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FORUM / RUGBY /  Hoe serious is the Terrorism Threat in Europe?

Hoe serious is the Terrorism Threat in Europe?

Started by clevermike47 REPLIES655 VIEWS· 18 Nov 2015, 08:23
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Nov 2015, 08:23
#1
18 Nov 2015, 08:23#1
The emphasis in public at present is on France - where there were two serious attacks - but is that really the only problems.  The latest news from France indicates an extremely serious problems, namely -
*   finding weapons and even a rocket launcher during search operations in private homes in France; and*   a gun battle against three (?) people holed up in a flat in the Paris suburb of St Denis.
However, Belgium is also involved and the situation in that country apparently has turned areas in the country a hotbed of terrorism - the attack on the Yewish Museum and a foiled attack in a train travelling from Amsterdam to Paris - where the terrorist got onto the train in Belgium.
In the meantime a soccer match between the Netherlands and Germany be cancelled because of a "serious bomb" threat.
In the case of Russia a plain was brought down in Sinia by a bomb and it must be borne in mind that Chesnian terrorists are key elements of both Al Qaeda and Isis.   
There is no sign yet of problems in Germany and England other than reports that police has caused a number of attempts being aborted.
Looking at the above things are indeed serious and it seems as if things are not going to get better and the only question is where are the terrorists going to strike in future.        
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
18 Nov 2015, 14:12
#2
18 Nov 2015, 14:12#2
 It is very serious and will be getting more so, I'm afraid. There have been more than two attacks in France this year, Mike. They are bearing the brunt of it and we all know they gave been very lax in dealing with the problem until now, as it hasn't suited the EU and their ridiculous purpose. I'm afraid the French have decided enough is enough and look at how they can act, and how swiftly ? 
You are forgetting the 30 odd Britons gunned down on holiday a few months ago, Mike. Another attack was prevented there in the past couple of weeks. 
We have a security service here that is used to working itself into the ground to attempt to prevent terrorist atrocities. We have had to do so for years, we had the IRA and if they had the wherewithal, or the will to blow themselves to kingdom come, we would have been in a jolly worse state than we were back then. It was bad enough as it was. But we are only a hairs breadth away from something nasty and I'm sure it will come. There is not a week goes by without arrests under the Terrorism Act. 
And something which may interest you, as these atrocities were occurring in France, in Bedford there was a " Quiz a Muslim " evening where British Muslims discussed ISIS and all things regarding them ( the panel included a former Guantanamo Bay inmate who gained £1 million from the Govt ) They decided that they agreed with ISIS, that they wished to create a Caliphate in Britain and they should demand the right to help form the Laws of this country. Is this unacceptable, do you think and should these people be spoken to about their views ? 
Now we are already having to endure Halal slaughter, female genital mutilation cases have increased exponentially and some areas of the country are practising Sharia Law in direct contravention of our own Laws. Another School informed parents that all chicken would be Halal from this week and if you didn't like it, send a packed lunch for your child. This is why people get cross. It is not acceptable and causes friction.
They are now fairly sure that at least 6 people have the same passport as the one found near the body of the suicide bomber on Friday. He arrived in Greece, via Syria, on a migrant vessel and travelled to France. They know this as they fingerprinted him there. His passport gave the name of a man they now believe to be a Syrian soldier who was killed. Another migrant has been picked up with the same passport in Serbia and they think they have traced four other users. As you can see, this is one issue of mass migration that I was raising last week before I was shouted down. It makes it massively difficult for the people trying to keep us all safe when they have no idea who the heck most of these people are. 
Poland wish to round up the young, fit men ( of which there are tens of thousands ) and send them back to Syria as a fighting force, to defend their own country. They say it is not acceptable to expect the men of the West to be sent there to die or be maimed whilst they sit around outside the cafes of Germany, France, Belgium, England etc etc drinking coffee and playing on their iPhones. So they wish to train them and send them to fight for their country and the people they have left behind. And, as they keep saying ISIS use rape as a tool of war like no other invading force has, although I do question that given the Vikings/Russians , why have they left their mothers/wives/sisters/daughters/aunts etc etc to that fate ? I really can't comprehend what sort of man would do that. 
All I do know is, we are in this for the long haul and lots of bad things will come along the way. And many innocent people will be caught up in it; and that includes all the poor people ISIS are busy slaughtering, the ones now being bombed in order to save them and the rest of us here !! 
The world truly has gone insane, I think  
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
18 Nov 2015, 14:53
#3
18 Nov 2015, 14:53#3
 Like the man said "we have nothing to fear but fear itself " By all means take the needed precautions but carrying on your life as you would otherwise robs them of their only real weapon .After all when you get right down to your day to day life what effect do these creatures have on you ? Is it only through laws enacted in a knee-jerk reaction by your own government ? It may sound harsh but 100 a 1,000 even 10,000 compared to the fight to the finish that was WW2  is a pin-prik.And if your going to go to war damn well take the gloves off and do it properly.Or dont bother .
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
18 Nov 2015, 15:01
#4
18 Nov 2015, 15:01#4
 I had to spend time in France and Germany in the 80s on a repatriation mission .We got a good look at our NATO allies including the then BOAR and US Centag units .A tiny fraction of that power not even including the French would utterly destroy isis ,but it takes time and an indifference to any and all casualties from the public .And biting the bullet and backing an animal like Assad as the least evil choice .
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
18 Nov 2015, 15:03
#5
18 Nov 2015, 15:03#5
It's hard to fight a war when the enemy could be anywhere and anyone, though, isn't it ? It's become unconventional these days and that makes it more difficult. 
But I agree, the lack of action, and even the way in which the Govts have acted to aid these people to assimilate into societies/radicalise susceptible people/return from training camps etc, is downright lunacy ! 
Make a plan and stick to it, as difficult as that may be. But the issue has always been, the underlying agenda of them all.....what are they actually playing at ? We think we know some of the reasoning and it is unacceptable. 
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
18 Nov 2015, 15:19
#6
18 Nov 2015, 15:19#6
 The Brits used to know how to fight unconventional wars ,even on British soil but Malaya being the textbook example of a guerrila war fought sucessfuly and fighting the IRA the other .Isis and other fanatics muslim ,christian or whatever have no clear or logical outcome in mind .You cant treat it like you do a political guerilla war but you can use some of the proven methodology .Seperate them from their funding .Create safe places for the general populace in places like Syria so their people have something to defend and go back to .Give captured isis critters to their muslim enemies , no bloody hands no politcal fallout from Guantanamo type places and no more live martyers .If a western country kills isis mongrels even their muslim enemies object or harbour resentment against the infidel killing muslims .
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
18 Nov 2015, 15:43
#7
18 Nov 2015, 15:43#7
Agree completely, Wardad. 
Although, it is the agenda in the creation of ISIS in the first instance that one always has to keep in mind. We helped create and train them....they are Frankenstein's monster, in a manner of speaking. Another Bin Laden, used for a purpose....only this time, they have acted quickly, not festered for years. 
But the agenda behind the creation, the removal of Assad, the control of the oilfields, the part that Israel wishes to take into expansion in Syria.....this is why we have not yet acted so decisively and it is wrong. It has taken Russia's intervention, and now the hand of France being forced, to change the pattern....what course do they all take now ? 
My brothers girlfriends father ( oh goodness, keep up  ) was in Malaya. It's where he met her mother. They became the archetypal army family. He sadly died a few years back so we never met. 

AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
18 Nov 2015, 16:38
#8
18 Nov 2015, 16:38#8
Unfortunately this is self inflicted wound that is going to change the Western way of life forever.
All the weak leadership show by heads of state and the bleeding hearts of the people of Europe has come home to haunt them.
True facts yet we cannot seem to pinpoint the problem:
The shoe bomber was a MuslimThe Beltway snipers were MuslimThe Fort Hood shooter was a MuslimThe underwear  bomber was a MuslimThe USS Cole bombers were MuslimsThe Madrid train bombers were MuslimsThe Bali nightclub bombers were MuslimsThe London subway bombers were MuslimsThe Moscow theater bombers were MuslimsThe Boston Marathon bombers were MuslimsThe Pan-Am flight #93 were MuslimsThe Air France Entebbe Hijackers were MuslimsThe Beirut US Embassy bombers were MuslimsThe Libyan US Embassy bombers were MuslimsThe Buenos Aires suicide bombers were MuslimsThe Israeli Olympic Team attackers were MuslimsThe Kenyan US Embassy bombers were MuslimsThe Saudi, Khobar Towers bombers were MuslimsThe Beirut Marine Barracks bombers were MuslimsThe Besian Russian School attackers were MuslimThe first World Trade Center bombers were MuslimsThe Bombay & Mumbai Indian attackers were MuslimsThe Achille Lauro Cruise ship attackers were MuslimsThe September 11th @001 Airline Hijackers were Muslims
Think of it:
Buddhists living with Hindus = No problemHindus living with Christians = No problemHindus living with Jews = No problemChristians living with Shintos = No problemShintos living with Confucians = No problemConfucians living with Baha'is = No problemBaha'is living with Jews = No problemJews living with Atheists = No problemAtheists living with Buddhists = No problemBuddhists living with Sikhs = No ProblemSikhs living with Hindus = No problemBaha'is living with Christians = No problemChristians living with Jews = No problemJews living with Buddhists = No problemBuddhists living with Shintos = No problemShintos living with Atheists = No problemAtheists living with Confucians = No problemConfucians living with Hindus = No problem
But:Muslims living with Hindus = ProblemMuslims living with Buddhists = ProblemMuslims living with Christians = ProblemMuslims living with Jews = ProblemMuslims living with Sikhs = ProblemMuslims living with Baha'is = ProblemMuslims living with Shintos = ProblemMuslims living with Atheists = ProblemMUSLIMS LIVING WITH MUSLIMS = BIG PROBLEM
So this leads to:
Muslims not happy in GazaMuslims not happy in EgyptMuslims not happy in LibyaMuslims not happy in MoroccoMuslims not happy in IranMuslims not happy in IraqMuslims not happy in YemenMuslims not happy in AfghanistanMuslims not happy in PakistanMuslims not happy in SyriaMuslims not happy in LebanonMuslims not happy in KenyaMuslims not happy in NigeriaMuslims not happy in Sudan
So just where are they happy:
Muslims are happy in AustraliaMuslims are happy in AustriaMuslims are happy in EnglandMuslims are happy in BelgiumMuslims are happy in ItalyMuslims are happy in GermanyMuslims are happy in FranceMuslims are happy in SwedenMuslims are happy in USAMuslims are happy in CanadaMuslims are happy in NorwayMuslims are happy in India
Yep the Muslims are happy in almost every country that is not ISLAMIC! so who do they blame?Not IslamNot their leadershipNot themselvesTHEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THAT THEY ARE HAPPY IN!!THEY WANT TO CHANGE THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN, TO BE LIKE THE COUNTRIES THAT THEY CAME FROM WHERE THEY WERE UNHAPPY!
So what are their major organizations:
Islamic Jihad: An Islamic terror organizationISIS: An Islamic terror organizationAl-Qaeda: An Islamic terror organizationTaliban: An Islamic terror organizationHamas: An Islamic terror organizationHezbollah: An Islamic terror organizationBoko Haram: An Islamic terror organizationAl-Nusra: An Islamic terror organizationAbu-Sayyaf: An Islamic terror organizationAl-Badr: An Islamic terror organizationMuslim Brotherhood: An Islamic terror organizationLashkar-e-Taiba: An Islamic terror organizationPLO: An Islamic terror organizationAnsaru: An Islamic terror organizationJemaah Islamiyah: An Islamic terror organizationAbdull ah Azzam Brigades: An Islamic terror organization.
Now after all this we still cannot figure out just who is causing the problem!!!!!!!!!
So relax and enjoy the rest of your day because the Muslims are coming to your neighbor soon.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Nov 2015, 17:17
#9
18 Nov 2015, 17:17#9
 Read this serious and very long article which explains why ISIS is different....explains the nature of the Caliphate


