Keo on Esterhozen:

Stormers got totally outplayed. I think they went into the match too complacent and paid dearly...let's see how it goes in Durban over the weekend.

"Saffex, it's funny how ever since you and I expressed our appreciation for DW's great skills, suddenly he's very slow, he can't beat a tackle, can't bust a tackle, can't defend and can't influence game"

Come on now, Dawie, tell RooiNuts how you think Willemse is too slow for 15...

Ooooh Rooi how dare you imply Willemse is fast you naughty boy

Saffex, it's funny how ever since you and I expressed our appreciation for DW's great skills, suddenly he's very slow, he can't beat a tackle, can't bust a tackle, can't defend and can't influence games.

Actually it’s Saffex who said Willemse isn’t fast enough for 15, I can’t recall any other poster thinking he isn’t fast enough.

And again, nobody said he can’t beat a tackle. The question is can he regularly break tackles….break vs beat, do you see the difference? In space Willemse has a lethal step….in the tight situations of test 12, the powerhouses dominate. That’s what Dave always said to justify the Tractor.

He can’t influence games….again a misrepresentation. He clearly can do that at 15, there is simply no evidence of him doing that at 12 yet. And no the 2 tries he scored on Saturday belong to Sacha.

He can’t tackle….again not a conclusion more of a question mark. So far in the URC he has a 68% tackle success rate at 12. Not a red flag yet, but certainly something worth watching.

Your pathetic post is so typical of the kill the discussion style. It’s a legitimate question as to who our next 12 should be. Willemse has open field potential and age on his side. Esterhozen has power and a long track record at 12 on his side. Debate like an adult and stop lying about what people have said.

Willemse with his step is able to beat defenders in traffic. Will he always beat defenders in traffic? No he won’t, that’s not the reality of the game. But he is equipped to do so, unlike other 12’s in the game, which is what sets him apart. If he achieves the beat in traffic 20% of the time, that’s a win for him.

Having bulked up to a respectable 100kg+, he is also physically equipped to impose himself physically. He has always been a powerful player who has always thrown his body into collisions

He is perfectly suited to 12 given his ability to beat defenders in traffic, his ability to attack space and his ability to impose himself physically

You need out and out pace as a fullback as part of your armoury. Willemse having bulked up, no longer has that out and out pace, which is why 15 is not his best position

But what’s blatantly obvious is that we need to move on from DA at 12, given he is 33/34, that option is certainly not AE given he is a year or so younger - that selection would be totally pointless.

We have a class act in Fassi as our option at 15 and we need a new 12, Willemse is a wonderful talent with plenty of test experience and is best suited to 12 so it’s so damn obvious that he should be our starting 12 for years to come.

How can anyone be stupid enough to suggest starting AE at 12 as a 32 year old - how fucking short sighted is that and it would effectively mean Rassie would be settling on his second choice 12 in AE, given AE has always been DA’s understudy. It’s simply not going to happen especially considering the new hybrid role AE is playing. He is destined to continue operating off the bench for the Boks until his time is up.

What we need to do is find a backup for Fassi at 15 - for me the options are Jordan Hendrikse and Horn

We need to settle on a new 13 to replace Jessie and Am - the obvious candidates are Moodie, JJ and Heno v Wyk. I would have initially included Hooker as an option but he is yet to have a good game at 13 but he has time on his side

We need to find a back up to Willemse at 12, the obvious option here is Hooker, followed by David Kriel and Bronson Mills

On current form, and if Willemse won't play at 15, then Horn is the obvious choice. Easily the form 15 right now. Cos it's not Galant or Willie and Fassi is nowhere near his best...not even close. If Fassi gets back where he was then he's the clear choice.

As long as there is no talk, EVER, about shifting Sacha to 15 in order to accommodate Manie because the very thought of that annoys me beyond compare.

Jordan Hendrikse still has the biggest out-of-hand boot in SA and is a big unit. But I prefer him as Sacha's understudy purely on the basis of being able to play more of a more direct and kicking game. He provides a contrast that Manie doesn't.

And let's not forget that Hooker has a lot of the qualities one looks for in a 15. Game reading, calmness, high ball skills, pace, size.

