Keo on Esterhozen:

At international level…just those few. Or you could save your fingers and cut and paste.

1005 at international level

5. Ngani Laumape (New Zealand)

From: No.8 (youth / early NPC)

To: Inside Centre (12)

International level: All Blacks

1. Played No.8 at Wesley College and early provincial rugby
2. Converted to midfield via rugby league
3. Became an All Blacks Test centre (2017–2018)

This one does qualify cleanly.

A genuine loose-forward ? Test-centre pathway.

6. Jonah Lomu — borderline but famous

From: Blindside flanker (school & early NPC)

To: Wing

International level: All Blacks

1. Played flanker at Wesley College
2. Moved wide professionally
3. Occasionally defended in midfield channels

Why he’s relevant:

Shows the same physical logic behind forward ? backline conversions.

Piss poor attempt Moz we need an example of a professional player moving from playing as a forward to playing centre which is what Roos would be doing if Moses was a rugby coach

Ngani Laumape didn’t technically convert from a loose-forward to a centre at the professional level — he originally played rugby union as a schoolboy, then switched to rugby league with the New Zealand Warriors (playing in the backs including centre/wing) before returning to rugby union in 2015 and developing straight into a centre.

Here’s the timeline:

Before 2012: Laumape played union at Palmerston North Boys’ High School

1. (where players often cover forward positions at school, including loose forward).
2. 2012–2015: He switched to rugby league with the Warriors, playing primarily as a back (centre/wing) through his early 20s.
3. July 2015: At age 22, he signed to return to rugby union with Manawatu and the Hurricanes.
4. 2016: In his first Super Rugby season (aged 22–23), he debuted at inside centre for the Hurricanes and established himself there.

So while he might have played forward at school, his professional conversion into a union centre happened when he returned from league to union at about 22 years old.

As for Lomu that’s not worth a response as we all know he was a wing not a centre

A little education for the rugby uneducated

It cuts right to the difference between power and midfield intelligence.

A professional loose-forward can look like a natural 12 on paper (size, strength, work-rate), but don’t make good inside centres for a few key reasons:

1. Time & Space Shock

At 12, everything happens faster and wider.

1. As a loose-forward, you’re usually operating in traffic, with time to scan after the carry.
2. At inside centre, you often get half a second to:
3. catch ? read ? pass/kick/run
4. while defenders are flying up from depth.

Many forwards simply aren’t wired for that decision speed under width pressure.

2. Passing Under Stress

Loose-forwards pass after contact.

Inside centres pass before contact, often flat or behind the gain line.

1. That requires:
2. soft hands at pace
3. accuracy over 10–20m
4. timing runners rather than reacting to collisions

A forward who can shovel a ball isn’t the same as one who can run a backline.

3. Defensive Reading vs Defensive Effort

This is a big one.

1. Loose-forwards defend with work-rate and collision dominance.
2. Inside centres defend with anticipation:
3. reading shapes
4. knowing when not to bite
5. making the right tackle, not the hardest one

Plenty of forwards over-chase or drift late — and at 12, that’s fatal.

4. Kicking & Exit IQ

Modern 12s aren’t just crash merchants.

They’re often:

1. secondary playmakers
2. exit kickers
3. pressure relievers

Most professional loose-forwards simply haven’t spent 10+ years developing that toolkit.

5. Running Lines: Subtlety Over Force

Forwards run straight and hard.

Great inside centres run:

1. unders lines
2. overs lines
3. decoy lines
4. delayed lines

It’s choreography, not blunt force — and it takes years of repetition.

6. Conditioning Is Different

A loose-forward’s work is repeat collisions + short efforts.

A 12 needs:

1. repeated high-speed accelerations
2. lateral movement
3. defensive reads in space

Many forwards gas in the wrong moments or lose sharpness late.

Playing centre is craft, not just attributes.

The big separator is nuance, and nuance only comes from years of repetition until it becomes muscle memory. You don’t think your way through midfield — you feel it.

A few examples of those nuances that take forever to internalise:

1. Body shape at the line:
2. Slightly open hips vs square can change whether you’ve created a 2-on-1 or killed it. That adjustment happens subconsciously in elite centres.

1. When not to take contact:
2. This is huge. Great centres know when to float, hold, or tip — not every carry is about winning the collision. Forwards are trained the opposite way.

1. Defensive spacing memory:
2. The best 12s don’t just tackle well — they remember patterns:
3. “Last time they ran this shape, the tip-on came late”
4. That recognition lives in muscle memory, not analysis.

1. Timing runners without looking:
2. Elite centres pass to where a winger will be, not where he is. That only comes after thousands of reps with backline shapes.

1. Micro-adjustments at speed:
2. One extra stride, a half-step delay, a subtle deceleration — those tiny movements are learned habits, not instincts.