http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
18 Nov 2015, 18:43
#10
18 Nov 2015, 18:43#10
 Those of us who know our history already know about the Caliphate, Mozart. We know how far it stretched, we know of the brutality and we know why we have feared watching ISIS march their way from country to country. It is why we have feared our Govts allowing tens of thousands of young, fit men to flood to our countries when they have no idea who they are or where they are from and, I have to say, these young men seem very keen on fighting anyone they meet en route or anyone who disagrees with them once they are in their " chosen " land. It is a shame they have not stayed to fight for their own countries, families and liberties; something not lost on generations who survived the last War and something they have been very vocal about in recent months. 
It is also wonderful to at last read the myriad commentators putting right those who keep parroting the line about the Muslim world having been subjugated by us all since the Crusades, because " we started it " ( as if that somehow makes things right ) The truth, as any history scholar knows, is that it was they who invaded Europe first, reaching, you guessed it, France ( Tours, to be exact ) until Martel sent them packing and the Crusades developed from this as a method of trying to prevent them invading Europe again. 
The lunacy just needs to stop. 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Nov 2015, 18:46
#11
18 Nov 2015, 18:46#11
Read the article, it's worth the effort.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
18 Nov 2015, 18:49
#12
18 Nov 2015, 18:49#12
 Arsholes have used religion to justify their actions for as long as history is recorded.  Only way to stop this is by getting the other Moslems rejecting this big time....and that won't happen while women and children are dying under Western bombs. The rest of the world is constantly fueling the fire. The only way to stop this is feet on the ground with the biggest priority being the protection of the innocent. Too expensive for most countries. ..so this will go on. Elections are more important than anything else.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,280 posts
18 Nov 2015, 19:39
#13
18 Nov 2015, 19:39#13
The West should never have got involved, but it too late now.It is a bad idea to let the refugees into Europe or anywhere else. It is unfortunate but some of them will allways be on the other side. 
Given the west and just about everyone else is involved- 
The only way to deal with these religious fanatics that are killers is to destroy them. They need to be obliterated so the next new terrorist kid on the block thinks twice.


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Nov 2015, 20:02
#14
18 Nov 2015, 20:02#14
 read the article....you guys are uninformed
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
18 Nov 2015, 21:09
#15
18 Nov 2015, 21:09#15
I actually read the article a number of days ago, Mozart. An American friend of mine, who had no idea about the situation regarding ISIS or indeed about the Caliphate, sent me it after the French situation on Friday. 
Was it Saturday she sent it on ? Would that be right ? In any case, I read it when it was sent to me. 
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
18 Nov 2015, 21:34
#16
18 Nov 2015, 21:34#16
 Sharkbok, talking like a true IS opposite....like flip side of the same coin.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,280 posts
18 Nov 2015, 21:41
#17
18 Nov 2015, 21:41#17
 Ha ha Draad, run along back to your masters at KampStaalstraad
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
18 Nov 2015, 21:51
#18
18 Nov 2015, 21:51#18
 I could have started this post with FOSB, but it's getting stale, even for my small mind. Think what you will, no skin off my back. I stand by my principles and am not phased by ignorant accusations by those not knowing elbow from arse. Enjoy the bliss. 
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
18 Nov 2015, 21:55
#19
18 Nov 2015, 21:55#19
 It is not that simple, Draad. 
No moderate Muslim, as we keep hearing, gives two figs about those who practice this branch of extreme Religion, so they can all be slaughtered for all they care. And they do not care about the Christians dying under Western bombs, because there are some of those too, so they will not act there either. They do not care about the other moderate Muslims being slaughtered by any if the extreme Muslim groups across the globe currently waging their little Holy War; if they did they would be joining ranks and doing something about it. But they are not. 
And in the European countries, all they are doing is trying to force their ways upon largely secular or Christian communities. Ways that are polar opposites of the countries they are living in, They also seem incapable of getting along with each other in said countries. 

