Marcel Coetzee - this is going to hurt Mozart badly

The following report on Coetzee came from rugby365:-

"Sharks coach Brad Mcleod-Henderson has said that Marcell Coetzee should have been named the Player of the Year for 2014 over Duane Vermeulen.

 Speaking ahead of the Sharks' first match against the Cheetahs, Mcleod-Henderson was full of praise for his all action forward who he believes has molded himself into the best openside flank in the world. "I think I said it last year already; I think Marcell Coetzee is the worlds best openside," Mcleod-Henderson said. "Not only is he a devastating threat at the breakdown, he is also a fantastic ball carrier. "He had an unbelievable season last year and I think he was maybe a little unlucky to be pipped by Duane Vermeulen [at the SARU awards evening where Coetzee was a finalist for Player of the Year alongside Vermeulen]. "Against Toulon he had a brilliant, brilliant game, he is firing on all cylinders and we can't wait to see him on Saturday." 
Coetzee's 2014 was an impressive one, for both the Sharks and the Springboks, with the flank sitting near top of the stats for tackles and turnovers in Super Rugby. Coetzee managed a 91 percent tackle completion rate, missing only 11 out of 107, this slightly edged Vermeulen's at 89 percent (14 missed out of 112) Vermeulen got the better of Coetzee in turnovers with 14 compared to 12, however the Stormers man did play one more game than his rival. In attack the stats are close again, with Vermeulen racking up 134 carries to Coetzee's 129. Defenders beaten favours the Stormers man slightly with 29 against 22, but Coetzee did score three tries to Vermeulen's one. However, the biggest surprise in the stats must be that Coetzee, notorious for not passing, made only one less pass than the No.8 (46 to 47) and almost doubled the number of offloads (11 to six). The Sharks coach may have some justification in comparing Coetzee to South Africa's best player based on the stats, but it is Coetzee's mental determination and drive that really excites the Mcleod-Henderson. "Marcell has a brilliant work ethic, he is always looking to work and do the extras," the coach added. "He is still a young guy who is evolving his game, he is still going to grow and improve and we look forward to watching that happen." Mcleod-Henderson still had some praise left over for a few more of his forwards, especially those who shone brightly in the muddy condition in France against Toulon. "If you watch the Toulon game Renaldo [Bothma] had a fantastic game, he carried the ball really well and defended very aggressively, so we are very happy with his performance," he said. More praise came for captain Bismarck du Plessis who was a menace at the breakdown and looked to be back to his best. "I don't think Bismarck [du Plessis] has ever really been in bad form," he went on. "He also had a great game against Toulon, it was a nice challenge and a very physical game - Bizzy loves that. "He leads the boys from the front so we are really fortunate to have him as our captain." Speaking more on the breakdown, Mcleod-Henderson was happy at how it was managed by the Sharks against Toulon in a game where the forwards were definitely key. "You are always focusing on the breakdown, it is an area that we work hard on, we spend a lot of time on it," the coach said. "We were happy with our breakdown against Toulon with quiet a few guys getting some turn overs.  "We have still got to make sure that we stay within our systems and not go out on one-man wrecking missions though, we need to try to stick to our defensive systems"
The above came from a rugby expert who works regularly with Coetzee and put pay to Mozart's constant harping about how poor a player Coetzee is.     Time to wake up and smell the roses Mozart.  

 
Mcleod Henderson has clearly been smoking too much Durban Poison.

He's hallucinating.

No way Coetzee could ever match Vermeulen ... not in any department.

Clean, I agree, Vermeulen was in a class of his own, and stats don't always tell the full story. However, Coetzee did have a good season, and he is a player that is often overlooked by the biased posters here. 

Vermeulen was tops but Coetzee was a close second. This kid is a class act  

Oh please. The only thing that hurts is that we continue to delude ourselves in this way. Not a fetcher which is his assignment. Not a ball carrier, because he isn't very powerful and dies with the ball. Not really a lineout option.

