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FORUM / RUGBY /  Lancaster got fired - why should Meyer not suffer the same fate

Lancaster got fired - why should Meyer not suffer the same fate

Started by clevermike24 REPLIES600 VIEWS· 12 Nov 2015, 07:33
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Nov 2015, 07:33
#1
12 Nov 2015, 07:33#1
The following from News 24:-
"Rugby Football Union chief executive Ian Ritchie said Wednesday that England were determined to appoint a coach of "proven international experience" in succession to Stuart Lancaster -- however long it took.

England's dismal World Cup campaign set the seal on Lancaster's three-and-a-half years in charge, with the RFU announcing earlier on Wednesday he had left his post by "mutual consent".


Under Lancaster -- who had little prior elite rugby experience -- England became the first host nation to fail to get out of the group phase at the recent World Cup.

RFU chief executive Ritchie said the decision to replace Lancaster had been "unanimously accepted" by the governing body's board.


England's next match is their Six Nations opener away to Scotland on February 6, with the squad due to be announced in January.   But, despite that timescale, Ritchie said the RFU would not rush the appointment of Lancaster's successor.

"The most important thing is to get the right person," Ritchie told a Twickenham news conference.


"It's very important we get a head coach of proven international experience. Speed is important, but the right person is more important."

Ritchie's comments paved the way for England to appoint their first overseas coach, with former South Africa boss Jake White and Australia's Michael Cheika among those linked with the job.


Few domestic candidates, other than members of the current backroom staff or former coaches such as 2003 World Cup winning supremo Clive Woodward, have the international experience that Ritchie deems so essential.


Ritchie refused to be drawn into naming a shortlist on Wednesday but refuted an Australian press report that RFU president Jason Leonard, the former England prop, had approached Cheika.


The RFU chief executive said the decision to dispense with Lancaster, who only last year was given a new contract taking him and his assistants to beyond the 2019 World Cup in Japan, had been taken after consultation with 59 people closely involved with the England team, including the players.


"Nobody is more disappointed than (RFU chairman) Bill (Beaumont), Stuart or myself about our performance at the Rugby World Cup," said Ritchie.


"We conducted a comprehensive review. The panel saw 29 people, I spoke privately and at length with another 30 people and gave those views back into the panel.

"After the conclusion of the panel, I spent several hours with Stuart and together concluded that it was time for a change of head coach. This action was unanimously endorsed by the RFU board."


Ritchie added Lancaster would not be moved to another job in the RFU hierarchy.

"For a new head coach, it's very difficult for the previous head coach to be sitting there within the organisation...We felt it was right to make a clean break."

Ritchie appointed Lancaster and last year was responsible for giving him a contract that ran until 2020.


In September, just prior to the start of the World Cup, Ritchie said he would accept "responsibility" for appointing Lancaster if the team fell short at the World Cup.

But on Wednesday, Ritchie insisted he had not considered his own position and was adamant he was still the right man to oversee the appointment of a new coach.

"Of course I feel personally about what's happened and what's gone on," Ritchie said.

"I think it's equally important, though, that I continue to deliver for the organisation and move it forward.


Beaumont, sitting alongside Ritchie, added: "Ian has the full support of the board in going out and recruiting the best coach we can get.

"We're thoroughly behind Ian in the process and I think what he's done over the four years he's been here... we're in a pretty good state," added Beaumont, England's 1980 Grand Slam-winning captain.


Meanwhile Ritchie said the future of Lancaster's assistants -- Graham Rowntree, Andy Farrell and Mike Catt -- would be a matter for the new coach.

"The assistant coaches remain under contract. The head coach will want to have look at what he's got in terms of assistants."