ISIS need stopping. We will all suffer if they are not stopped. Because they are killing more Muslims than Westerners, let's face it ! And in the most barbaric of ways. 
So please, for once, cut out blaming the West for every ill, accept the part everyone is playing in this horrific tableau. Because it will get worse before it gets better and this will last for a long while yet. 
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,280 posts
18 Nov 2015, 22:10
#20
18 Nov 2015, 22:10#20
Not one country or religion can claim to be anywhere near perfect- but ISIS is pure evil. 
It needs to be met with force and destroyed. I don't support war often- but I do support war against the ISIS
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
18 Nov 2015, 22:18
#21
18 Nov 2015, 22:18#21
 Becs, where did I blame the West? It is quite simple really, bombs and guns don't work to liberate anyone if innocents are caught in the middle. Sitting in Londen and Washington ordering bombs to rain on civilians halfway accross the world does not buy compassion from the Arrab world. Hundreds of thousands killed seems a bit more serious than about 140. I know it's not that simple and that there are reasons for why the west do what the do in the ME, but I'm not the one who's got nothing to lose at home, willing to strap on a bomb for Allah. We cannot measure different societies by our yardsticks and expect them to just agree.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Nov 2015, 22:40
#22
18 Nov 2015, 22:40#22
 Draad you would benefit from reading the article I referenced....you are way, way off base here.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
18 Nov 2015, 23:52
#23
18 Nov 2015, 23:52#23
 If blaming murdering mongrels on the basis of religion is a problem just ignore that and treat them like murdering mongrels instead .The problem with islam is unlike even all the other nutjob religions polluting the world this one is loyal only to itself .Not to family ,friends or country but only to islam all others dont come into it thats why they dont care where they are they are never realy happy some of them .The caliphate is an old idea that last really manifested itself in the battles against the English in the 19th century at battles like Omdurman .But that was put down pretty quickly because since the attack on Vienna centuries ago the muslims have been in decline as regards open combat .The razziah or raid has always suited them better ,they really dont like a stand up fight these days .My Grandfather and countless other men from the west have had to defend these people from the nazis who while professing friendship would have happily finished them all off .My Grandfather like many there in WW2 had nothing but contempt for them ,my Nanna told us kids how after yet another raid on their camp by thieves while they were on excercise they caught up with a bunch of them making off with their gear and used bren gun carriers to catch and 'discourage ' them .These strong young Maori men like my Granddad couldnt understand why they wouldnt defend their own country and were disgusted at the way they treated women and  also animals .
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Nov 2015, 01:01
#24
19 Nov 2015, 01:01#24
The world may not be as we want it, even if we try.....but if we just give up, yield our chance to define things....it's likely to be a world we don't like. Western civilization  seems confused about all this.


