tailor your own attack in such a way that it doesn't leave you vulnerable to it. That's a universal concept of play.
But what I'm seeing is such an effort to play wide open "entertaining" rugby, throwing needless passes and offloads that aren't there that it leaves our defenses in tatters for these world class athletes to exploit.





OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
10 Apr 2015, 17:23
#22
10 Apr 2015, 17:23#22
Gerber was a phenomenal player, but the bottom line is that whenever he stepped onto the field he was usually the best athlete out there, a combination of speed, strength and agility that allowed him to dominate situations - head and shoulders above any other player on the field.
We can't say that about any of our backline players now.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
10 Apr 2015, 20:13
#23
10 Apr 2015, 20:13#23
 oimatey
I think we are not so fart apart as it may appear.   First there needs to be basic skills,  but the problem is that in case of a lot of our players the basic skills are missing.  They are selected because of their size and not their skill set.  I agree people without ball sense and skills cannot be corrected by any coach.   You have players like -
*   amongst the forwards Willem Alberts and many many others who cannot catch or pass a ball to save their lives; and
*   JJ Engelbrecht, Francois Steyn, Juan de Jongh, who does not have skills as basic as passing of balls and above all no idea about variation in their play - they run straight at the first defender and gets tackled, they lose possession of balls, etc.
There is nothing a coach can do to change those type of players into skilled players and nothing anyone can do to enhance their performances.   However, there are players with the skills that can be improved into useful players.  I am afraid that those players are useless -
*   insofar as ball retention is concerned - for instance last year Francois Steyn lost ball possession 32 times in 17 matches - a record for backline players in Super 15;
*   there are very few of our players - especially loosies - who are good enough in ball protection in breakdown situations; and
*   most of our halfbacks has a chronic inability to read games and act accordingly.
Lets take another example - in the Super 15 game between the Chiefs and the Stormers the flyhalf kicked the ball into the hands of the Chiefs back 3 time and time again and they allowed them to counter-attack and ultimately score tries.  When you see that a game plan does not work - the plan should be adjusted.  The Stormers halfbacks never adjusted their plan and keep repeating the same mistake continuously.
So where is coaching urgently needed bearing in mind you cannot as the Afrikaans saying goes "verander mis in botter".   Players devoid of skills can never be coached into getting basic skills - either they have it or they don't.  Those without skills will repeat the same thing like robots time and time again - they are easy to read and easy to counter.
What I was arguing about is not to coach players without basic skills - it is about developing the skill set of existing players.   The situation in SA is that although we have coaches able to deal with skills development of forwards - even low level skills often enough - we have virtually no coaches capable of advancing the skills sets of backline players.   Besides the fact that the wrong skill-deficient backline players are identified and selected for the wrong reasons - we have a failure amongst our top coaches to properly identify those players who have the necessary basic skills and the ability to read games and take strategic decisions.   
The other problem is the fact that skills are coached out of players by certain franchises.   Take the case of Jan Serfontein - the Player of the Tournament in the UWC in 2012.   He had a very good skill set - but make the mistake of signing a contract with the Bulls.  Instead of enhancing his skill set through constructive coaching - the Bulls game plan only has one requirement for centers - run straight at the first defender and crashball.   Serfontein has the skills, but -
*  those are not fine-tuned because the Bulls lacks a backline coach with the basic knowledge of coaching of backline players; and
*   their game plan does not allow for usage of the skills that a player like him has.
The few quality backline players we have in SA have a few things in common, namely -*   they did not allow the coaches to destroy their skill set by forcing them to play a specific limited game plan; and
*   they have plenty of ball sense and adjust their game according to circumstances that develop during specific games.
The main problem we have with our backline players are a robotic playing style by skill-deficient players without ball sense.   No coach can do anything about it - but a coach should be able to identify those players and shy away from them and our coaches are unable to do that as well.  On the other hand they should identify players with the potential of enhancing their skills - but they are even deficient in doing that.   
The problem is in the main our backline coaches in particular fail in every aspect of their functioning since they cannot even identify players with the potential to be developed further - leave alone develop the skills in players who could benefit from top class coaching.                                 
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
10 Apr 2015, 20:31
#24
10 Apr 2015, 20:31#24
Ok. Yes, agree we have some commonalities.
Which of our back line players would you say have the talent to be the equal of any in the list above if they were coached correctly? I'm interested because I don't see that kind of natural ability with the size/speed package and incredible finesse as well. (De Allende may be the lone exception)