Two things from the above.  Lancaster did not have a poor 6 nations recrd over the last two years.   However, in comparison Meyer had a disastrous two seasons - coming third in 2014 and last this year in the RC.   The crud produced as a game plan in the RC did not prevent a loss against Japan and even though by some miracle they beat the Welsh in the quarterfinal - the Springboks was a disaster over the past 14 months - losing half of the matches they played in.  So why should Meyer not suffer the same fate.
One would not wish it on the poor English rugby players - but the English would be in the hunt for a recognized coach and one of the main candidates could be Jake White.  After the disaster he is at present in Montpellier thus far this year - and after being asked to leave by the Sharks, White may be the one the English pick, even though Eddie Jones would be a far better option.  Montpellier will probably be delighted to see White going anyway.
In the interest of SA Rugby and the detriment of English rugby lets hope -
*   Meyer gets the boot as SA Coach;*   Eddie Jones is not involved in getting the England coaching job - he can do much better in SA;*   to the relief of the Montpellier supporters Jake White gets the England coaching job.
       
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
12 Nov 2015, 07:36
#2
12 Nov 2015, 07:36#2
 ...ol Jake the flake is the leading candidate - too funny..
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Nov 2015, 08:15
#3
12 Nov 2015, 08:15#3
 Incidentally - England should get Meyer - that would be on huge help to SA Rugby and any teams England has to face in test rugby.  
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
12 Nov 2015, 08:18
#4
12 Nov 2015, 08:18#4
Meyer had his shot and fluffed it. Ne xt please! 
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
12 Nov 2015, 08:29
#5
12 Nov 2015, 08:29#5
Who is Meyer's replacement?  
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
12 Nov 2015, 08:37
#6
12 Nov 2015, 08:37#6
Pakie, the obvious reply would be Ackerman. He looks like a great coach, but I think he still needs to get more experience before he can be considered. Realistically, there are good coaches out there if the powers that be are prepared to look beyond our borders! Here is an option nobody has discussed, Graham Henry!  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Nov 2015, 08:43
#7
12 Nov 2015, 08:43#7
 Pakie
Or Eddie Jones - the latter is the bookie's favourite for the job should Meyer go as well.  
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
12 Nov 2015, 08:53
#8
12 Nov 2015, 08:53#8
I'm not sure SA rugby will give preference to a foreign coach. They have always gone for local coaches. Not sure either that Eddie will take the job - I don't think many foreigners will want to take on that politically and racially charged environment. Don't be surprised if we wish Meyer away and end up with the likes of Allister Coetzee.
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
12 Nov 2015, 08:57
#9
12 Nov 2015, 08:57#9
You may be right Pakie, but Alistair Coetzee would be a complete failure! He is another PDV that is too buddy buddy with th e players! Also, he is probably even more conservative than Meyer! Ackerman maybe, or a foreign coach....but please not Coetzee! 
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
12 Nov 2015, 09:01
#10
12 Nov 2015, 09:01#10
As much as I'd personally like the admittedly inexperienced Johan Ackerman to take over from Heyneke Meyer, I think Allister Coetzee is the most likely choice . . . if Meyer is indeed sacked at all.

I've never really rated Allister Coetzee as a coach and you can bet skin colour will play a big role if he does get the job, but I can't see him being any worse than the hopelessly conservative and unimaginative Heyneke Meyer.
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
12 Nov 2015, 09:05
#11
12 Nov 2015, 09:05#11
If SARU are gonna go for continuity then maybe Akkers isn't a bad shout. Here are some positives I think he'll bring... Team spirit(probably more important than most realize and surely missing from the Boks currently) Individual coaching of players and seems to bring out the best in them. Eg Combrink Attacking game, up front and out wide Strong set pieces Fitness focused as opposed to pure size. One thing I can relay first hand is after watching a S15 game at Loftus where the Lions lost out to the Bulls. We sat and watched the Lions train for 30 minutes after that game. All the subs etc were on the field and the team were passing ball, sprinting up and down and doing various drills. Best of all...they had the biggest smiles on their faces and.you could tell that even though they had just lost, those players all wanted to be there. Two things about this struck me. 1) They have an amazing team sipirit and 2) they are not afraid to lose. It's no surprise that they are doing as well as they are and maybe Akkers nativity as coach could do something special for the boks. There is after all a good amount of ignorance involved in bravery. I dunno, just my two cents.
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
12 Nov 2015, 09:06
#12
12 Nov 2015, 09:06#12

 ...Robbie Deans in the mix..,,touted as a potential saviour for England..


BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
12 Nov 2015, 09:08
#13
12 Nov 2015, 09:08#13
They can have Deans....
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
12 Nov 2015, 09:09
#14
12 Nov 2015, 09:09#14

 ...Peter deVilliers...touted as potential saviour for England...


BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
12 Nov 2015, 09:10
#15
12 Nov 2015, 09:10#15
Bwahahahahaha!! PDV!!! Bwahahahahaha!!!
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
12 Nov 2015, 09:23
#16
12 Nov 2015, 09:23#16

 ...what the bookies are saying re England...


Rob Baxter (5-1)

Has established Exeter Chiefs as a force in the English Premiership since their promotion in 2010. Baxter, a player with Exeter for 14 years, assisted Lancaster during England's tour to Argentina in 2013 but last month said he intended to honour his contract with Exeter.

Mike Ford (5-1)

Head coach of Bath, who were beaten Premiership finalists last season, and father of England flyhalf George Ford. Has previous experience in the national set-up as a defence coach.

Jake White (5-1)

South African who won the World Cup with the Springboks in 2007 and has been linked with the England job on several occasions. Currently coach of Montpellier in France, White told British media last month he would be interested in the job.

Eddie Jones (6-1)

Highlighted his credentials with Japan at this year's World Cup, masterminding the shock opening victory over South Africa and two other pool stage wins.

Australian Jones guided the Wallabies to the 2003 World Cup final and was a technical adviser to 2007 winners South Africa. Now taking up a Super Rugby role with South Africa's Stormers.

Jim Mallinder (6-1)

In charge of Northampton Saints since 2007 and has international ambitions. Has previous experience in the England set-up with the under-21 and Saxon sides.

Nick Mallet (10-1)

Former South Africa and Italy head coach who was on England's shortlist four years ago. The RFU was forced to deny approaching Mallett before England's final World Cup game against Uruguay following reports that he had turned down an offer to replace Lancaster.

Other selected names:

Warren Gatland (12-1)

The New Zealander is under contract with Wales for another four years having announced he will step down after the 2019 World Cup. Has laughed off speculation linking him with the England job and would be a surprise if the former British and Irish Lions boss was appointed.

Michael Cheika (16-1)

Named World Rugby Coach of the Year after transforming Australia's fortunes and steering the Wallabies to the World Cup final which they lost to New Zealand. England are said to have sounded out the former Leinster and New South Wales Waratahs coach.

Clive Woodward (20-1)

The man who guided England to World Cup glory in 2003 has been linked with a director of rugby role but has said he has no interest in taking up such a position.

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
12 Nov 2015, 09:40
#17
12 Nov 2015, 09:40#17
 

Interesting two potential candidates go head to head this weekend where Jake the flake's Montpelier faces Harlequins coached by..


Conor O'Shea                    Age: 45

Nationality: Irish

Current position: Director of rugby at Harlequins

Credentials: Capped 35 times by Ireland between 1993 and 2000 before becoming director of rugby at London Irish. Hired by the RFU to run the national academy and then became national director at the English Institute of Sport. Joined Harlequins in 2010, leading them to the Premiership title in 2012.

What he said: He has not spoken publicly about the post.

Odds: 7-1



Challenges facing new England coach

Challenges for the new England coach

Squad disharmony

Squad disharmony

On Tuesday, full-back Mike Brown said he has lost all trust in his England team-mates after leaks from the dressing room, with suggestions some players questioned the ill-fated selection of Sam Burgess over Luther Burrell.

The new coach will have to rebuild England's confidence and enthusiasm quickly, with a rejuvenated Scotland first up on 6 February in the 2016 Six Nations.

Brown said: "It is going to be hard for me to call anyone team-mates until we meet up."


Overseas Players

Overseas players

The RFU's policy is not to select foreign-based players unless in "exceptional circumstances".

