MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Apr 2019, 00:05#81
One of your best mates is gay....Dave? Gosh that makes you the expert then. There is no scientific consensus other than genes and environmental factors, some occurring before birth, have a role.
For some there is no choice.....for many they could go either way and live happy lives.
The fact that your friend, much like you, is angry much of the time isn't proof of anything....except that he is defensive about his choice. Although in today's world there seems to be little reason
Other than obvious biggots like Peeper who calls me "moffie".....the days of the homophobe are over.
And to answer your question about older brothers increasing the probability of homosexuality.....the theory is the chemistry of the mother's body is the trigger mechanism. Read about it....try not to be so bombastically ignorant.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
11 Apr 2019, 00:34#82
Oh what utter ignorant garbage and what an insult to my mate. So he is defensive about his choice to be gay despite having said that had he had the choice he would not have chosen to be gay.
I mistakenly took you for an informed man but clearly you have no idea and clearly you have no affiliation with anyone that is gay.
And no one of my best mates is not the only gay person I know, I have both family and many gay friends and not a single one of them puts their sexuality down to choice.
I’m not sure why it’s even up for debate, being gay is not a choice thing just like being left or right handed is not a choice thing.
It’s pretty obvious sexuality is not something that can be manipulated into place. It comes as naturally as me throwing with my right hand.
Given the prejudices faced out there why the hell would anyone choose to be gay? It defies logic.
Chemistry in the mother is different to older brothers creating an environment which leads to the youngest choosing to be gay - which is how I interpreted your original take.
You clearly have no personal experience with gay people for if you did you would not be relying on the ignorant literature you bang on about.
It’s no different to commenting on a game you have not seen. My advice to you is go ask a number of gay people if their sexuality was a choice. Go watch the game instead of quoting the stats
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Apr 2019, 01:48#83
Maybe this will help you Dave......
'Sexual orientation researcher and study author Anthony Bogaert, at Brock University in Canada, studied 944 heterosexual and homosexual men in Canada.
His research suggests that, in at least some cases, homosexuality is biological and may account for about one of every 7 gay men in North America.
This older brother effect "does not explain everyone, but this is definitely a part of it," said Sven Bocklandt, a researcher at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA.
The order in which the sons are born to the same mother, called the fraternal birth order, seems to be the source of the biological factor.
The leading biological theory is the maternal immunization hypothesis, which suggests that something changes with each son a mother conceives.
When a mother gives birth to her first son, she may create antibodies in response to the foreign male proteins of her baby. These antibodies can increase in the mother with each successive male baby, which may affect her son's brain, hormones, and sexual orientation.'
......
And so the third son is much more likely to be homosexual than the first. Helpful?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Apr 2019, 02:08#84
And here's another part of your education:
'The study by Dr Tuck C. Ngun and his team at the University of California found that an algorithm using epigenetic information from a mere nine regions of the human genome can predict the sexual orientation of males with up to 70 percent accuracy.
This suggests that environmental factors that switch genes on and off and affect how cells read genes may have a significant influence on human sexuality, both heterosexual and homosexual.
These environmental influences have not been identified but they may include hormones, chemical exposure, stress, diet, exercise, childhood interactions, peer pressure and social values. Nor is it clear whether these factors only have an impact pre-birth and in early childhood or whether they may also affect adults in later life.
The degree of environmental influence is still unclear. We already have plenty of previous research that points to likely significant biological drivers of sexual orientation. This includes ‘gay gene’ studies that have identified the Xq28 marker on the X chromosome as possibly associated with homosexuality; plus evidence of differences in the amygdala, hypothalamus and symmetry of the brains of gay and straight men.
Other research, which also indicates a genetic component to sexual orientation, has found that among identical twins where one brother is gay the likelihood of the other brother also being gay is much greater than the incidence of homosexuality in the general population (20-50% in identical twins, as opposed to 2-10% among the wider male population). But the fact that there is not a 100% concordance of gayness among identical twins suggests that factors other than genes play a role.
While all these studies have been disputed to varying degrees by fellow scientists – as no doubt will Dr Ngun’s research – the preponderance of scientific evidence nevertheless does point to biological factors as probably being prime (but not exclusive and total) influences on sexual orientation.