A very energetic,  hard trier....outplayed by Warburton and pretty much every other decent fetcher he met. 
His trump card....effort...will be nullified in the RWC when bigger, better athletes raise their energy level.
But dream on chaps.

 Mozart
I agree McLeod-Henderson went overboard here - but Coetzee remains a top class player.  I would rather believe the version of rugby coaches in player assessments than I would believe you, since it is evident that you are prejudiced against 90%  of the younger players. 
Whenever a younger player comes to the fore and pose a threat to some of the has-beens you favour,  then the younger player gets attacked by you - sometimes fo r the flimsiest of reasons.   

Moz you get so many players wrong.....Coetzee might just be at the top of your list  

Fully agree in that short statement...Vermeulen is the tops but MC is a close second...he is a class flanker...cannot understand how you cannot see this Moz...you don't seem to like Shark players...Lambie and Reinach is another that you close your eyes to

Perhaps somebody could opine on what position he plays
If its open side flank you might as yourself whether he is any good on the deck what crucial turnovers he has actually made.
If  it's blind side flank you might ask yourself what breaks he has made, what fine offloads he has made.

When you struggle a bit with that you will realize he mostly just makes a bunch of process tackles. Hell he is never seen taking a back down in space. 
Very overrated.

 Mozart
May I respectfully ask you a question, especially in view of your following comments:-
"If it's blind side flank you might ask yourself what breaks he has made, what fine offloads he has made."
The question is - what is the roll of a blindside flank in your opinion?
The problem I have with that statement is - what about defense, ball protection and recovery, etc.    To my mind those are the functions of a blindside flank as well.   
If it comes to breaks being made - you always punt Alberts as a blindside flank -  but when last did he make a break over the past four years?   It might have happened in 2011 - in 2012 and subsequently there never was  a case of a break.
Lastly - you tried to explain once what you meant by "process tackles" - but it seems you decide that some players make process tackles only because they make more tackles than others whose tackles are no different.   In terms of your description all Matfield tackles are in fact "process tackles" - yet you praise him for making the tackles and leave out the "process" in his case.           

Devastating effect at the breakdown. Did you miss that bit. Moz your problem is that your views on players don't evolve. Coetzee was never initially a 6 but has learnt the art and was very good with effecting turnovers last year.
But to prove the point let's see how he goes in that department this S15.
The lad is not good, he is class

The s15 is not the right forum. He will be very much in evidence in the S15....he expends so much energy. It's at  RWC that we won't get the production we need ...as he is dominated. The RWC is won by iron hard monsters like Schalk, not by nice boys who do their best.

 No mention of the question I ask about the roll of a blindside flank.   Now suddenly a reference to Burger.  Is Burger still on par what he was four years ago?   He looked very good when he came of the bench - less good when he started in games.  We will have to see what Burger produces in Super 15 this year.
Just a different perspective - a player who under-performs in Super 15 has zero chance of performing better  on higher level - irrespective of what his nam e is.        

Coetzee is twice the 6 Schalk ever was. Coetzee has produced the goods in tests already so a WC will be no different.
Coetzee is a class act, the S15 will prove that.

Clueless.  

 Is he more of a 6 and a half, like Chris Robshaw then ? You know, doesn't effect enough turnovers, that sort of thing ?! 

 Mozart
With respect -  I think the difference about a great player like Burger is not whathe produced in the past - it is what he produces at present.   Reputation does not automatically translate to performance and that is where the problem lies in all debates on rugby players from the glorious 2007 WC.
None of the players of that era can at present even produce a fraction of what they produced then - and this even includes Burger. 

 Richie Mccaw says hello

 3ku1
Interesting to see what McCaw produces this year - he was going backwards over the past two years - will he be able to stop the slide? 

