sharkbok
Captain23,285 posts
sharkbokCaptain23,285 posts
09 Feb 2015, 14:58#3
Our teams will not longer have a squad of experienced players. So those that do have experience will be played into the ground with little to no rotation. Instead they can go play in France or Japan and be apart of a bigger squad and have longer careers.
The young players nowdays just leave if they are not in the Springbok picture. With Meyer picking the likes of Fat Steehkamp etc, their bok chances may even improve playing overseas.
09 Feb 2015, 15:04#4
"Our teams will not longer have a squad of experienced players. So those that do have experience will be played into the ground with little to no rotation. "
Experience is over rated. Ask Saffex and Mike.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Feb 2015, 15:19#5
Ceradyne
Are you daft? I never said experience is not an asset - I said experience is important - but then it must be coupled to performance. If the latter is absent experience becomes a liability.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Feb 2015, 15:57#6
Inexperience is not an asset and combined with no performance tends to be a problem. What has Kitshof for example done to date? I have watched him scrum in many matches and I have never seen him dominate a decent opposing tighthead. Very ordinary in the scrums and decent in the loose. His most notable asset is his red hair that tends to get him noticed. Nothing will change with his departure.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Feb 2015, 16:11#8
Experience is overrated? Which I suppose is why RWC winning teams average 28 years.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Feb 2015, 16:19#9
Mozart
Experience without performance is a serious liability. The average age of World cup winning teams is between 27 and 28 years of age. Once that goes to near 30 - it becomes a serious liability.
Lets take this simple example - say there are two players on par in the case of performances - then the more experienced one should get the nod.
What is happening at present in respect of Meyer is total disregard of performance with an emphasis on experience only - follish to put it mildly.
And Kitshoff is vastly superior to Fat Steenkamp at present.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Feb 2015, 16:32#11
Willemse and Matfield play in different positions. Steenkamp vs Kitshoff could be debated. Jean is vastly better than Stepfonten.
09 Feb 2015, 16:42#13
Moz and Saff you are both full of shart!!! The best sides are neither young nor old! The best sides are those that get the balance between youth and experience right. Simple!
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
09 Feb 2015, 16:53#16
Rubbish Moz is all about the old farts
sharkbok
Captain23,285 posts
sharkbokCaptain23,285 posts
09 Feb 2015, 17:03#17
Good teams are made from good players, not young or old players.
Selecting past it has been's, or very average youngsters who are just temporary stop gaps will never win tournaments.
The Bok team in 2007 was pretty young, but they won the tournament because many of their players were the best in the world in their positions, or thereabouts.
England won the 2003 World Cup because they had the strongest pack in world rugby with a good kicking flyhalf. Their team fell apart the next year as many of their players became too old or injury prone.
The Boks are going into this World Cup with players past their best, but many of the youngsters are not any better- or just plain worse.
Habana, JP, FDP are all past their best, however they still offer more than what the youngsters offered in last years SuperXV. Maybe Kolbe will leap frog JP in the pecking order this year. Senatala still needs to prove he can play 15 man rugby.
For youngsters to even remotely be considered at Bok level, they have to do well in the SuperXV and get man of the match performances. No point having decent games at Curry Cup level which is nowdays a very low level.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
09 Feb 2015, 17:10#18
FDP was as average as they come
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
09 Feb 2015, 17:10#19
FDP was as average as they come
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Feb 2015, 17:47#20
Sharkbok
JP is supposed to be at his prime - but he has lost a lot of pace - which raises serious question marks about his continued selection.
FdP has been bog ordinary in the games he played in for the Springboks in 2014. Whether he is still the top choice scrummie is seriously debatable - at his sage it appears that reputation trumps performance.
Jean de Villiers - lots of talk - but he was bog ordinary in 2014 and then injured. Will be off until at least June and may never recover to play again. If he plays in the WC - it is likely to be a major problem - so maybe he should be forgotten about.
09 Feb 2015, 18:26#21
Experience at test level has nothing to do with age but rather caps, you can't talk about a player being experienced at test level because he's 30 and has a few caps. That's ridiculous. For example look at Jan Serfontein (21) and Jared Payne (29).Jan Serfontein = 20 test capsJared Payne = 3 test caps
Who is more experienced?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Feb 2015, 18:56#22
Actually I agree with you SB but the team in 2007 averaged over 27 years. Most team sports have players between 25 and 30 as the core, with a few exceptional older players....and a few highly talented young players whose talent is not in question. Stepfontein is not such a talent.....Jean and BOD were.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Feb 2015, 20:11#24
What a joke. He is slow, not particularly strong, has no boot, doesn't create anything. Defensively he tackles well in a neutral sort of way, but is vulnerable on the outside. A whole season of starts produced one interception and a break against Oz where he had Horwill to beat. His 2014 was a big, fat nothing.
09 Feb 2015, 20:22#25
The days of scoring 10 tries in your first 15 test are gone, only very special wingers/fullbacks will be able to do that nowadays Eg. Savea and Folau.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Feb 2015, 20:48#26
Jean and Habana were very special players....Steppie is not. In any case I dont buy your premise. For that to be true scores will have dropped.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
09 Feb 2015, 20:58#27
He is no slower than Jean is physically stronger than Jean. Has a step and is able to beat his man on the outside....something Jean has never been able to do.
Jan is far more gifted a player and will go down as better than Jean by the time he retires. Aged 21 he is already streaks ahead of Jean at the same age.
Jean was good, Jan is better.
sharkbok
Captain23,285 posts
sharkbokCaptain23,285 posts
09 Feb 2015, 23:04#28
Sefontein is the better defender. Other than that Jean is a better player in every way. Even at his current age and injury list, he is still a faster runner than Serfontein.
