How good was Kolisi again

Notice how Unterling stamps his post with FACT, as though it were the seal of the ring of a king. Such a pompous human being. More importantly, notice how he doesn't actually ever provide any FACT. He should rather have written STATEMENT, or OPINION. Unterling never ever provides any FACT in any one of his postings. He calls me a "yellow belly", but he point blankly refuses to man up and actually defend his overbearing outbursts. Interesting. 

"So Kolisi supposedly saw us through to the win….he singlehandedly kept us in the game"

Where exactly did you read this in the article that I quoted here?

We can all very clearly see that the article is specifically referring to the loose forward unit as "single-handedly" winning us games, but you are spinning it to try and isolate just Kolisi.

The article I quoted very clearly refers to the "loose forward unit", as winning us games....and not one specific individual like Kolisi, or any other single forward player..... just the unit.

Below is the exact wording used in the article that I referenced, which unequivocally refers to the "loose forward unit" and how they were single-handedly responsible for most of our wins this year... which is 100% true..... it says absolutely nothing remotely close to Kolisi single handedly winning or keeping us in any games... all on his own... as you state above.

"The South African loose forward unit is responsible for most of their wins this year. You could almost say they single-handedly keep them in games. Their back row strength is above any other side in the world"

This is 100% spot on, nothing to dispute here....... but boy you twisted that quickly.

"he was subbed 24 minutes before the end, he had hardly ensured the win.

Even if he was subbed..... are you now saying that nothing any player ever does before he is subbed in a game, must ever be taken into consideration when looking at the final outcome of that specific game...……….bollocks.

This is the kind of tripe Rugby fans are fed and believe all the time"

What is tripe, is the fact that you cannot even acknowledge one single positive comment at all...…. that the writer has to provide about Kolisi in that entire article...….. such is your very obvious dislike for Kolisi.

I have also personally lambasted Kolisi on this forum, for his poor performances before, especially as our Springbok captain..... but I can at least acknowledge anything or something good that he does as well... which you obviously can't.

Moz, I always appreciate your detailed feedback from both the pro and con perspectives, and even Aug for that matter, even if we disagree...….but the fact that you cannot even see any positives at all about Kolisi…... from that entire article, which provided very detailed examples of just how well Kolisi personally played.... with very clear descriptions, images and even videos of what Kolisi did well..... just shows that Dave is actually spot on with what he has been saying for a while now.... about how you and Aug just hate on the guy

All good... clear as mud now

"So many different neutral people, from various countries, that actually do this professionally for a living, can't get it wrong"

"So many dif ferent neutral people, from various countries"

Very true.. fair correction

It all comes down to this: Where's the production, and where are the game-changing contributions. You can quote any source you want, but this is the beginning and end of the matter. I know what Kolisi has done, and I know how the Boks use him. It all comes from actually studying the film. That's how you know a player's worth. Until you know that, you don't know anything, at least not for certain. I keep asking where these indispensable contributions are, and nobody can tell me. The very latest being "good carries" and "waxing lyrical". Well, it doesn't show up on film. 

Well, just these points below from the article should answer your question about production....or game changing contributions....

The Springbok captain has won 10 turnovers this year as part of a Springboks back row unit that has collectively nabbed 29."

Or here...…

"Given where those turnovers have taken place and the tackles Kolisi has made, he has saved his side anywhere between 5-10 points per game, which, when you look at how South Africa wins games, has been absolutely vital"

Here....

"These snapshots highlight how, in a losing side, Kolisi was one of the best players on the pitch by helping keep his team in the contest. In the first half, he affected four turnovers, three of which were won inside or around his own team’s 22"

Here....

"In another second phase carry around the corner in this attacking opportunity early in the first half, Welsh prop Rhys Carre was manhandled by Kolisi and driven sideways into the arms of Smith"

"Smith got the steal, but it was the work of Kolisi that gave his fellow loose forward an easy chance for a pilfer. Wales came away from the 22 visit with zero points, which happened on multiple occasions"

Here.....

"But it’s this play that sums up why Kolisi needed to be nominated as the World Player of the Year.

Without his effort to scramble, Rees-Zammit would have scored after cutting inside Makazole Mapimpi (11), plain and simple.

Herschel Jantjies wouldn’t have stopped the Welsh winger from there, but Kolisi made the save in a match where he won two ruck turnovers – including a critical one right on halftime that led to a penalty goal to close the gap to 12-9 – along with 11 tackles."

Now here's the thing..... I am not even saying that Kolisi deserves or should be nominated or get included in any way at all, in this world player competition , because if I had to make that call on who definitely does belong there, I would no doubt have punted Eben, in a very big way..... in fact it is shameful that he is not nominated...… thank you Rassie.

And let's not say that these sports journalists I quote don't know their stuff, because I reckon most of them do.... and I could just respond that the same journalists that you guys always quote are of the same calibre .... it's swings and roundabouts

My whole point here.... is your complete lack of impartiality when it comes to certain players.... like Kolisi….

Okay DA perhaps my language was a little incendiary, I apologize. So let me address your points and the whole Kolisi issue.

Firstly the ‘spin’ starts with the author. I only quoted him. His main point is Kolisi should get the World Player of the Year award. He  uses the argument that our loosies were dominant and crucial to deciding close tests. 

That’s a spurious argument…the players deciding the close tests were those on the field when they were decided. Kolisi was never on the field when that happened. Secondly using Kolisi and the loose trio interchangeably to give Kolisi the attributes of the trio, is dishonest. This is about individual contribution.

And any case he is wrong about the loose trio. We at best broke even at loose forward in big games. Our most improved area this year was the breakdown. We have been massive. But not because of the loosies, because Vermeulen, Marx, Kitshoff, Nche, Am, Dud Allende, Koch and Etzebeth have all been predatory at the breakdown. 

Kolisi himself is probably more involved, but it’s still not his thing. There were occasions even in the Scottish match where he was ideally positioned to make a turnover and he never committed.

And therein lies the dilemma. Given his physique he should be a natural stealer not a hard yards ball carrier…..a 6 not a 7 in. Bok numbers. But he isn’t.

In fact Kolisi has no programmed role. Vermeulen takes kickoffs and regularly brings the ball back 5 to 10 metres. He takes lineout ball, He is our main man on the deck. He cover defends.

What does Kolisi do in a programmed sense. I’m not speaking about reaction plays like the Henson rip…..I’m talking about programmed activities. I see none…..he tackles a bit, runs a bit, sometimes mauls a bit.

For the Stormers a few years back he was a very effective runner in space, bouncing off tacklers and offloading. He has stopped offloading which takes away his strongest attribute. Now he is just a small guy running at half pace. The team tactics don’t suit him.

So I see this as a political article. Just another attempt to score Brownie points. As fans we want to see the best rugby player on the planet, regardless of team, color or any other attribute getting this award. Kolisi isn’t even in the top 50.

I can see why he is in the Bok team, there is a lot of pressure on SA Rugby. I don’t think it’s a disaster provided Vermeulen is on the park to fill in the gaps. And the whole reffing thing seems to have energized him for the moment.

But whatever demotivated him in the past is likely to rear it’s head again. 

"Well that is just my opinion"

Fair points that I don't disagree with Mpower…..

Good points Moz

As I mentioned earlier as well, I also don't necessarily agree that Kolisi should be in the mix for the world player of the year, I would certainly push for Eben, but I do recognize that Kolisi has made some big impacts on some games.