 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Nov 2015, 05:23
#25
19 Nov 2015, 05:23#25
 Mozart
Nobody is confused abut this.   I do not disagree with what is in that synopsis  about the background to what ISIS religious base is - but the solution suggested is absolute twaddle - is the man who came up with this surname Chamberlain by any chance?
His suggested solution is absolute BS - ISIS will not die a natural death because of the poor territory they occupy - there will always be sources of money to prevent that.  And the suggestion that they will not sponsor terrorism elsewhere is a joke as well.  A huge percentage of their members are from outside of the ME and that is alone a reason why they will cause terrorist attacks in their original countries where they came from as well.  Ask the Russian about their recent aircraft downing in the Siinai and the roe of the Chesnians in ISIL for example.          
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
19 Nov 2015, 06:37
#26
19 Nov 2015, 06:37#26
 Moz, I don't think that there is any justification for Moslem or any other terrorism and they should be dealt with in the harshest way, but the collateral will be high regardless of tactics. I think more can be done to soften the impact on civilians. You cannot win a war if you don't know who and where the enemy are. Western leadership want to fight this war PC correct and this makes it worse. As long as the West interfere in the ME, there will be sympathisers. Either leave them alone to fck themselves up, close borders and focus inside, or go in and wipe them all out and except the high cost. What they are doing ATM isn't working.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Nov 2015, 07:06
#27
19 Nov 2015, 07:06#27
I agree it's not working ....mostly because there is no definable "it". But having read the article, I have a better sense of just how implacable ISIS is. The writer presents a lot of facts and opinions from people in the movement. For example its explains why Bin Laden's demise may have set back Al-Qaeda but was not debilitating to the jihadist cause. Why negotiating for hostage release is fruitless...why Baghdadi has emerged as such a powerful figure.... why ISIS can't stop...and why it's control of lands, now greater than all of Britain, is so crucial.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
19 Nov 2015, 08:45
#28
19 Nov 2015, 08:45#28
 Its great to see some oaks here getting a glimmerThese remarks by Becs are telling:And something which may interest you, as these atrocities were occurring in France, in Bedford there was a " Quiz a Muslim " evening where British Muslims discussed ISIS and all things regarding them ( the panel included a former Guantanamo Bay inmate who gained £1 million from the Govt ) They decided that they agreed with ISIS, that they wished to create a Caliphate in Britain and they should demand the right to help form the Laws of this country. ( two well known goals of the koran.  A world wode caliphate under sharia law.)Is this unacceptable, do you think and should these people be spoken to about their views ? 9Does any think speaking to these people will help. No it will not because their views are koran based)
Now we are already having to endure Halal slaughter, female genital mutilation cases have increased exponentially and some areas of the country are practising Sharia Law in direct contravention of our own Laws. Another School informed parents that all chicken would be Halal from this week and if you didn't like it, send a packed lunch for your child. This is why people get cross. It is not acceptable and causes friction
ou maaaikie is still to understand what is at stake here.Yes Jihad violence is a threat for sure but the big picture is the fact that the ultimate goal is to subdue the infidels and bring them under sharia law or kill them.The big picture is that the koran itself promotes, nay requires jihad on the infidel.They are in Europe with the precise aim of taking European countries one by one. The muslim apologists speak peace and use our values of freedom and fair play against us very skilfully while jihadist wage war. Confusion reigns but the truth is emmerging. How telling it is that muslim countries do not accept  muslim refugees but Europe and USA must!!Get the muslims out of Europe and the USA and send them back to muslim lands wher the can "enjoy' their religion.If action is not taken Europe will be muslim withina few decades due to immigration a birth ratesShould France become muslim the will control the third biggest nuclear stock pile in the world.Raging atheists trying to equate Islam with Christianity simply have no clue and are deliberately trying to have a go at Christians by equating islam to Christianiity. Christianity does not require Jihad against unbelievers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is a lie of staggering proportions. I challenge anybody to find anything suggesting it does. So far nobody has brought anything that stands up to scrutiny.
It si good to see folk here starting to get it right and understanding the peril we are all in.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Nov 2015, 08:50
#29
19 Nov 2015, 08:50#29
 Mozart
I think about what you wrote and thought back about what the real situation on the ground is.  Saddam Hussein was a Sunni - but regarded by the Sunni's as a enemy of the strict Sunni sects in Islam.
On the day of the US and UK attacks on Iraz started - a French friend of mine said the two countries will regret what they were doing for many decades to come.  He said France has dealt with the Muslims for many years and they know what to expect from getting involved in internal Muslim conflicts.  
It opened the gate for Shi'ite oppression of the Sunni's in Iraq - same as Assad was doing in Syria,   Hussain as a Sunni knew exactly how to deal with the Sunni reactionaries and he allied himself with the Christians and other minorities in Iraq to contain radicalism.   The same applies to Gadaffi in Libya.
Both were dogs and should be regarded with utter disgust - but both kept religious radicalism in their countries in check.   Removing them was what opened the present power keg.   Getting rid of the two created a power vacuum - filled in Iraq by the Shi'ites who started oppressing the Sunni's on the basis that they were supporters of Hussain.
Being oppressed in Iraq - the Sunni's (even the moderate ones) thought the ISIS was a way out of oppression by the Shi'ites and that is why most of them accepted ISIS when they took over part of Iraq - opening the door for them to enter Syria as well.
What appears clear from the article listed by you was the fact that the Americans never knew about the divisions in Islam and the continual wars between factions within that religion and that the writer discovered something new,  He in fact discovered near to zero.  People who have associated with and have a keen knowledge of Muslims would have told him the facts he listed many years ago.              
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
19 Nov 2015, 08:50
#30
19 Nov 2015, 08:50#30
 the nutter war DUD opines - Isis and other fanatics muslim ,christian or whatever
So where are Christians waging jihad against unbelievers warped DUD (And where do you find any scriptural justification for this in Christs teachings?) - your hatred of Christians is leading you into nonsensical fabrications that one would only expect from a lunatic. I sometimes wonder how sane you are as you want religious people to be put down like rabid dogs!
You need help. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Nov 2015, 10:14
#31
19 Nov 2015, 10:14#31
 Beeno
You have me all wrong because you merely do what as recently as 25 years ago in Ireland - a divide between the RC and Protestant church members.  
What I tried to convey is that Muslims also have diverse factions of the religion and those factions hate each other with a vengeance.  To classify all Muslims in the same category is crude and unscientific.   
The main divisions are the Sunnies and the Shi'ites - but in both of those two broad categories are off-shoots as well.   In the faction of the Sunni's you find the Wahabists (the rulers in Saudi Arabia) and more moderate groups in countries like Egypt - where the moderate faction is in charge.   However, the reactionaries and jihadists are also from the Sunni faction.   The fact that hundreds of millions of Muslims are not attached to the Sunni faction - where the real cancer is has gone over the heads of most westerners.
There has for centuries been warfare between the Sunni's and the Shi'ites and those wars was not always continuous - but they were always an ever-present threat.  The factions has killed more of their own members than they ever killed westerners.  There is nothing that will stop that internal warfare and it is best for westerners not to get involved in those.
What to do with the Sunni factions El Qaeda and Isis is a totally different kettle of fish - they should be eliminated and the debate is how.  Most Muslims would welcome it if they are totally destroyed.  Physically that would be possible - bu the religious belie fs of the jihadist adherents you will never change.     
 
