MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 May 2015, 22:51#1
Heavy tackles, offloads while being crunched, superb long passes, flypaper pickups off the deck....superb tactical kicks. A mature performance that must have made HM feel a lot better about our scrambled centre options.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 May 2015, 02:24#2
Balls - you are ignorant again - and that is a fact. Fransie was better than he normally is, but there are still serious problems in his performances - as is evident from his stats:-
Steyn1/0136/6/93412209/30/000/0
Just have a look at his tackling stats and confirm that his missed tackle ratio of 25% is acceptable. The try he scored was a miracle one - he got the ball when there was no defenders in front of him and he had to score unless he fell over his own two feet.
I think that Serfontein's performance this Round was way better than Fransie's as is evident from the following:-
Serfontein2/0102/8/125112208/30/000/0
Two tries and the quality of the tries scored was much better than the try of Steyn. However, his defense was poor as well, but he was up against a player (Moala) who was outstanding in most of his recent matches - while Steyn's opponent was the bungling Beale - who had a shocker yesterday.
I would say Fransie is still about 5th in the line for Springbok selection at 12. All of the following are still ahead of him in the queue:-
Jean de Villiers, Damian de Allende, Jan Serfontein, Harold Vorster.
Even i f one of the above is selected at 12 and one of the others at 13, Fransie still is not good enough to be anywhere near the team.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 May 2015, 02:56#3
Pollard/ Frans/ de Allende looks the best combination. One satisfactory S15 game against the worst NZ team doesn't negate a whole year of nothing internationals.
None of the top teams will be at all concerned about Step.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 May 2015, 03:08#4
One good game in three years of useless under-performance and failures at center on Super 15 level and his questionable performances in the 2012 tests should be borne in mind as well.
Sorry Mozart - but even though Steyn for the first time this year showed some improvement in performance on Super 15 level - there is no way that he can be a serious contender for the no 12 Jersey of the Springboks.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 May 2015, 03:33#6
What a bugger up on the part of Mozart - but that is normal with him. The match he referred to constantly was NOT a test and the players were not credited with the game as Springboks. Go back to his performance on TEST level in 2012 and then come back with something positive. In any event constant failures on Super 15 level in 2013 and 2014 and in the majority of his matches on that level this year - certainly does not mean he will make it on TEST level.
For the first time in years Fransie did something positive in a game and now suddenly he is the player to be foiste d on the backline of the Springboks - what a JOKE!!!!!
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 May 2015, 03:51#7
Gosh and there I had so carefully selected Springbok colours ...just so we wouldn't get in this rut again. For one moment there I thought we might actually have a debate about the Bok centre situation. Silly me....it's back to the name calling.
17 May 2015, 08:26#8
Is Allande better than Frans?
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 May 2015, 08:39#9
M ozart
OK - lets get back to a debate on center selection for the Springboks. Insofar as the projected situation is concerned - the stories about Jean de Villiers be back and ready to play in the WC is getting more and more reported on in the media. However, Jean is an honest guy and he said himself that -
* that he does not expect to get a free ride into the team and will have to be selected on merit;
* that he will not make himself available if he feels his presence in the team will be detrimental to the team performance; and
* there are a number of players that is making a seriously good impression and could be potential candidates for Springbok selection that he will have to compete against in the selection stakes.
With regard to the latter he mentioned amongst others De Allende, Serfontein, Vorster and Odendaal, but in the list of players he did not mention Francois Steyn as a potential candidate. I do not think that Jean would have mentioned Vorster if he did not have had a talk with Meyer on the issue and Vorster is not on Meyer's watch list.
So lets look at the various possibilities assuming that Jean will be in the picture.
* Based on the fact that in the case of the Stormers over the past two years Jean preferred to play at 13 when De Allende was available and De Jongh not so - one can assume that the combination would be -
12 De Allende 13 De Villiers
* I think the above selection would also be the preferred one of Meyer, but if he decides that Jean should be the inside center, the 13 could come from one of the following - probably in the order as indicated:-
De Allende Serfontein Vorster Mapoe
There are in fact five candidates for the two places to be filled - with the merit order of Meyer the situation would probably be as follows:-
1. De Villiers 2. De Allende 3. Serfontein 4. Vorster 5. Mapoe
De Villiers, De Allende and Vorster are all 100 kgs plus players, Serfontein weighs 97 kgs and the only relatively light player is Mapoe - who may end up on the wing.