There are, of course, still loose ends to Dr Ngun’s research and to all similar scientific studies. None of them identify a single cause of sexual orientation and none can explain everyone’s sexuality. This is because it seems that something as complex and varied as sexual orientation doesn’t have a sole determinant. It is likely to be multi-causal, including to some degree (even if minor) cultural factors, such as social mores and expectations.
There is a major problem with any theories that posit the biological or environmental programming of sexual orientation from pre-birth or in the years after birth. If heterosexuality and homosexuality are determined and fixed by early childhood – and therefore mutually exclusive and unchangeable – how do we explain bisexuality or people who, suddenly in mid-life, switch from heterosexuality to homosexuality (or vice versa)? We can’t.
The Kinsey researchers famously reported the case of a happily married young woman who, ten years into her marriage, unexpectedly fell in love with a female friend. Divorcing her husband, she set up house with this woman. Many years later, despite a fulfilling on-going lesbian relationship, she had an equally satisfying affair with a man. Examples of sexual flexibility, like that of this woman, don’t square with theories of rigid erotic predestination. They tend to support the thesis that environmental factors may affect sexual orientation.
If gayness was only explainable in biological terms we would expect it to appear in the same proportions, and in similar forms, in all cultures and all epochs. As the anthropologists Clellan Ford and Frank Beach demonstrated in Patterns Of Sexual Behaviour (1965), far from being cross-culturally uniform and stable, both the incidence and specific expressions of same-sex desire vary vastly between different societies. This variation gives credibility to the role of environmental factors suggested by Dr Ngun’s research.'
.......
I pared the article down to the important bits. So there you have it Dave, post and pre birth environmental factors switch on and off the genes.....and case studies suggest gay people sometimes have a choice.....they aren't always programmed automatons
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Apr 2019, 05:22#85
And here's the clincher.....Men identifying as Gay or Transgender by European country:
United Kingdom 6.9%
Germany 6.5%
Spain 6.7%
Austria 5.6%
France 4.0%
Italy 3.7%
Netherlands 2.5%
Obviously these countries aren't reflecting genetic differences, the number variances are too big....they are reflecting environmental differences.....like the practices in English Boarding schools and perhaps their attitudes towards the question.
Once again, we don't know all the answers. Genetics play a big role, but to suggest that environment and influence play no role seems naive. There may be some Gay men that are programmed at birth, but others who are influenced. And the case for female's being influenced is even stronger.
11 Apr 2019, 07:56#87
I agree with Draad.
Hell is not a place of fiery torment and Lucifer will not be made king of that realm.
He will be suffering in a very special way himself in the Lake of Fire and will have no time to torment you ... neither will his demon horde. There is no one waiting for you in hell.
Jesus said that we should fear Him who can separate the spirit from the soul ... He also spoke often of being cast out into the darkness where there'll be a weeping and a gnashing of teeth ... forever.
We are a living soul ... residing in a body of flesh ... and our spirit is the life force that came from God which drives it all. We are three in one.
Hell is when your soul is torn from your spirit and cursed to wander in the dark alone ... like solitary confinement ... separated from everything and everyone, including God ... alone ... forever.
Your spirit which came from God (now tainted by your sin) will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
There is only one unforgivable sin.
The Catholic church is about as far away from God as it can get.
Mother Mary is a key figure in their faith and men call upon her as though she's a goddess with power. She is no more a deity than I am.
Man has no authority to forgive those who sin against God. I can forgive you for sinning against me ... and that's where it ends. You have to have a repentant heart to receive forgiveness from Christ ... and only He can read your heart. No amount of money will buy you forgiveness.
They are more concerned with their rituals than they are with the things of God.
They are a perversion.
BObobbok...
Captain10,129 posts
BObobbok...Captain10,129 posts
11 Apr 2019, 08:39#89
Why would an atheist get upset about being told that he will go to a place that he knows doesn't exist ?