This is why:

1. You can’t fast-track a professional forward into centre.
2. Late conversions almost always look robotic.
3. The truly great centres make it look effortless — because they’re not thinking anymore.

It also explains why you rate attacking IQ so highly (and rightly so): attack is where individual memory and feel matter most, while defence can be system-supported.

In short:

Centre is a language.

If you don’t grow up speaking it, you’ll always have an accent.

Well two obvious rebuttals.

Firstly with no examples of a test loosie being tried at test center, this:

A professional loose-forward can look like a natural 12 on paper (size, strength, work-rate), but don’t make good inside centres for a few key reasons:

…..is pure speculation, in fact it is misleading.

Secondly Dud Allende for many years has been your gold standard at 12, but does this sound like Dud:

Inside centres pass before contact, often flat or behind the gain line.

1. That requires:
2. soft hands at pace
3. accuracy over 10–20m
4. timing runners rather than reacting to collisions

…..

Obvioudly not. So the description of inside center play not only excludes forwards, but also excludes your favorite inside center.

Let's summarise Dawid's arguments...

1) Centres need great passing ability - though DDA has, over his entire international career, made barely a handful of passes that put anyone into space for a score. Dave's support for DDA is in direct contrast with what he claims a 12 needs at test level. It couldn't be more glaringly obvious.

2) Because I say so - as usual

3) Hey ChatGPT, please make this argument for me - because monkey boy doesn't realise that Chat will argue in any direction you ask it to.

4) Appeal to tradition - because even the worst lawyer on earth would understand why logical fallacies are not used by intelligent people.

Conclusion;

Dave actually has no reasonable or intelligent argument to offer.

It's the same old same old, "Because I is saying so".

This is very very easy, Dave.

ALL, literally ALL...every single one of the Bok tries are on YouTube. Simply go and find the tries DDA has made with his passing.

Over his close to 100 caps you might find 2 or 3 examples.

So, without simply asking us to rely on your "opinion"...make an actual argument.

And this is why you get angry and start the insults. Like a pigheaded brat, you run out of intelligent things to say and then revert to stupid insults to shut down the conversation. It's your "break glass in emergency"

You've previously told us that you think Roos is the best 8 in SA. And in the same breath you said he is "far better" that Wiese because he is such an excellent linking 8...which means he has good hands and passes very well. So you already admit that Roos is a very good passer. Such a good passer that you use that as an argument to say Roos a better player than Wiese who was probably our most influential forward, in the best pack on earth, this year.

A boring, unintelligent mongrel with an inflated opinion of himself.

Well Moz we all know that you are completely wrong about DA so your rebuttal counts for fuck all

You are not going to find an example of a pro player moving from looseforward to inside centre as no coach is stupid enough to believe a loosie has the skill set acquired over time to make an inside centre. They understand this - which is not what we can say about you and Buttplug surprise, surprise

There are almost as few examples of that as there are of DDA using "soft" hands and excellent passing skills to put somebody in space...

There is no pass for stupidity

So how many examples do we have of established international centers playing at flank. One….Esterhozen….because Jake mooted the idea years ago and Geraasmus was willing to be unconventional, one of the things I like about him.

So I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see the double hybrid move in a test this year, with Esterhozen switching to flank and Roos shifting to replace him at center. While Willemse continues to play 15 where he is WC final proved.

What part of moving from inside centre to flank if you are built like AE is pretty straightforward given it’s a far easier position to play do you not comprehend?

Jake was stupid enough to not rate AE as a 12 and wanted to move him to flank. Stupid as ever

The idea of Roos playing 12 has never been suggested other than by you clowns on here so why do you think that is going to happen

Willemse will be at 12 with Fassi at 15. Such an obvious call but only a rugby noob would not get that

.

Jeez there I was thinking the Deysel twins were going to excel Stepfontein at 12. ROFL!

Yet another battle lost I see - such easy pickings

Remember when Dave punted Esterhuizen at 13!

LOL

"de Allende is the best 12 in the game and the Bok side is used to him there so he stays at 12 it’s a no brainer

We need to replace Am at 13 - the candidates are Kriel, Esterhuizen, Willemse and Moodie

Kriel would be solid, Esterhuizen would add physical clout and the offload. Willemse would attack space but won’t be tried there. Moodie played 13 all through his school career but equally will not be tried there"

Turns out Moodie was more than tried there and Esterhuizen hasn't started a single game at 13.

Rugby noob indeed.

LMAO

Says the scumbag that wants Roos at 12

Stick to domino’s scumbag

Yes Dave, I would like to see Roos at 12.

But notice how that's different to "Roos will play at 12"

Roos for 12 is and always has been just an idea and meant for conversation on the basis of his attributes.

Now let's discuss how Moodie "won't be tried" at 13 yet turned out becoming the incumbent.

LMAO

What date did I post that - no doubt some time back when he first started.