If any of the above is not available the next in line of the list will move up one slot. I think that the bench center will likely also come from the above list in the same order.
It would be interesting to see whom of the players mentioned will be on the contract list of SARU - the famous 42 with whom SARU is going to enter into new contracts with. Since it is evident that Jean will not play any further after the WC - he is unlikely to be contracted further and it is very likely that he may move into a coaching or commentating position as from next year.
Another consideration is that all the above players bar Jean are in their early 20's and that would mean that they would be available for up to even 10 years from now for selection. A sound foundation to build on in my opinion - since there are other players like Odendaal, Jesse Kriel and from the Under 20's (Jackson and Du Plessis) that could come through and compete with the above as well. Sorry - but I do not think and Francois Steyn himself implied he thinks so himself that he will be a candidate in competition for center selection in future.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 May 2015, 09:05#11
hakwa
For me the norm is continuous performance on the required scale and with Steyn that was not in evidence since his return from France in 2012. He had very few acceptable games and even though he was better yesterday - there are better youngsters available for selection.
The best center combination - if De Villiers is not available - would be De Allende and Vorster. I would like to see those two playing together - will be a serious headache for the geriatric two of New Zealand - Nonu and Conrad Smith - or even the "big show" Williams .
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 May 2015, 09:32#12
Frans is looking a bit better but also still looks pretty slow. He will need to do more to secure a RWC place on merit.
17 May 2015, 16:01#14
Moz have you caught up with Vorster? I can give you a link where you can watch all the Lions games so you can assess Vorster more, honestly he's looking the goods so far and is a potential Bok.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 May 2015, 16:31#15
mOzart
I would not put Steyn in that mix at all. Steyn is a reputation player who has been poor since he came back from France. He has slowed down badly.
You mentioned the following:-
"Powerful, dominating defence is the recipe to set up turnover ball....the only effective means of attack against the knockout opponents. So we need physically dominating centres....an easy choice as that excludes no great options."
"The choices lie between Frans, de Allende, Step, JP and Vorster. And with Pollard at 10....it would be vastly preferable that one of the centres has gravitas, the experience of playing in big games. That comes with Frans and JP....and of the two Frans has more strings to his bow. That more or less settles 12 and nixes Step at 12....all good so far".
He may have experience - but I am afraid that Frans has lost a lot over the past five years. and there is very little gravitas left. He lost a lot of speed and he gets dominated by other centers - one of which was De Allende. To play a person purely because 5 years ago he had experience in playing in big games is meaningless. It would have been meaningful if his performances since 2012 justified it - but in the main he was way below par for most of the matches he played in - whether you like it or not. He has also continued with a problem in defense - something which was problematic in the 2007 WC final - where he missed 4 tackles in the game.
What Frans has lost is his ability to dominate the opposition by making line breaks and beating defenders. He has through the whole Super 15 series last year made 2 line breaks and beat 8 defenders, while during the whole season he made 8 off- loads. That indicates a center with minimal abilities and no domination at all.
As to JP - it was clear in 2012 that he is not a good enough center and that showed up in virtually every game he played at 13 ever since. JP is essentially not a center and as he has lost speed massively over the last two seasons I do not think he should be selected at all.
With all due respect you are wrong with both Steyn and JP as centers - and to even consider them would kill our backline off - both in attack and in defense.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 May 2015, 17:00#16
Shezza I like what I see of Vorster....but I haven't watched all his games. So please give me the link. What impresses me most is he gets involved and is he agressive. He also has a good cut onto the ball a bit like Joe Cool.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 May 2015, 18:37#18
Mozart
For ease of reference I will summarise Vorster's performances since he came into the Lions team - as reflected in the ESPN Stats:-
Playing at 12
Stormers
Vorster0/001/1/2201007/30/040/0
Blues
Vorster0/003/2/618000111/20/000/0
Crusaders
Vorster0/001/5/71100211/10/000/0
Reds
Vorster1/051/5/747121111/30/000/0
Bulls
Vorster0/001/4/71600036/10/000/0
Sharks
Vorster1/051/6/1150110214/10/010/0
Cheetahs
Vorster0/001/0/88725014/00/000/0
Playing at 13
Bulls
Vorster0/001/1/74932123/10/000/0
Highlanders
Vorster1/050/5/74914236/20/000/0
Brumbies
Vorster0/000/0/98424039/30/000/0
Discussion
It was evident that in his first few games he struggled to find his feet - but when eh did he came on strongly. There are still a few things he has to improve on - but these also improved as time went on.