      
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
19 Nov 2015, 10:36
#32
19 Nov 2015, 10:36#32
 ISIS practice Wahhabism, Mike. The extreme branch of the faith that is growing at a rate of knots and yes, the one with its root in Saudi Arabia. What is the link there, I wonder ?! Interestingly, they won't take refugees but wanted to fund another 50 Wahhabist Mosques in Germany......they have already funded rather a large number there. Dangerous, I think......
Beeno, I was being slightly sarcastic when I asked if those men should be spoken to at their event on Friday night. You see, if an anti Muslim rally had come to the conclusion they didn't want the Religion in this country, they would have been spoken to and possibly charged with a " hate crime " So you see what I was getting at ? 
As for the US not having the foggiest about the workings of these countries, it is true. They see oil and that is that. And now where are we ? As for creating a power vacuum, of course it did, any rational person with half a brain cell knew it would, as would this ridiculously named " Arab Spring " There is the potential to walk their way across most countries who ousted leaders without much of a fight....although, with the men running away as they do, who is there to fight anyway ?
Are you all aware of events at the Greece/Turkey Football match this week ? The Turkish fans booed throughout the minutes silence for the dead of Paris. So there we have it...
And yes, Wardad, any Religion, even a moderate version, that so subjugates women and treats animals the way it does, is not acceptable, I'm afraid. The former is more distasteful to many, and rightly so. The hypocrisy of the Middle East is yet another sticking point for many, I think...We are supposed to be living in a progressive world, not heading back to the Dark Ages. 

And no, talking to ISIS is not going to work......they don't want words, they want the Caliphate restored and expanded.....with the added extras of wifi, of course !!! 
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
19 Nov 2015, 10:39
#33
19 Nov 2015, 10:39#33
 The US should have left the Sunnis ,Shias and wahabbists to thin each other out and then stepped in to deal with whoever was left standing post 9-11 .And stop treating those vile saudi arsholes like theyre allies . the band of the Welsh  Guards had the right idea when they greeted the saudi arshole king on his official visit to the UK with Darth Vaders theme music.And got away with it !
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
19 Nov 2015, 10:50
#34
19 Nov 2015, 10:50#34
 Glad you enjoyed that  
I read an interesting article about the House of Saud last week. How they are more or less being kept in place there by all of us because the alternative is far, far worse. I am not sure that is necessarily true, but it made for interesting reading.....It said how fearful they are of losing control as they do not know what would happen to them if our favourite Jihadists got hold of them.........
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Nov 2015, 11:25
#35
19 Nov 2015, 11:25#35
 becs
There is a slight difference between Wahabism and ISIS - the latter is more extreme than the former and Wahabism is a religion that use sharia Law as well - but also more modern versions of circumstances - unlike ISIS that preach a return to the times off Mohammed and does not accept anything other than that.
It is of course a problem to have Wahabism mosques as well - because the imams preach the same concepts, but with  different emphasis.   The ill-informed does not take account of anything different in emphasis and that is where the trouble starts .  ISIS will destroy Wahabism the same way they want to destroy other factions. 
I think the fact is the countries of Western Europe should act against the Sunni's in the first instance - but the Western Countries are in fact allies of the Sunni's leaving a serious opening for extremists becoming integral in their own countries.  
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
19 Nov 2015, 12:27
#36
19 Nov 2015, 12:27#36
 Dr Moz what a truly excellent article I am 4/5 through it. It shows real understanding of islam and its dangers. A MUST READ
I am posting some extracts but one really should read this article. I am going to send it out to friends as folk need to understand these thing.

We can gather that their state rejects peace as a matter of principle; that it hungers for genocide; that its religious views make it constitutionally incapable of certain types of change, even if that change might ensure its survival; and that it considers itself a harbinger of—and headline player in—the imminent end of the world.


There is a temptation to rehearse this observation—that jihadists are modern secular people, with modern political concerns, wearing medieval religious disguise—and make it fit the Islamic State. In fact, much of what the group does looks nonsensical except in light of a sincere, carefully considered commitment to returning civilization to a seventh-century legal environment, and ultimately to bringing about the apocalypse.


The most-articulate spokesmen for that position are the Islamic State’s officials and supporters themselves. They refer derisively to “moderns.” In conversation, they insist that they will not—cannot—waver from governing precepts that were embedded in Islam by the Prophet Muhammad and his earliest followers. They often speak in codes and allusions that sound odd or old-fashioned to non-Muslims, but refer to specific traditions and texts of early Islam.

To take one example: In September, Sheikh Abu Muhammad al-Adnani, the Islamic State’s chief spokesman, called on Muslims in Western countries such as France and Canada to find an infidel and “smash his head with a rock,” poison him, run him over with a car, or “destroy his crops.

But Adnani was not merely talking trash. His speech was laced with theological and legal discussion, and his exhortation to attack crops directly echoed orders from Muhammad to leave well water and crops alone—unless the armies of Islam were in a defensive position, in which case Muslims in the lands of kuffar, or infidels, should be unmerciful, and poison away.


The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.


Virtually every major decision and law promulgated by the Islamic State adheres to what it calls, in its press and pronouncements, and on its billboards, license plates, stationery, and coins, “the Prophetic methodology,” which means following the prophecy and example of Muhammad, in punctilious detail


Muslims can reject the Islamic State; nearly all do (DOUBT THAT). But pretending that it isn’t actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it. We’ll need to get acquainted with the Islamic State’s intellectual genealogy if we are to react in a way that will not strengthen it, but instead help it self-immolate in its own excessive zeal.


 In Islam, the practice of takfir, or excommunication, is theologically perilous. “If a man says to his brother, ‘You are an infidel,’?” the Prophet said, “then one of them is right.” If the accuser is wrong, he himself has committed apostasy by making a false accusation. The punishment for apostasy is death. And yet Zarqawi heedlessly expanded the range of behavior that could make Muslims infidels.