We the Boks are attacking from broken play, Serfontein is the last to hear about it. He is never the last passer to make a try or score himself.
He is just too far back behind play due to being the slowest back on the pitch.
I am not sure if he also has issues reading the broken play as well, but if he is not scoring tries against Italy he need be worried.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
09 Feb 2015, 23:40#29
Your rugby ignorance shines as bright as ever. Jan is far better with ball in hand. At least has a step something Jean never had.
But kindly point out one bit of enterprising attacking play that Jean delivered all year
10 Feb 2015, 02:47#30
Hate to break it to you Sharkbok but have you forgotten all about Hougaard's try against the All Blacks? And Serfontein's involvement in it? Yes you have.
What people need to realise and not undervalue is that Jan has played at 13 for the majority of last season, OUT OF POSITION.
I can't debate rugby with people who are so conservative and tunnel-vision'd it beggars belief.
Jean was crap in 2014 and did absolutely zilch. Time for Meyer to make the decision to discard (Sadly) Jean and invest in Serfontein or De Allende for what remaining tests before the RWC we have. To not use these tests just so Jean can get into full fitness/form, we don't have time.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
10 Feb 2015, 03:53#31
I don't think Jean will be ready, but that's not to say he isn't a big loss. Step did nothing any centre couldn't have done all year, nothing distinctive, nothing special. If you look at the games you still see Jean much more likely to ride a tackle and offload, or to intervene in an opposition move which is potentially dangerous.
Investing in the ordinary is rarely a winning strategy.
10 Feb 2015, 08:19#32
Shezza, that try is a very bad example of how Serfontein is better than Jean! If you watch the try again you'll notice that it was Jean's chip through that created the space for Hendricks, Serfontein and ultimately Hougard.
Is Jean or Serfontein better? I don't know. What I do know is that at Jean's age he will definitely have lost some pace and strength, and he had a very average year last year. His injury, as unfortunate as it is, will leave the door open for someone to put up their hand at 12. Here is the big issue though, our problem is not at 12, it is at 13. Jaque fourie when he was at his best, was a great 13, but w e haven't had anyone since him that is even remotely world class in that position.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
10 Feb 2015, 09:15#33
Bluebok
I agree with you about the situation regarding the center scenario. In essense the situation is difficult.
Insofar as Jean de Villiers is concerned I am afraid you are correct. I have always been a great admirer of him - but to be really honest he was excellent in 2013 and bog ordinary in 2014. His regrettable injury will result in him being out of rugby until June- July this year and I doubt whether he would be matchfit and producing reasonable quality rugby for the Rugby Championship and the WC - especially in view of his relatively ordinary performances in 2014 and his long absence from the game.
That leaves us with a problem at 12. Mozart dislikes Serfontein intensely and will never write anything positive about the guy - the lack of pace story originated from him. I do not agree with Mozart on that score - Serfontein is a good no 12 and has more positives to him than most people admit. Is he the best 12 we have in SA - not sure about that - but he is in the squad and will be difficult to dislodge.
The other alternatives are Damian de Allende and Francois Steyn. De Allende is one of the best youngsters p;laying at center I have seen for years. He has one thing that the others lack and that is an ability to read games - time his passes - and make line breaks. He was statistically one of the best centers in Super 15 last year. However, Meyer wants to try him out at 13 - a position he never played in since he left school. Francois Steyn over the last two years had putrid center performances on Super 15 level - the worst attacking center in Super 15 and a seriously defective defense record. I cannot see how he would improve this year.
That leaves us with the critical 13 position. Problem is that in his hay day Fourie was the best we had - but his hay day has gone and last year he was completely inadequate in attacking play. The other 13's are all problematic -
Juan de Jongh
This player is a serious defense liability and useless in atatck unless somebody creates space for him to run into -seriously too small and light for internnational rugby. His last two tests in 2012 was a serious embarrassment for the team.
JJ Engelbrecht
This guy went to the Bulls as a wing. He has lots of pace, but there is a real problem with him - he lacks ball sense, a real requirement for center play. His main problem remains - running like a wing and aiming virtually totally straight at the first defender. That results in the fact that he is useless in creating space for oth er players. Dave want to have a fit when I says so - but some other members agree Engelbrecht is wasted at center.
Jaco Taute
This guy is a full back - not a center. He will n ever make the grade at center.
That leaves us with a few other possibilities. I have a high opinion of Stokkies Hanekom and Jordaan - two players who specialize at playing at 13. My real preferences in that position will be -
1 Damian de Allende 2 Stokkies Hanekom3 JJ Engelbrecht4 Paul Jordaan
Maybe the upcoming Super 15 will show us the way to go.
10 Feb 2015, 17:44#37
Blue I'm not debating Jean's involvement in that try, I'm concentrating more on Sharkbok's claim that he's never involved in a try scoring move or is the last passer.
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
10 Feb 2015, 17:55#38
Careful Shezza, I don't think you're allowed to rate Jan Serfontein . . . not after the board's resident clown and pompous old windbag has branded him as ordinary at best.
Personally I think Serfontein is a fantastic prospect and if he stays free of major injury has the potential to become a Springbok legend . . . but just watch how he gets slagged off on this board by Grima and his servile Gimps!
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
10 Feb 2015, 17:58#39
Rich coming from the old fool who thinks Etzebeth is a thug and slags him off at every opportunity.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
10 Feb 2015, 18:25#40
Agree Rooi. Serf seems to be the natural successor to Jean.Moz, Rooi has a general aversion to anything south of the Drakensberge, so don't bother about his stance on Eben.
