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FORUM / RUGBY /  Massive uncertainties for the Boks....

Massive uncertainties for the Boks....

Started by Mozart17 REPLIES489 VIEWS· 15 Jun 2015, 14:25
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jun 2015, 14:25
#1
15 Jun 2015, 14:25#1

....on the wing, at centre, at scrumhalf, at tighthead, on the flanks. There are some good players but hardly an established incuumbent that isn't at risk. When an incuumbent is at risk one has uncertainty....by definition.

 

 

So we enter this RWC year with less clarity than any year going all the way back to 1995. The lead up games will be crucial to establish a back three partnership, a centre partnership......hell, a defined playing style.

 

 

 

Pundits were pretty sanguine about our losses to Ireland and Wales. But truth to tell we were outplayed in both those games. Sure Hougaard made crucial mistakes at the end and we received a very dubious yellow card against Wales. But we were already behind and being outplayed.

 

 

 

HM is going to be making some crucial decisions very early. I hope he makes the right ones.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
15 Jun 2015, 14:59
#2
15 Jun 2015, 14:59#2

Disagree, we are better placed than ever in every position.....we just don't have the coach to direct them.


We have at least 3 test standard players in EVER position......some of which are the best in the game  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jun 2015, 15:39
#3
15 Jun 2015, 15:39#3
Only Vermeulen and Etzebeth have an argument to be considered best in the game.  
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
15 Jun 2015, 16:09
#4
15 Jun 2015, 16:09#4
Saff, who are our 3 test standard outside centres? 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Jun 2015, 16:18
#5
15 Jun 2015, 16:18#5
 You left out the number 5 lock position.   Matfield's performances deteriorated as Super 15 progressed and his last game he played in he was putrid.  So the number 5 lock is also in question.
Dave is right - there are a number of players in each position that would walk into other international teams in the Top 6 rated teams in world rugby.   He may not identify the players correctly - but they have been top performers in Super 15 in their various positions, outperforming by some distance all competitors in the SH.
The situation is not as bad as you think it is and I feel more positive about certain players you constantly degrade than I feel about some of the oldies who should have been replaced already.
Looking at it - there are 8 established Boks - with 3 certain replacements - making a total of 11 players - with only 4 positions which could be debatable.        
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
15 Jun 2015, 16:20
#6
15 Jun 2015, 16:20#6
No. 13?????
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
15 Jun 2015, 16:26
#7
15 Jun 2015, 16:26#7
The following are all good enough to play 13 for SA.......de Allende, JJ, Vorster, Mapoe, Frans Venter, Taute, v/Wyk  and Jessie Kriel 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Jun 2015, 18:57
#8
15 Jun 2015, 18:57#8

Let  me summarize those options

 

1) De Allende a great attacking option, but an erratic defender, strong in contact but not secure, witness his low tackling success rate.

 

2) JJ a timid player who lost the 2013 TN....does almost nothing week after week.

 

3) Vorster a decent youngster but my guesss is just below test standard....has no weapons to hurt big defences.

 

4) Mapoe, horribly shown up by Ashley Cooper.....a decent S15 player that will have good days......not a test option.

 

5) Venter....same answer as Vorster.

 

 

6) Taute....slow and predictable....not even S15 standard.

 

6) Van Wyk.....you can't be serious.

 

7) Kriel the only potential test quality player apart from de Allende. But we really dont know how effective he will be if shifted to 13....it's a guess.

 

 

So in fact we dont have one automatic choice at 13, just various degrees of speculation.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Jun 2015, 00:12
#9
16 Jun 2015, 00:12#9
 Mozart
Your talk about De Allende is an attack on him as a defender and yet the player you promote has even a worse defense record.   I think that in essence De Allende is the best attacking backline player we have and none of his missed tackles have ever been critical in outcome.   
However back to my original suggestion - we have 8 players whose selection cannot be doubted.   Those include the following:-
15.   Willie le Roux11    Bryan Habana10    Handre Pollard 8    Duane Vermeulen 7    Francois Louw 4    Eben Etzebeth 2    Bismarck du Plessis 1    Tendai Mtawarire
All of the above has played well in Super 15 and the European competition and there are no real question marks about them.
Then we have 3 other players whose performances in Super Rugby makes their selections absolutely clear.   They are -
12    Damian de Allende 6    Jaco Kriel 3    Frans Malherbe
If Jean de Villiers is back, then the option is to move De Allende to 13.   There is close competition between Kriel and Marcel Coetzee for the no 6 position.   
That leaves problems with the following four positions:-
14, 13, 9, 5
No 14    
Hendricks is good in attack - but a serious liability in defense.   Combrinck was the one impressive wing this season and other potential contenders are Hougaard,  Senatla and Van Wyk.  I would have no problem if Combrinck is selected to start on the wing.
JP Pietersen is not pacy enough to be a wing anymore and he definitely is no center. 
No 13
There are three contenders here - namely De Allende (if not playing at 12), Serfontein and Vorster.
I first want to comment about what you wrote about Vorster:-
"Vorster a decent youngster but my guesss is just below test standard....has no weapons to hurt big defences."

You are entitled to your guess - but are you in fact correct about your guess?   On what is your guess based - what facts can you produce to substantiate your guess?   Where you are actually talking crap is "has no weapons to hurt big defences."   That really is a general statement with no factual substance.  Studying the Super 15 - Vorster has repeatedly beaten some of the strongest Aussie and NZ defenders - so where that that statement come from.
Serfontein has dome reasonably well in the tests he played at 13 last year - his defense was sound - but he is not a strong attacking player and that is why he should probably play at 13.