11 Apr 2019, 08:50#91
What you are attracted to is not a decision. You find attractive what you find attractive. Each of the gay bashers here has a specific type of woman that they find attractive. As do I. But I am pretty sure I speak for most when I say that if a fat swamp donkey of a woman with warts and poor personal hygiene where to proposition me, no matter how much of a straight heterosexual man I am, I would not find her attractive. Now imagine for a moment, being a man, that saw all woman that way. Difficult as that may be try to imagine it. Because that is what it is like for a gay man. He sees a woman, beautiful or otherwise, as we straight men see another man. Just a person. Sure, we can discern an ugly man from a good looking one, but we will never be attracted to another man.
I do strongly believe there is a link between abuse and confusion around sexuality. But there is also a genetic element which will determine sexual preference regardless of external factors. And it is quite apparent to me that sexuality exists on a scale of some sort. I find the idea of kissing a man utterly repulsive, never mind any other sexual act, but that is me. I am on that side of the scale. Gay is the other side of the scale, and in between are varying levels of preference for one or the other or both.
The bottom line is, why do you care anyway, if another man prefers the chocolate starfish of a man to the holiest of holies (thanks Pulp Fiction) of a woman, how does it impact your life? Even from a purely Christian point of view, that judgement is not for you to make. So for those calling for gays to be condemned to hell, according to the bible, you will be there to welcome them, because Mathew 7 says "Do not judge, or you will be judged".
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
11 Apr 2019, 09:24#95
Spot on Crusader and Blue it’s so bloody obvious that being gay is natural and has nothing to do with choice or influences around you. You can’t mould your sexuality it’s a birth right.
If it was a choice no one would be sadistic enough to choose being gay given the prejudices attached.
Moz your stats are a load of crap how the hell do they measure those stats accurately?
There is no stat out there that confirms I am heterosexual for instance, no box to tick. There are far too many variables to ever get an accurate stat on percentage gay people per country. For a start many remain silent regarding their sexual preference.
11 Apr 2019, 09:40#102
Hahahaha @ Admin! If only.
sharkbok
Captain23,251 posts
sharkbokCaptain23,251 posts
11 Apr 2019, 12:03#106
Folau can celebrate with Abraham and Abrahams half-sister who is also called Abraham and who also happens to be his wife and niece. The forefathers of the half-wits like Beeno and CleanCutt.
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
11 Apr 2019, 13:03#109
This whole Folau thing is a blow to the Wallabies, a blow to the Waratahs and a blow to the rugby public in general who enjoy watching players of Folau's calibre . . . but I can think of at least one person who will be smiling . . . Tom Banks of the Brumbies who must now surely be the favourite to wear the Wallaby #15 jersey at the World Cup.
Dane Haylett-Petty and Kurtley Beale might have something to say about that but Haylett-Petty is under an injury cloud and his last test was a disaster while Beale is the likely starting #12 for the Wallabies . . . but that may change if the Waratahs use Beale as Folau's replacement.
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
11 Apr 2019, 13:40#111
CC has "nailed" the pervs?
Hope Klown didn't get too much poo on his piepie!
11 Apr 2019, 13:58#113
The hardliners here must live a terrible life. Everywhere they go they must hate everyone. Gays, people of other colours, people of different religions...hell even Christians of the different denominations. Leaving the house must be a nightmare. Live and let live people. I'll laugh at the goth with studs and silly boots and piercings in stupid places, or the Muslim woman covered head to toe when its 35 degrees, but you know what, its really their business what they do, or wear or believe. Try and force that way of life on me, and there'll be some proper resistence, but outside that, who really gives a rat s arse?
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
11 Apr 2019, 14:37#115
Be honest now . . . how many of you are relieved that Folau didn't include masturbators among the groups of people going to hell?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Apr 2019, 15:06#117
Well there you have a typical modern debate.....not one person persuaded from his orginal views. We really aren't creatures of logic, emotion trumps all. Facts are only acceptable if they conform.
For all our scientific advances we still view the things that are important to us through a primitive brain.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
11 Apr 2019, 15:26#119
Well I don't have one either denny. I know many gay people, particularly in the art world, but I can't say I fully understand their conflict.
I did the standard internet search and there have been a great many studies which I find somewhat persuasive.
Good luck to Dave's friend and family members who are gay.....things are easier, but that life is still a challenge.