So I was suggesting Moodie as an option at 13 but said he would not be tried there - which no doubt was the case at the time

You are such easy pickings scumbag - try harder you desperate thing

Suggesting Roos at 12 smacks of utter rugby ignorance

No surprise there, is there?

Lol "He won't be tried there"

Great call, Dawie.

Answer the question you fucking loser

okay..

"No surprise there, is there?"

Indeed, no surprises at all, you make the worst calls on this board and are the most vocal about them.

Moodie "won't be tried there" hahahaha

Answer the question you worthless prick

Too shit scared to get exposed for the umpteenth time?

Lol, ou Dawie...too dumb to know how to use google.

>copy>paste>click enter>see results

But this is how dumb you really are. Obviously it was when he first started...because else why would you say "He won't be tried there"...cos you won't say that if had already played at 13.

So it was obviously some time after his inclusion in the squad and before he actually played at 13...and we know he played at 13 soon after getting into the squad.

You demand an answer to a question that you're asking which you're too thick to realise is rhetorical and to which the answer is pretty obvious.

And all of that is to distract from yet another of your terrible calls in saying Moodie won't be tried at 13 hahaha

Fuck me you are beyond stupid

Yes it’s obvious I made that call at the start of his career you plank

I mentioned him as an option at 13 because he had played there at school

I said he would not be tried at 13 at that point of his career you dunce

My comment had nothing to do with later on in his career you fucking idiot

Do you have a brain?

Nonsensical k@k...f@ck!

"I said he would not be tried at 13 at that point of his career you dunce"

...you're right!

I mean, it was a whole two months later he got selected at 13 and has played there ever since.

Excellent call, Dawie

LOL

"Posted by: Saffolk (30709 posts)

Aug 08, 2023, 17:29

de Allende is the best 12 in the game and the Bok side is used to him there so he stays at 12 it’s a no brainer

We need to replace Am at 13 - the candidates are Kriel, Esterhuizen, Willemse and Moodie

Kriel would be solid, Esterhuizen would add physical clout and the offload. Willemse would attack space but won’t be tried there. Moodie played 13 all through his school career but equally will not be tried there

I’d go de Allende at 12 with Esterhuizen at 13 with Kriel and Willemse covering off the bench"

Wait for it...

Wait foooooor iiiiiiiit....

Waaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiit......

"Canan Moodie first played No. 13 (outside centre) for the Springboks on 25 August 2023, against New Zealand at Twickenham (RWC warm-up). "

Ouch

"My comment had nothing to do with later on in his career you fucking idiot"

One can only laugh at the unbridled confidence with which he made the above statement.

And one can only speculate as to the amount of vulgarity and changing of the subject that will now occur...but I assume there will be large volumes of both.

"Easy pickings" indeed.

Wow your stupidity knows no bounds

We know I have always advocated Moodie at 13 from day one right?

At the time I was looking for options at 13 to replace Am, I included Moodie as one of those options but said I did not think Rassie would try him there, which was the case at that time.

The fact that Rassie obliged 2 months later is testament to how astute Rassie is and aligned with my call. The fact that Rassie made that call far sooner than I anticipated is a fucking bonus

Now go take your pills Floater and try wake up. You are getting all excited over nothing

Had I said Moodie would NEVER be tried at 13, you might have had something to wet yourself over

Floater you really are one pathetic twat

Hey DA trust you to fuck it up and miss the obvious as well - as fucking sad as Floater is

You need to grow up, keyboard warrior, because what you said was very clear.

First, you claimed you made that call “at the start of his career”…then when it became obvious it wasn’t the start because he’d already played a good few games on the wing, you switched to “I meant at that point in his career.”

Bwhahaha and when that still didn’t save you because it was only weeks later that he was picked at 13, you shifted again to “actually it proves I was right.”

Moving the goalposts every time the facts catch up with you. The reality is simple, you made a call, it turned out wrong, and instead of owning it like an adult you hide behind insults and rewrite what you meant after the fact. Perhaps we should rename you dishonest Dawie?

You're a gutless little fat man with bitchtits pretending to be a big boy.

But sure, go and make us another list of 86 players that should all be in the Bok squad hahahaha!!!!

Dishonest Dawie

Defos a D-cup...

Hey DA trust you to fuck it up and miss the obvious as well

LOL, you are trying so hard to backtrack on this ..... it's fucking hilarious

Your story changes every single time the facts come out and bite you on your little dick

Just man up for once in your sad and pathetic existence and just say that you got it wrong

Ok brain box you explain to me how I am backtracking you fucking idiot?

I know Floater is too fucking stupid to the point of being extremely annoying but let’s have your 2 cents worth to establish just how fucking stupid you are to

Now be a gent and explain to me where I have backtracked and try not lie about it like Floater has

Fucking idiots the pair of you

"Just man up for once..."

Fish can't climb trees, DA.

Floater is your name DA? Who was talking to you huh?