No 9
I have reservations about Du Preez - somehow I think he is not going to make the grade in the RC and may be out of the picture by the time the WC comes around.   Pienaar is way past it.
So the options are down to Reinach and De Klerk.  Hougaard may also come into the picture.
No 5 
Matfield is no option - we need a tight 5 lock - not a passenger.  Matfield got worse and worse in every Super 15 game he played in - his last performance was a joke in bad taste.
So we are down to Du Toit, Mostert, Du Plessis or Willemse.   Neither of those four players will let the team down and they would be a vast improvement on Matfield.
We have enough viable options to field a good bench as well.   
Meyer unfortunately fiddled around for far too long with players who was below par last year and worse this year.    If he bit the bullet and bring some of the above into the starting line up there would not have been uncertainties encountered at present.
Back to my team and it would look like the following:-
15.   Willie le Roux          -     25 caps14    Ruan Combrick13.   Harold Vorster12    Damian de Allende   -       3 caps11    Bryan Habana         -    108 caps10    Handre Pollard        -       9 caps 9    Cobus Reinach        -        6 caps 8    Duane Vermeulen    -       29 Caps
 7    Francois Louw        -       34 caps 6    Jaco Kriel 5    Pieter-Steph du Toit -       1 cap 4    Eben Etzebeth         -      33 caps 3    Frans Malherbe        -       4 caps 2    Bismarck du Plessis  -       72 caps 1    Tendai Mtawarire    -       64 caps
That would mean three uncapped selections - even  though 5 players will have less than 10 caps.    The total number of caps would be 389.   
Meyer should  use the above players in the RC and see how they shape up.            
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Jun 2015, 00:12
#10
16 Jun 2015, 00:12#10
Duplication       
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
16 Jun 2015, 00:27
#11
16 Jun 2015, 00:27#11
 Funny how both De Jongh and De Allende are deemed weak defenders according to their stats, yet the Stormers are one of the better defending teams? Might have something to with their defensive system?
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Jun 2015, 00:56
#12
16 Jun 2015, 00:56#12
Actually I think it's a different scenario for each. Damien is powerful once he has good contact....he seems to be too easily stepped though. De Jongh does a lot of aggressive tackling....what they call the forecheck in ice hockey, stopping  the man deep behind the advantage line. This is inherently a harder tackle in more space than the process tackles in the defensive line.
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
16 Jun 2015, 10:14
#13
16 Jun 2015, 10:14#13
Maybe they should consult the "experts" in SA with traditional "healing" abilities...

Wake up Saffas...tired of getting klapped

https://youtu.be/ba37g0xgrTs

This is funny...some of these clowns are claiming professional status

https://youtu.be/ba37g0xgrTs


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Jun 2015, 11:02
#14
16 Jun 2015, 11:02#14
 Mozart
This myth about De Jongh making aggressive tackles has been around for years to justify the high missed tackle ratio of De Jongh.   Problem is he gets run over more than most outside centers and that remains a serious issue in this regard.  
If anybody does make process tackles it is De Jongh - he is physically too weak to make aggressiver strong tackles.    However, when up against a strong attacking player De Jongh goes missing and is not there to defend.  That was exactly what happened when he played opposite Vorster - he was missing and Vorster broke the line and beat numerous tackles.
In the meantime the idea that De Allende gets stepped is a myth.  Studying his missed tackles - it is clear that 90% of his missed tackles happens "in traffic when he goes high and the player slipped his tackle to be tackled by the next player.    None of the top centers like SB Williams, Nonu, Kerevi, etc beat De Allende by stepping him as claimed by you.
The effect of missed tackles by De Allende is minimal - whereas in the cases of players like De Jongh and Steyn it normally leads to scoring of tries.          
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
16 Jun 2015, 12:28
#15
16 Jun 2015, 12:28#15
I agree talent is not the problem. The problem is brain power. Will the coach select the right players (How many quota players will weaken the squad is another issue), and implement a decent game plan. I fear M eyer is stuck in a time warp. 
Meyer unfortunately wasted at least a year by faffing about. His last chance is the RC. 
The Money man thinks we will win the RWC see my post. if Meyer gets it right we should.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
16 Jun 2015, 12:35
#16
16 Jun 2015, 12:35#16
 We have plenty of centers:Jean,(if fit) Allende, Vorster, Odendaal, Serfontein, Mapoe and Venter. Last year Stokkies Hanekom was looking very good and Sadie is an underrated player. Hanekom is back but too late to show what he can do.I have little doubt that Kriel could make a very good center. 
JJ belongs on the wing and will make a very good wing.
We are well covered in all positions but Meyer is the concern along with the effect of quotas.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Jun 2015, 14:31
#17
16 Jun 2015, 14:31#17

You chaps can continue to believe these bog ordinary S15 centres are going to be competitive against the top Oz and NZ centres.....I'm afraid if they are played you will be disappointed. Let's look at our history since the last WC:

 

Taute....failed

 

JJ ....failed

 

 

Stepfontein....place holder who is toothless

 

 

De Allende.....failed at the first attempt

 

 

That's the truth, even though it makes posters uncomfortable. Why would the even less talented Vorster, Venter and Mapoe suddenly become world beaters. It's not going to happen.

 

 

 

The only young back that looked like he was going to succeed and did, is Handre Pollard. That was pretty obvious if you had some rugby experience. Our other success was Willie a more developed player, almost totally overlooked in the team of the future selections.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Jun 2015, 16:01
#18
16 Jun 2015, 16:01#18
 Really Mozart
Your idea about failure is a real balls-up.    De Allende played in his first game in the most atrocious weather conditions possible.   He was the only backline player who made any carries of consequence and prevented the Argies from scoring a try when Morne did his normal and tried to donate a win to the Argentinians.    
That does not represent failure - so what is the basis for claiming he failed in his first attempt?     
— END OF THREAD —

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