Denying the holiness of the Koran or the prophecies of Muhammad is straightforward apostasy. But Zarqawi and the state he spawned take the position that many other acts can remove a Muslim from Islam. These include, in certain cases, selling alcohol or drugs, wearing Western clothes or shaving one’s beard, voting in an election—even for a Muslim candidate—and being lax about calling other people apostates


Following takfiri doctrine, the Islamic State is committed to purifying the world by killing vast numbers of people. The lack of objective reporting from its territory makes the true extent of the slaughter unknowable, 

 

Exempted from automatic execution, it appears, are Christians who do not resist their new government. Baghdadi permits them to live, as long as they pay a special tax, known as the jizya, and acknowledge their subjugation. The Koranic authority for this practice is not in dispute. (THESE GUYS LIKE CHRISTIANS A LOT MORE THAN WARPED dud WHO WOULD HAVE US LL PUT DOWN LIKE RABID DOGS)

 

Their skepticism is comprehensible. In the past, Westerners who accused Muslims of blindly following ancient scriptures came to deserved grief from academics—notably the late Edward Said—who pointed out that calling Muslims “ancient” was usually just another way to denigrate them. Look instead, these scholars urged, to the conditions in which these ideologies arose—the bad governance, the shifting social mores, the humiliation of living in lands valued only for their oil.

Without acknowledgment of these factors, no explanation of the rise of the Islamic State could be complete. But focusing on them to the exclusion of ideology reflects another kind of Western bias: that if religious ideology doesn’t matter much in Washington or Berlin, surely it must be equally irrelevant in Raqqa or Mosul. When a masked executioner says Allahu akbar while beheading an apostate, sometimes he’s doing so for religious reasons.


But Muslims who call the Islamic State un-Islamic are typically, as the Princeton scholar Bernard Haykel, the leading expert on the group’s theology, told me, “embarrassed and politically correct, with a cotton-candy view of their own religion” that neglects “what their religion has historically and legally required.

 

According to Haykel, the ranks of the Islamic State are deeply infused with religious vigor. Koranic quotations are ubiquitous. “Even the foot soldiers spout this stuff constantly,” Haykel said. “They mug for their cameras and repeat their basic doctrines in formulaic fashion, and they do it all the time.” He regards the claim that the Islamic State has distorted the texts of Islam as preposterous, sustainable only through willful ignorance. “People want to absolve Islam,” he said. “It’s this ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ mantra. As if there is such a thing as ‘Islam’! It’s what Muslims do, and how they interpret their texts.” Those texts are shared by all Sunni Muslims, not just the Islamic State. “And these guys have just as much legitimacy as anyone else.”

 

The Koran specifies crucifixion as one of the only punishments permitted for enemies of Islam. The tax on Christians finds clear endorsement in the Surah Al-Tawba, the Koran’s ninth chapter, which instructs Muslims to fight Christians and Jews “until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” The Prophet, whom all Muslims consider exemplary, imposed these rules and owned slave

 

What’s striking about them is not just the literalism, but also the seriousness with which they read these texts,” Haykel said. “There is an assiduous, obsessive seriousness that Muslims don’t normally have.”

 

We will conquer your Rome, break your crosses, and enslave your women,” Adnani, the spokesman, promised in one of his periodic valentines to the West. “If we do not reach that time, then our children and grandchildren will reach it, and they will sell your sons as slaves at the slave market.”


Enslaving the families of the kuffar[infidels] and taking their women as concubines is a firmly established aspect of the Shariah that if one were to deny or mock, he would be denying or mocking the verses of the Koran and the narrations of the Prophet … and thereby apostatizing from Islam.


Peter R. Neumann, a professor at King’s College London, told me that online voices have been essential to spreading propaganda and ensuring that newcomers know what to believe. Online recruitment has also widened the demographics of the jihadist community, by allowing conservative Muslim women—physically isolated in their homes—to reach out to recruiters, radicalize, and arrange passage to Syria.


Bernard Haykel, the foremost secular authority on the Islamic State’s ideology, believes the group is trying to re-create the earliest days of Islam and is faithfully reproducing its norms of war. “There is an assiduous, obsessive seriousness” about the group’s dedication to the text of the Koran, he says. (Peter Murphy)


Their principal goal in meeting me was to explain what the Islamic State stands for, and how its policies reflect God’s law.

Before the caliphate, “maybe 85 percent of the Sharia was absent from our lives,” Choudary told me. “These laws are in abeyance until we have khilafa”—a caliphate—“and now we have one.” Without a caliphate, for example, individual vigilantes are not obliged to amputate the hands of thieves they catch in the act. But create a caliphate, and this law, along with a huge body of other jurisprudence, suddenly awakens. In theory, all Muslims are obliged to immigrate to the territory where the caliph is applying these laws


The caliph is required to implement Sharia. Any deviation will compel those who have pledged allegiance to inform the caliph in private of his error and, in extreme cases, to excommunicate and replace him if he persists. (“I have been plagued with this great matter, plagued with this responsibility, and it is a heavy responsibility,” Baghdadi said in his sermon.) In return, the caliph commands obedience—and those who persist in supporting non-Muslim governments, after being duly warned and educated about their sin, are considered apostates.


The ideological purity of the Islamic State has one compensating virtue: it allows us to predict some of the group’s actions


In London, Choudary and his students provided detailed descriptions of how the Islamic State must conduct its foreign policy, now that it is a caliphate. It has already taken up what Islamic law refers to as “offensive jihad,” the forcible expansion into countries that are ruled by non-Muslims. “Hitherto, we were just defending ourselves,” Choudary said; without a caliphate, offensive jihad is an inapplicable concept. But the waging of war to expand the caliphate is an essential duty of the caliph.