...in fact, if I had to pick a player to catch a high ball in his 22 and under pressure, for my life, I'm probably picking Hooker.

Plum?!

Did you not watch Fassi over the weekend. He made so many telling contributions. Great kicks, well timed runs, secured awkward kicks.

What has Willemse done.

They will persist with him at 15.

Stormers problem is that there are too many "X factor" players trying to do it all by themselves.

I don't see any patience on the ball. So many mistakes in the backline over the weekend.

You look at a team like Northampton that can get their backline moving with slick passing and forwards interchange.

Where as when ever Willemse and Gelant touched the ball it went dead. Or Sasha throwing wild passed after running into a dead end

Fassi at 15 all day long - he was good for the Sharks on the weekend not that his ability should ever come into question.

He showed on Saturday that there is nothing wrong with his form not that there has been of late as I have kept saying

Jordan Hendrikse is another Willemse at 10. Slow hand to foot, susceptible to the charge down

He is better suited to 15 and 12

Manie walks it by a country mile as Sacha’s back up

Hooker at 15 - no man, what a waste of a good 12 that would be. Does he have a boot on him? You need a boot to be a 15

This is how we are stacked in order

15 Fassi / Hendrikse

14 Kolbe / Seb de Klerk / Horn

13 Moodie / JJ / Henco v Wyk

12 Willemse / Hooker / David Kriel

11 Arendse / Edwill / Jooste

10 Sacha / Libbok / Pollard

9 Williams / vd Bergh / Papier / Pead

Yes, I saw. But the gap between how he was playing before he got injured and now is still very big.

Don't get me wrong, I'm seriously hoping he gets back to where he was because he was on another level to everybody else.

Manie as the back up….why because he’s a great pressure kicker? Sacha is taking high balls and tackling opposing loosies on the charge….I wish he wouldn’t. His tactical kicking is fine and will get better, and ball in hand he is brilliant. What he isn’t is a reliable goal kicker.

That may come. Monty found a way to reduce the variance, but it’s not guaranteed. So logically our back up 10 should be someone we can call on with 15 minutes to play. Pollard is cut out for this Morne role, but his form is a bit alarming.

The player who makes no sense is Manie. Why would you ever take Sacha off the field and bring on Manie.

Manie because he is a gem creatively.

Neither Manie or Sacha are good at goal kicking

I would never take Sacha off

If Manie comes on you could move Sacha to 12, 13 or 15 but ultimately I’d retain him at 10 for the entire game

Manie is a class act - perfect back up for Sacha especially considering how average Pollard is at the moment - he needs to find some form

Aah, the Manie myth...he's so "creative".

But then you look at the evidence and see that Manie doesn't make much from his hands. Nowhere near what Sacha does.

From time to time, one of his cross kicks will come off, but it's mostly high ball stuff, skop en jaag. Take the Wellington game, how much did he create?

And then there is his defence which has always been poor and his extremely unreliable goal kicking.

The question is, why have an understudy that is just a much worse version of your main guy.

Id be looking at what Sacha isn't very effective at and then picking an understudy that is good at those things.

Currently, I'd get Jordan in because his skillset actually allows him to be a proper 23 and if Sacha isn't cracking it on the day, Jordan can come in a take it to the line effectively...something I wouldn't want Sacha doing. Manie is too lightweight for that.

The nightmare is Sacha has a head protocol injury and mandatory removal…..and on comes Manie and it’s 10 minutes into the WC semi.

For me, Manie is a front runner type of 10.

If all is going well then he's good enough. But he's not the type of guy that will take the game on and pull the team back -> which is where Pollard excels.

Pollard's best performances have generally been when the chips are down and he's had to come up with the goods. Not just the goal kicking but, for example, that last 30 against England in the WC. You see him barking orders, taking command and putting the team on his back. That's something Manie simply doesn't possess. And that's why Sacha is so special because, on top of everything else, he's developing that general in him too.

I don't see a massive amount of that in Jordan, but at least you can tell Jordan to run it down the opposition's throat. He's about an inch taller than Sacha and a shade heavier...and he's also only 24, so a prime candidate for a long term partner for a Sacha.