But do the circumstances get more exceptional than Australian back-rowers David Pocock and Michael Hooper dominating their England counterparts, while Steffon Armitage cannot be selected?

Clermont full-back Nick Abendanon, Armitage's successor as European Player of the Year, also missed out, with both players saying they were hurt by the opinions of the England players who backed the RFU's policy.

Australia tweaked their selection policy to bring in European-based stars Matt Giteau and Drew Mitchell - could a new coach explore this option for England?


Centre pairing

Centre pairing

A perennial problem since the end of Will Greenwood and Mike Tindall's partnership in 2004, Lancaster failed to find a long0-term solution.

The outgoing coach tried 14 different centre pairings, with only Brad Barritt and Manu Tuilagi starting more than 10 games together.

The good news for England's new coach is the talent is out there, with Jonathan Joseph's emergence on the international stage, Henry Slade breaking into the England set-up and Elliot Daly impressing for Wasps in the Premiership.

Luther Burrell and Kyle Eastmond could return, while Tuilagi's future remains unclear after his exclusion from the World Cup squad.


Lack of experience

Lack of experience

World champions New Zealand came into the World Cup with an average of 48 caps per player, South Africa averaged 42, Australia 40 and England just 25.

Lancaster's aim for 2015 was to have a team containing 600 caps. He fell well short, and history suggests his replacement will need to build a team with that level of experience to challenge for the 2019 World Cup in Japan.

Lancaster also had no experience of leading a senior international side, which potential candidates such as Mike Ford and Jim Mallinder would also have to overcome.


Style of play

Style of play

At times during Lancaster's reign, England struggled to introduce more attacking flair but always felt they could rely on a solid pack and set-piece.

Yet England were dominated in the scrum by Australia, while the decision to drop George Ford in favour of Owen Farrell at fly-half could not bring victory over Wales.

With both approaches faltering, Lancaster's successor will have to re-establish English rugby's identity.

BBC

BL
BlikkiesPro1,526 posts
12 Nov 2015, 11:08
#18
12 Nov 2015, 11:08#18

Meyer made 2 mistakes. The one is fixable and the other will not happen again.

1. The fixable mistake is that he thought World Cups are usually win with  penalty kicks and the attacking skills of the backline is not critical. Hence his/SARU appointment of a very incompetent backline coach. This can/should be fix.

2. Meyer relied far too much on old players which were unable to deliver. They are all goners and can not get to the next WC.


I would rather see Meyer again as coach but this time with capable assistant coaches.

 

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
12 Nov 2015, 12:25
#19
12 Nov 2015, 12:25#19
 
Come now Blikkies ... Meyer is an ass.

He made more than 2 mistakes in the last 4 years, are you kidding me ... all he ever did was make mistakes. 

From selecting his coaching staff ... right through to selection a squad and his match 23.  

He's yet to select an outside center that actually plays there.

He selected a blindside flanker to play at 6 ... and a useless loosehead prop to play at tighthead.

Never mind the elderly that he looked toward for victory ... of which everyone of them dropped him.

Did that stop him from selecting them again and again and again  ... ???

He even expects a natural 4 lock to play at 5 and impress ... we all saw how well that worked out against the All Blacks didn't we? 

Don't you think it's better to actually select a coach who knows and understands the game of rugby ... instead of just winging it.

Relying and depending on divine intervention each match is not a game plan, Blikkies.

What if the opposition are also Christian?

Ackerman is not the right guy for test duty. He has a year's experience in Super Rugby and now we want to slot him in as test coach.

Have you guys lost your mind.

It's a professional sport ... time to select a professional coach ... not another fly by night wannabe.    

 
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
12 Nov 2015, 12:55
#20
12 Nov 2015, 12:55#20
A very apt and good point was raised by Plum...perhaps the most important point of all.... Team spirit(probably more important than most realize and surely missing from the Boks currently) Individual coaching of players and seems to bring out the best in them.