 

Choudary took pains to present the laws of war under which the Islamic State operates as policies of mercy rather than of brutality. He told me the state has an obligation to terrorize its enemies—a holy order to scare the shit out of them with beheadings and crucifixions and enslavement of women and children, because doing so hastens victory and avoids prolonged conflict. (as warped as warped DUD!!!!!!)


Choudary’s colleague Abu Baraa explained that Islamic law permits only temporary peace treaties, lasting no longer than a decade. Similarly, accepting any border is anathema, as stated by the Prophet and echoed in the Islamic State’s propaganda videos. If the caliph consents to a longer-term peace or permanent border, he will be in error. Temporary peace treaties are renewable, but may not be applied to all enemies at once: the caliph must wage jihad at least once a year. He may not rest, or he will fall into a state of sin.

” This form of diplomacy is shirk, or polytheism, he argued, and would be immediate cause to hereticize and replace Baghdadi. Even to hasten the arrival of a caliphate by democratic means—for example by voting for political candidates who favor a caliphate—is shirk.

The United States and its allies have reacted to the Islamic State belatedly and in an apparent daze. The group’s ambitions and rough strategic blueprints were evident in its pronouncements and in social-media chatter as far back as 2011, when it was just one of many terrorist groups in Syria and Iraq and hadn’t yet committed mass atrocities. Adnani, the spokesman, told followers then that the group’s ambition was to “restore the Islamic caliphate,” 

Our goal is to establish an Islamic state that doesn’t recognize borders, on the Prophetic methodology.”


If we had identified the Islamic State’s intentions early, and realized that the vacuum in Syria and Iraq would give it ample space to carry them out, we might, at a minimum, have pushed Iraq to harden its border with Syria and preemptively make deals with its Sunnis. That would at least have avoided the electrifying propaganda effect created by the declaration of a caliphate just after the conquest of Iraq’s third-largest city. Yet, just over a year ago, Obama told The New Yorker that he considered ISIS to be al-Qaeda’s weaker partner. “If a jayvee team puts on Lakers uniforms that doesn’t make them Kobe Bryant,” the president said.(OBAMA IS CONSISTENTLY AND IT LOOKS LIKE DELIBERATELY WRONG ON MUSLIM ISSUES)

One way to un-cast the Islamic State’s spell over its adherents would be to overpower it militarily and occupy the parts of Syria and Iraq now under caliphate rule. Al?Qaeda is ineradicable because it can survive, cockroach-like, by going underground. The Islamic State cannot. If it loses its grip on its territory in Syria and Iraq, it will cease to be a caliphate. Caliphates cannot exist as underground movements, because territorial authority is a requirement: take away its command of territory, and all those oaths of allegiance are no longer binding.

Muslims can say that slavery is not legitimate now, and that crucifixion is wrong at this historical juncture. Many say precisely this. But they cannot condemn slavery or crucifixion outright without contradicting the Koran and the example of the Prophet. “The only principled ground that the Islamic State’s opponents could take is to say that certain core texts and traditional teachings of Islam are no longer valid,” Bernard Haykel says. That really would be an act of apostasy.


READ THE ARTICLE!!!!!!!! MUSLIMS ARE EASILY RADICALISED BY APPEALS TO THE KORAN TEXTS ON JIHAD. 






BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
19 Nov 2015, 12:29
#37
19 Nov 2015, 12:29#37
There will be no peace in Europe whilst there are koran believing people living on its land. They have come to take over.
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
19 Nov 2015, 13:22
#38
19 Nov 2015, 13:22#38
Beeno, you do realise there are many of these groups in Africa as well, don't you ?! Do you not think they should be dealt with ? We have tens of thousands of African migrants from these countries too. 
America is refusing to take the Syrian refugees.....state after state is rejecting them. Obama is not pleased........  
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
19 Nov 2015, 14:52
#39
19 Nov 2015, 14:52#39
The threat of CIA run attacks will be a threat until the US has it's way. Did you know that Nazi Germany began with war on terrorism? Yes. Inducing fear on it's people until they witled away their freedom and became overpowered. The Gistapo were given complete power to detain persons indefinitely for no reason whatsoever. Sort of like how Obama - at the behest of the higher powers who wore him like a glove puppet - signed an executive order to detain US citizens indefinitely, stripping them of their citizenship. The powers are in place. But all this goes over and above the politicians you see on TV. The real movers and shakers are less prominent. The U.N is the ultimate body of power and everything you are seeing now are the machinations for a single global political entity. There must be chaos and the breaking down of everything you know before that can happen. Terrorism is just of the tools being utilized. It's all a sloppily held together lie. A lie people will happily believe because of fear. I advise one to conduct extensive research and it will all become much clearer. Quite a grim future we have on the horizon, and it's bearing down upon us fast.

@Becs: Here's a taster of how the media in the US are instilling fear in Americans.


DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
19 Nov 2015, 15:36
#40
19 Nov 2015, 15:36#40
 Fox, can you please direct me to some of the better sites on the topic (the real puppet masters). Always interesting reads. Love the conspiracy stuff! I also know that there is a lot of misinformation flooding the media for the explicit purpose of hiding inconvenient truths in a sea of BS. Some truths are indeed stranger than fiction. 
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