Then again, Pakie would be pissed if we don't enter Jurie Matthee into the conversation. And with good reason, he's looking very solid and is also only 25. And, similar Jordan, isn't just a worse version of Sacha, in that he brings something different to the table.

I dunno, I just hate the idea of having to shift Sacha around to accommodate Manie because Manie can't play anywhere else when you could have guys like Jordan or Matthee that could cover multiple positions and not mess with your main guy.

There is no myth when it comes to Manie, he is a gifted player with a gift for creating for those outside him

His goal kicking is on par with Sacha’s but he is by far our next best attacking 10 after Sacha

There is no close rival to Sacha but Manie is up there with any of the best international 10’s out there

Dave, if you could perhaps extend your arguments slightly beyond "He is good because I say so."

Read your post above back to yourself.

Once you remove all the times you say he is good in different ways, the only actual argument you are making is "He creates for those outside him."

Now imagine we all do the same...

"He is good because I say so..."

"You're wrong, my player is better because I say so...

"You are wrong..."

"No, you are wrong..."

"You're a prick..."

"No! You're a prick..."

Fuck off you cunt

I can switch the lights in my bar on by clapping my hands.

...switching your tiny peanut of a brain off is even easier haha

Oh wow you are so fucking clever

Who’s at 12 this week - is it Ox?

Stupid prick

Do you need a little time for the lights to come back on?

Breathe, fatty, let your struggling circulation do its job...in.....and out...

Who is at 12 this week fuckwit?

URC stats so far this season:

……………………. ….Roos……Willemse

runs………………………77…………42

metres…………………..260………….129

clean breaks …………….2……………2

defenders beaten……….17…………..7

offloads……………………5………….1

So Roos excels in everything but clean breaks, especially in offloading the skill we are looking for in replacing the Tractor and igniting our backline. And he has done this from the pack, a harder running proposition with less space.

I’m thinking a hybrid flank/center move might be interesting.

Join the circus

LOL!

So, Dawie, why say you of those stats?

...or have the lights not come back on yet?

Well let’s see one is a back, who plays in various positions, the other a forward

Do I need to say anymore or are you too fucking stupid to work out the obvious number 12?

Please, do say more. If you're able to switch your brain on for long enough.

But surely playing as a back favors Willemse….smaller players to shake off, more space Wouldn’t Roos just run over smaller oppo centers and then….it’s a great big beautiful move….offload.

Oh boy so attacking as a back in structured play is the same as the attacking play of a forward?

Moz sometimes I do wonder about your grasp of the game

The engaging of props, the role of a blind side flanker and now we the attacking demands on a centre being easier than that of a forward

Alas

So Dave you are saying inside centers make less meters per carry than flanks. We could compare the Duds that would be epic.

How many games each and how does the stats look for the other 12s...for Stormers and other teams?...and 8s ...and what were the match contexts for those stats? ...irrational nonsensical comparison...lies, damn lies and statistics...

No I’m not saying anything but comparing the attacking game of a 12 to that of an 8th man is rugby naivety of the highest level

Worse than that is even entertaining the idea that an 8 could play 12 at a professional level

Anyone thinking it’s a possibility is someone who knows very little about the game - classic case of a simple rugby supporter

Skinstat was a great 8, but could probably have been better at 12 than some other top 12s at the time...8 was his best position though...by far...but... :-)

BTW...Roos receives the ball @12 in many plays, but playing center is a bit more complicated than just running...he's a good passer, but he pass when he runs out of other options...he's not there yet wrt reading play well enough to put another backline player away with a good pass or grubber...etc ...he would be just a good a hybrid center than AE is a hybrid flanker..absurd actually...

If there was one forward on the planet that might have made a centre it was Bob - but even he would have fallen short

Rassie picked AE on the bench to play him as a flanker replacement when he could have rather picked Roos as a bench flanker able to play 12 as well...npt like we're struggling with having enough forwards on the bench these days.

It’s far easier to play blindside flank than centre - that move is achievable. A forward to centre is not

God has spoken

Well if you know rugby you would know that

Has there EVER been a forward who made it as a top level centre - NO

I wonder why?

List the international forwards that have been moved to inside center….that way I’ll be able to tell you if they made it

There are over 1000 forwards that have made the move

My fingers are not fit enough to type all their names