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
10 Apr 2015, 21:11
#25
10 Apr 2015, 21:11#25
I don't see much talent in the SA s15 backs for whatever reason. I believe it is because of the SA rugby culture which is reflected in the coaching & in the player development.
Willie is like a hope and a prayer player so I don't rate him highly. Maybe he is like this because so much pressure is on his shoulders as there is little talent around him I don't know.
De Allende seems to have very good potential and has shown us something this season. We will see how he does going forward. Pollard is in the same category as far as I am concerned. Early days yet for both players.
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
10 Apr 2015, 21:16
#26
10 Apr 2015, 21:16#26
That's a good way to describe Willie. His creative inputs have become far too 50/50 to count on them being effective. It seems just as likely to end up with the ball being out of bounds or turned over somehow.
If I'm Meyer I'm thinking long and hard about a possible alternative, probably Lambie.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
10 Apr 2015, 21:17
#27
10 Apr 2015, 21:17#27
 oimatey
The list is unfortunately very short.  I would say that the following are players with ability:-
Willie le Roux, Jesse Kriel, Bryan Habana, Damien de Allende, Handre Pollard, Patrick Lambie, Cobus Reinach.
Anything beyond that list - you are dabbling with the impossible.  There are youngsters that I mentioned a year ago already like Duhan van der Merwe.  However, he is very young, but has represented SA already at the age of 17 in the Junior Sevens.  He has  the skill set - but those skills needs to be fine-tuned.  In this category is another kid to watch out for - EW Viljoen is in the WC training group and plays Under 19 rugby for WP at wing and full back.
You know my categories for backline player selection are the following:-
*   Big and muscular players with the necessary ball sense and ball skills;*   Smaller players with the necessary ball sense and ball skills;*   Big players lacking ball sense and ball skills;*   Small players  lacking ball sense and ball skills
Unfortunately our coaches are too involved with players in the third and even fourth categories above.     
Let me give you some info about Duhan - he is 1,94 tall and weighs 102 kgs and that was when he was 19 years old.  Now look at his older brother Akker playing at hooker for the Lions.  He is 1,78 meters  tall and weighs 108 kgs.  Duhan is exceptionally speedy for a wing - Akker is especially speedy for a hooker.    Can anyone comprehend two brothers being that different in size.   I think that Akker is the future Springbok hooker in the place of Bismarck and His brother may end up as Springbok wing.
EW Viljoen is 1,92 meters tall and at 19 years of age already weighs in at 92 kgs - will add another 3 or 4 kgs over the next two years.  Came from Grey College and is a real ball sense player.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
10 Apr 2015, 21:19
#28
10 Apr 2015, 21:19#28
The thing that I find ironical is, if you asked the average SA fan whether we produced better physical specimens at lock, most would agree. And of course they would be right. So why is it so hard to accept other countries produce better wings?
It's so obviously true, and  denying it comes with a cost....we try to match the Saders in open play!
Tell you what, I'd far rather have superior talent in the tight forwards than the outside backs.....but we have to be worldly enough to play to that advantage.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
10 Apr 2015, 21:42
#29
10 Apr 2015, 21:42#29
 Mozart
What you say are silly.   The fact is that you cannot have talented and physical forwards and end up with nothing of consequence in your backline.  That is why you are the one who says 90% of the functions of a flyhalf is kicking.  That means kick the ball away which your forwards get for you and since most of our flyhalfs and scrumhalfs are inaccurate and clueless in their kicking game - it represents only handing over possession to the opposition to counter-attack.
Rugby is a 15 man game - Not a five man game - not a eight man game - not a ten man game.   To have adequate players in positions 1 to 10 and nothing of substance outside of those is basically a recipe for disaster.   
We do not need dummies and players with inadequate ball sense and skills anywhere in the team - we do not need players like JJ Engelbrecht, Francois Steyn and Morne  Steyn anywhere near the team.   They are robots and badly programmed robots at  that.   
What we need are players with ball sense and ball skills - skills that can be fine -tuned.   There can be no generalizations about other countries producing better wings and we producing better locks.   The question is are the better players properly identified and if they have the basic skill set - which a lot of them do not have - and how is that skill set developed and improved upon?  
We had great wings in the past - why should we not find and develop great wings in future?   
The one thing that is absolute tommyrot is that any game plan -other than a kick and chase game - is apparently regarded by you as trying to match the Crusaders in open play.  Nobody wants that and nobody advocates that.  We need variety in our game plan and the decision-makers to implement that variety.  Our halfbacks should know when to make strategic kicks - when to pass - to whom to pass to etc.  Same applies to other backline players.  Our backline players should know the basics about running lines.  
The problem is we are stuck with the braindead in our backlines and that in itself makes us easy prey for any team with a reasonable backline.          
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
10 Apr 2015, 22:45
#30
10 Apr 2015, 22:45#30

I said, "Hey, you, get off of my cloud
Hey, you, get off of my cloud
Hey, you, get off of my cloud
Don't hang around boy two's a crowd
On my cloud baby"



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Apr 2015, 06:24
#31
11 Apr 2015, 06:24#31
 Mozart turns to idiocy again.   This time it is not childish photos - this time it is nursery school rhymes.
 That after he said that we cannot produce quality wings.  It is like saying that producing quality players is like running a factory.  We  switched off the production line to produce wings and switched on the production line to produce locks.  Obvious idiocy in evidence.
The question remains - do we identify the potential players with skills and coach them properly?  No we do not and our coaches fail us in that respect.  Only fools making generalized statements with no scientific basis can come up with idiocies like we have here.     

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
11 Apr 2015, 07:07
#32
11 Apr 2015, 07:07#32
CleverMike: Mozart is quoting a rolling stones song: Lyrics of Rolling Stones song Don't ask me why.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Apr 2015, 07:20
#33
11 Apr 2015, 07:20#33
 Sure - but that is typically Mozart.  He comes up with that type of thing to get away from the idiocies that he spreads all over this site when it comes to discussing rugby issues. 
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
11 Apr 2015, 07:26
#34
11 Apr 2015, 07:26#34
 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Apr 2015, 07:40
#35
11 Apr 2015, 07:40#35
 Mozart has succeeded again.  From discussing rugby issues we are now dealing with the B Rolling Stones.  Come to think about it - is it not typical of that loser to do that?
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
11 Apr 2015, 08:22
#36
11 Apr 2015, 08:22#36
Heya Mikey, there's another one called "Under my thumb"...watchout, he'll be singing that one soon. 
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
11 Apr 2015, 08:34
#37
11 Apr 2015, 08:34#37
 
Mike and Moz can never see eye to eye...the fraca has being going on for years...lol

https://youtu.be/7VO2NcQl2-g

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
11 Apr 2015, 09:00
#38
11 Apr 2015, 09:00#38
Sympathy for the Devil has a good beat
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
11 Apr 2015, 10:32
#39
11 Apr 2015, 10:32#39
 So much twaDDLE SPOKEN HERE. W ILL NEED TO HAVE A MOMENT TO CORRECT THE OAKS. 
— END OF THREAD —

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