So lets analyse his performances thus far in Super 15 by summarizing his stats:-
At 12
Vorster2/0109/23/482314183844/110/050/0
At 13
Vorster1/051/6/231826103818/60/000/0
Total
Vorster3/01510/29/71413102861662/170/050/0
Looking at the above - there are some clear indications of the players strength and weaknesses, but ti should be borne in mind that he played his first Super 15 game this year in March and since he started to find his feet on that level - his progress has been spectacular - and that in fact in just 10 matches played.
So lets look at his performances in the relevant ten matches:-
* He scored 3 tries - this might be regarded as insignificant - but if it is borne in mind that in his whole career on Super Rugby level, Francois Steyn only scored 7 tries is showed some real class in the case of Vorster.
* In his initial matches Vorster kicked the ball a few times - but that dried up in later matches where he became more confident in carrying the ball.
* It is clear that Vorster should have to improve his passing game, which should entail a higher percentage of passes than is at present in evidence.
* He is excellent in line breaks - 10 line breaks and in the process beating 28 tackles is an indication of a physically very strong center. Compare this to Francois Steyn's performance in 2014 - where in the whole series he made 2 line breaks and beat 8 defenders, it is indeed a top class rating.
* He has the ability to off-load balls in tackles.
* His ball possession losses are too high and he will have to make sure he does not get isolated when he carries balls.
* During the 10 games played he made 62 tackles - but he missed 17 attempted tackles. His missed tackle ratio is 21,5% - which is too high (an acceptable ratio would be 10 to 12%
I have highlighted his strong points and the issues not highlighted shows where he needs to improve. His major problems actually occurred in his initial matches and since then - there were sustained improvements in performances as he became more sure of himself in matches. What is clear is that he is on an upward trend in performances and that he has massive potential. I think that he has shown more at 13 than he did at 12 - so I think he is more suited to the no 13 position.
18 May 2015, 09:49#19
Vorster and Allende aye. I better ring Hansen now to let him know
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
18 May 2015, 15:59#20
Michael. You still aren't providing any context to those stats. Until you do, they are meaningless numbers that can be used very loosely to prove anything.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 May 2015, 16:20#21
Letsal
Francois Steyn has the poorest stat of any inside center in line breaks and the least defenders beaten in the process in Super 15 last year. He has the second worst tackling stats of all 12's in SA. He broke a record for possession losses by any backline player when he lost possession 32 times last year in Super 15. He was the only center in Super 15 that never scored a try last year. In his whole career in Super Rugby - and he played Super Rugby in 2005-09 and again from 2012-15 - he scored only 7 tries.
Those figures cannot be disputed, what context can be put to them? Context can apply to one match or two matches - but over a series trends and tendencies are established and that cannot be contested.
Fact is in the tests in 2012 Frans was Sh!t poor - when he tried to make relieving k icks in his own 22 - the ball twice rolled along the ground. Reason he was too fat to see his feet and could not kick properly. He was grossly overweight in 2013 and was dropped after 4 matches from the starting team because he was so poor - and in 2014 his only asset was he kicked well at goal.
In his first four matches this year in Super 15 he was a joke - got a yellow card in the first match and a red in the third match - getting a five weeks ban in the process. The Sharks was so poor this year - any slight improvement resulted in Hallelujah Fransie solely was responsible for the improvement.
If over the last three three years did perform well, he made a determined effort not to show it in reality.
It is a pity that he has gone so far back in performances. When I heard he was coming back to the Sharks after his stint with Racing Metro I was delighted by the news. It took me exactly three months to realize why his Club did not ask him to stay on - he was not a shadow of the player he used to be and a serious disappointment when it came to performances.
18 May 2015, 16:30#22
You tell em Mike!! I agree, he is not the player he used to be. I have never been a fan of the guy, but he did bring X-factor to the game early on in his career, but that x-factor is long gone!