 Saffex

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11259 RE: Marcel Coetzee - this is going to hurt Mozart badly
February 11, 2015, 22:58:58 Coetzee is twice the 6 Schalk ever was. Coetzee has produced the goods in tests already so a WC will be no different.
Coetzee is a class act, the S15 will prove that.

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 No, Saffex.....I was joking !!! In light of your comments about Chris Robshaw, I felt it was an amusing situation.....now you know how I feel !! 

Bloddy hell. This Coetzee chappy is just about two steps behind Superman, by the looks of it. We do not know how lucky weare to have him.


1 X Coetzee = 2 X Schalk Burgers (in his prime, even)
1 X Coetzee = 6 X Robshaws

I do not understand why we are worrying about the RWC with Coetzee in the team. If we had too face England and England have Robshaw in their team and we have Coetzee it will be grossly unfair towards England. It will be 19 players on the field against 15.

Give me Coetzee over Schalk anyday 

 Oh no, Ceradyne....if England have to face SA ever it is grossly unfair because you are all truly Gods of Men. Haven't we already had this conversation thousands of times ? And by we I don't me you and I, I mean that in a generalised way, before you tell me otherwise ! 

 Fourie Du Preez and Habana are the only ones from the 2007 RWC that belong in the Bok squad. Not one SA scrumhalf can match his passing and his genius, he knows exactly when to choose the play whether it's kicking, passing to a forward to get over the gainline or start a backline move. 

 But that MOM against us was a load of rubbish ! Hardly deserved, now was it ? ! 

Well a Pom did award it, so it runs the risk of being a load of rubbish....but given how he cleverly made the winning try with one Bok off the park, we have a miracle here, the Pom got it right! 

 Agreed 100% on Du Preez, Shezza.

You are much insulted....ever thought that the mote might be in your eye?

 The Boks, like WP is sometimes unconventional with their loosies. Bismarck and Vermeulen  helps with the fetching, so instead of open and blindside,  we have left and right flankers The numbers on the jerseys are just numbers. SKHULK still has incredible work rate, and he can link with the backline with some good passes. Coetzee is also a good player, but  his game lacks the depth of Burger's, but his youthful energy makes up for that. Difficult to choose between them. Would like to see both on the pitch each game, I don't mind who start and who sits on the bench. 

 "Difficult to choose between them. Would like to see both on the pitch each game, I don't mind who start and who sits on the bench."

I have never been the biggest Schalk fan around, Draad, but you seem to have missed the core part of Saff's remark, which was what caught my eye. This......:

"Coetzee is twice the 6 Schalk ever was. Coetzee has produced the goods in tests already so a WC will be no different."

There is just no way that Coetzee is currently even near what Schalk EVER was, let alone twice t he 6 that he ever was.

 IRB player of the year in the same position as McC in is prime? Saffex  gets over enthusiastic.  Scalla was out for more than 2 years and hits the deck running almost immediately. ! There is still a lot of rugby left in him. I hope he stays fit this year.

 Oops...lag.

 Mozart
Where did you get this idea from which you stated in the following:-
"Still, in spite of the hype on the Board Victor was not a weakness last year "
People who do not recognise Matfield's serious decline in line out takes, his weak process tackling, his inability to contribute to carrying of balls in traffic and the way he is pushed out of the way by opposing players - must be blind.   
All that is not removed because "he adds as much rugby IQ as F du Preez".   What rugby IQ are you talking about?   If he cannot perform his functions as a Tight 5 team member  - of what value  ia his so-called rugby IQ?
Sorry  to disagree but your statement in regard to Matfield is unadulterated imaginary crap.   

 Mozart...the world is run by men sucking up to one another. This was yet another case of that.Very often the MOM is anything but. 

 Ag becs, this is rugga and although there are a lot of politics involved, MOM awards are normally without the bitter stuff. 

Mike put it this way, Victor is smart enough not to be bundled into touch by a flyhalf with the strong chance of an away win over the All Blacks a metre away.