I surmise this is true...over the years watching school rugby gives a strong indicator to this very true fact...teams have always been strong and competitive when you have a gifted motivator...it's a very special rare gift...Sharks played beyond themselves under Ian Mac...Springboks beat the best team in 1995 under Kitch Christie...Maritzburg College were undefeated for nearly 10 years in the sixties or thereabouts when Skonk Nicholson coached and his effect was even felt after he retired from teaching...he did this with very ordinary players...Grey College coach the same...the Paarl schools the same...Affies, Monument and now Dale...the list goes on.

You might well have coaches with technical skills but you have to be a motivator amongst young men to fuel the side...Ackermann quite obviously has this gift.


BL
BlikkiesPro1,526 posts
12 Nov 2015, 13:44
#21
12 Nov 2015, 13:44#21

Clean Cut:

I think  Meyer understands rugby pretty well. He did not win the S15 two years in a row for nothing and he was Nick Mallett's assistant forward coach during that record breaking  number of tests. No man, the guy knows his rugby, but I will be the first to admit that something is/was wrong in the team.

Neither you or I will know what happened behind the doors. Did he select his assist. coaches or was that done for him by racist SARU?

On your specific questions:

On the flanker issue: I think the Ozzies has again showed that it is perfectly possible to play 2 fetchers in the squad - provided your locks and 8th man can provide enough cover in the lineouts.

Your remarks on the backline issues were covered by my remark on the selection of the backline coach. Backline is not his forte, but I don't know to what extend he was blocked by SARU to obtain some additional help.

No I don't believe in divine intervention, but hey, was it not for a blade of grass that had some chalk on it, we would not have won the 2007 RWC. lol

If Ackers was ready, I would also have shouted for him to take over, but I agree that it is perhaps a year too early for Ackerman. Who else is left? No SA coach that I am aware of.

  

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
12 Nov 2015, 14:00
#22
12 Nov 2015, 14:00#22
Well to be frank...I don't see any innovation coming in the near future...we will do it the Saffa way...another trip around the mulberry bush...gosh we are suckers for punishment...do South Africans every learn from experience and repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

The only time we do anything is when it's far too late for a quick fix and then...the panic syndrome sets in...I think I've lived too long in this country to remain sane

And all intelligent folk know...there are no quick fixes...we need to find the right man and start building step by step with balance of young blood and (experience as a catalyst that is gradually phased out) ...with a vision and a plan. A tree never grows well if it is not pruned.

They say a bo er maak a plan...but I don't see it???
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
12 Nov 2015, 15:02
#23
12 Nov 2015, 15:02#23
Blikkies, you have it all wrong! Firstly, Meyer only won one Super Rugby title. Secondly, he brought his own coaching team, basically all from the Bulls, to the Boks setup. Lastly, if he had so little control over the selection of the team/coaching staff, why would he want to go through it all again and be coach? 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
12 Nov 2015, 15:26
#24
12 Nov 2015, 15:26#24
 HM settled for the Bulls coaches after he was turned down by the a few others, Allister Coetzee being one in particular.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
13 Nov 2015, 08:24
#25
13 Nov 2015, 08:24#25
 
The way I see it is that when a thoroughbred horse wins a big race, all credit should be given to it and not necessarily to the jokey.

Yes I know that that is the case in horse racing.

It's easy to win titles when you have a team of champions. That was the case with the Bulls. Even Ludeke won a a super rugby championship, didn't he?

The Boks beat the All Blacks and took the Tri Nations under Divvy the Snor. You cannot tell me that Divvy and his "brilliant" coaching skills brought this about ... surely?

If Meyer understands rugby as you say he does then surely he would have done better with the masses of talent available to him?

Has the Boks won the Tri Nations under him ... or the Rugby Championships ... how many times have the Boks beaten the All Blacks in the last 4 years?

Where did the Boks end up in this years RC?

Let us no longer look for excuses.

Yes he is obligated to select players of colour ... however this can be done on merit now.

There is no getting around the fact that Meyer and his so called understanding has cost the Boks dearly. Losses to Japan, Scotland, Wales and Argentina says it all.

It's time to move on.



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