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
18 May 2015, 16:55#23
When he lost possession? As a primary ball-carrier into traffic did you not consider the role of the cleaners? What was the support? You cannot judge a 12 by tries scored. I can tell you he contributed to a considerable amount of successful attacking movements just by being a decoy. He is a serious force on the ground and has the best pass of all our 12s, be it at length or in contact. He is also the best defensive 12 and a fantastic communicator and leader.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 May 2015, 19:01#24
Letsal
Most of his possession losses in fact stemmed from inaccurate kicking, a few because he knocked on balls and the rest because he isolated himself and the loosies were not there in time to protect and recover the bal.
For the rest I have never seen Fransie being a decoy runner in any games he played in. Fransie has over the lats three years more inaccurate in passing than other 12's. Like his kicking game his passing game borders on the inaccurate. One of the keys to a good passing game is the timing of passes and that is one issue where Fransie is not good at.
The key of a 12 and for that matter a 10 as well is the ability to read games and take quick and effective decisions to the benefit of the team. Fransie is a slow decisionmaker and that is a negative in both a center and a flyhalf.
Your idea of beating anybody in discussions is based on the smokescreen you present as facts and then decide for yourself that you have beaten me or anybody else in discussions. Most of your statements about players are without a factual support base and dreaming on your part that the players did what you in your dreams hope they would do.
One thing is for sure - Fransie was useless in the tests he played in in 2012 - but then he was playing outside Morne Steyn and anybody playing outside of Morne is saddled with a very heavy load to carry and at a huge disadvantage.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
18 May 2015, 19:15#25
Because he isolated himself, a rather interesting interpretation. So what you are telling me is that the Sharks do not have a policy on supporting the ball carrier? How laughable! You do not run to your support ol chap, your support follows you! If they cannot clean out after Frans carries it into heavy traffic then the Sharks have a lot of clearing out to do. Your interpretation on kicking is not quite as hilarious but still garners a cheeky chuckle or two.
In 2012 Meyer had a very limited game-plan because he had to rebuild the entire Bok pack. It wasn't until 2013 that he expanded on that 2012 model once we had established combinations that could provide a solid platform. To blame that on Morné or Frans is foolish if not disgusting and is under-girded by a serious lack of knowledge of Bok rugby.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 May 2015, 19:41#26
Balls - you really are the one with a serious lack of knowledge of rugby and the ability to dream up things done by the Steyns. Morne was dropped from the Springbok team because of piss-poor performances in 2012 - Fransie for the same reason in 2013 from the Sharks team. No amount of verbal diarrhea on those facts will obliterate them.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
19 May 2015, 15:03#27
Morné was dropped because of pressure from fans, not because of performance.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 May 2015, 16:04#30
You didn't see Ioane hand him off like rag doll....shades of Jordaan
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 May 2015, 16:37#31
Mozart
Why should Fransie - whose record since his return from France borders on the disastrously poor category as proven by his stats game after game be regarded as the no 1 choice at center?
JP who has a serious record as a flop at 13 and was definitely never up to standard in that position is your no 2. He never showed anything at 13 and never will - his defense is poor whenever he plays in that position and he shares one thing with Fransie - both are as slow as carthorses - slow carthorses at that.
Sorry to disagree - but your selections are based on substandard performance and that is a disastrous way to approach team selection.
21 May 2015, 13:00#34
Didn't he have problems with his shoulder or wrist Mike?
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
21 May 2015, 13:16#35
Destroyed? Lambie did that. The hole Lambie-Morné debacle highlights the favoritism that goes on in SA. In 2011 on the back of a record away loss to NZ and a loss to AUS where Lambie had 3 charge downs, 0 tackles and stuffed up the game winning try after Aplon gased 6 defenders, Lambie was hailed a God. That despite Morné making more tackles, kicking more securely and beating more defenders and passing much, much better in a game where Lambie was many meters too deep every time he got the ball.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 May 2015, 13:43#36
Letsal
Are you daft or just plain constantly delirious. You were asked two questions about Morne Steyn and went on about Lambie - who was never mentioned in any discussion. Are you obsessed with the guy or just plain crazily stupid.
Morne did not play well against Argentina. In the test in Pretoria he nearly gifted a try to Argentina by getting charged down 5 meters out. Desperately slow in reaction - hench the charge-down. If it was not for De Allende the Pumas would have scored a try. Conveniently forgot about that one?
In the second test against Argentina late in the game immediately after SA took the lead - the Argentinians kicked the ball in from the half-line. A maul was formed about 15 meters inside SA territory and the ball came out. The ball was passed to Morne and under no pressure whatsoever - he kicked the ball directly out of touch. Scrum on the spot and the Springboks under serious pressure. Luckily they did not concede a penalty and held out - otherwise the game would have been lost.
The above two examples are Morne - plain and simple - but is conveniently forgotten or ignored by you. His disaster in the Perth test was just a continuation of total and utterly Sh!t performances.
You talk about hating a player - but what about your obsessive hatred of Lambie and your constant fabrication of rubbish about him. By the way I do not hate any player - I just do an objective assessment of performances and when I could find positives I mention them. However, with some players positives are rare - because of constant poor performances. I do not manufacture things to credit or discredit players - that I leave to you.
21 May 2015, 13:44#37
I cannot fault Pollard at present
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
22 May 2015, 11:40#38
Michael I do not hate Lambie. That much is reflected in me only talking rugby, whereas you will attack players personally, such as your atrocious attack on de Jongh, need I remind you? Everything I have ever said about the way Lambie plays is reflected in the game footage.
What you are doing with Morné is attempting revisionist history. You will deny the positives or the overall contribution and then begin building a false narrative. Not a single test that you have ever attributed Bok woes has ever fallen down to him. Not a solitary one. You can point to the odd mistake but you are still missing the big picture. You will bemoan a charge down, the only one I can ever recall happening, yet you absolved Lambie of blame being charged down in the Bok 22 against England! Also the three charge downs against Australia in 2011. There have been several more charge downs that you repeatedly defended! Yet Morné's solitary one was in terrible conditions. And you try to have us all believe that Morné kicks every ball in touch and deny the pressure he exerts with his boot. You completely denied the role Morné has played in Bok attacking success over the past few years as well. That's when a person is bitter and hate-filled. When they will not acknowledge when someone does something right. Morné has never been a defensive liability, I have debunked that myth. Morné has never been anything you have tried to make him out to be. I have consistently debunked everything. The game footage has bared witness against you, and you always end up with egg all over your face.
Nothing has been forgotten. I know those tests very well, having dealt with those issues many times now. Morné made one mistake in that Perth test, but the biggest mistake of that test was made by Lambie himself. Now here is where your serpentine qualities come to the fore. After the ball travels 60 meters upfield, and several missed tackles ensue, you come to the conclusion that Morné lost the test. I queried you as to who jumped the line and opened up our defence for the try. You were sheepishly quiet. Lambie costs us a try, directly costs us a try. And you come to the conclusion that Morné was the key factor. If you are right, then I suppose Du Preez must be to blame for the Boks World Cup exit, after all, several passes before Lambie over-ran the last chance for the Boks to win that game Du Preez passed the ball. So clearly he must be at fault, because the whole debacle would never have happened otherwise. Such fraudulent logic. The murky world of a liar. As per the tackle stats, Morné is a fighter who chases down every last chance to make a tackle. A lot of them are from behind as a cover defender with finger tip grasps in lost causes. But he will chase those causes nonetheless. He seldom gets run at, but then you go through the numbers and tell everyone he does and then lie about where and when those "missed" tackles occurred and their impact on the game.
You are lost, and to be honest, your posts have deteriorated over the years. Your misuse and over-reliance on numbers without context has stripped you of any real rugby clout. Your penchant for the lie has made your contributions far less than what they were in earlier years. I can debunk you easily. But you can never get a liar to admit they are captive to their own warped delusions. That's a battle I can never win.
22 May 2015, 13:11#39
Apart from that last paragraph you do have some fair points @Lestat
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 May 2015, 03:33#40
Steyn had a shocker against the Reds - how far does the Letsal idiot get this time. This is his latest stats and I would just do a little evaluation of his stats:-
Steyn0/0112/6/2001215/30/010/0
* No gain in territory in carrying the ball twice - he was tackled behind the gain line;
* lost ball possession once;
* made 5 tackles and missed 3 in 8 tackle attempts - missed tackle ratio 37,5%;
* gave away a penalty
His only positives were -
* converted three penalties and a try conversion; and
* made 2 ineffective off-loads
Two of the four conversions were sitters - two were rather more difficult.
