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FORUM / RUGBY /  Mitchell fingers Koch not Poiete

Mitchell fingers Koch not Poiete

Started by Mozart32 REPLIES665 VIEWS· 14 Aug 2015, 04:12
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Aug 2015, 04:12
#1
14 Aug 2015, 04:12#1
Lots of spin this week blaming Poite for our scrum against the Bargies. Here you have a pro making several good points..we are too high, the tighthead has to be able to take the pressure, the angles in the Bok scrun are inconsistent, the Bargies pulse as one.

The scrum battle was also influential in the match between the Springboks and Argentina in Durban, where Bok tighthead Vincent Koch was heavily penalised by French referee Romain Poite.

Koch’s elbow hit the ground and he seemed to be the first player to go down. He should straighten up and learn to take his loosehead out. The non-negotiables for effective tight forward play are: keep shoulders below hips, elbows pointing down, and find a way to build pressure earlier through your bind.

While we could debate aspects of Argentina’s scrum legality ad nauseam, the bottom line is that they are extremely proficient at the set-piece. The Pumas work together as a collective and transfer plenty of weight through their hooker, Agustin Creevy.

In contrast, the Springboks’ scrum site is too high and they need to learn to sink their knees into a favourable position: when you go low, you can put your weight through and endure that pressure for longer. However, once you’re up, there is no way you can go back down. The knee angles of the Springbok back five are actually quite inconsistent, whereas the Argentinian scrum has appeared totally in sync in terms of its endurance post-engagement.

The question that needs to be asked is whether scrummaging will be more important at the World Cup than catch-and-pass rugby, especially if there is a northern hemisphere referee in charge.

Southern hemisphere referees by and large regard the scrum set-piece as more of a starting point and, as such, only award penalties when it is clear and obvious.

Northern referees reward teams that can achieve scrum dominance because they consider it a sign of positional weakness.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Aug 2015, 04:36
#2
14 Aug 2015, 04:36#2
Mitchell is correct in his assessment of the situation and the fiasco that happened last Saturday was also clearly in evidence last year.  Our props have also faced something both years and that was lack of support from the hooker to off-set Creecy's assistance he gives to the scrumming of his props.
The Aussies did struggle with the scrumming - but still got enough clean balls to their backline through mauls and quick ball recovery, two aspects where our loosies and other let us down last Saturday.
lthough Koch was the weaker scrumming prop - Beast was not much better either.  So the problem was not at all dealt with satisfactorily.  I do believe that the problem may be even worse this week, with both props going to have serious problems.  Koch is probably a better scrummer than Van der Merwe if the Super 15 performances are borne in mind.  
A further problem this week will be the insufficient support  Matfield provides in scrumming - that is going to worsen the situation substantially.            
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
14 Aug 2015, 06:15
#3
14 Aug 2015, 06:15#3
  Keep Koch, bin Poite!



Yes Vincent Koch took a hammering, but Romain Poite’s performance in Durban was far worse, says Tank Lanning.


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
14 Aug 2015, 07:51
#4
14 Aug 2015, 07:51#4
Thanks Bob bTank was a prop. Pieter De Billiers a test prop for France with huge experience.  De Villiers is sending in a formal query re Poite iro the illegal Argie sc ruming that also saw Jannie going up and back at great speed. Koch did better than Jannie in the circumstsnces. Then if one has a oair if eyes it is blatantly obvious that the argie loosehesd is scrumming inwards. 
Fit a cork Mitchie a little knowledge paraded like this is dangerous and clearly has led a few oaks astray. All sympathies to Koch and the Boks having to lose another test via a very poor ref.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
14 Aug 2015, 07:54
#5
14 Aug 2015, 07:54#5
 If you cant for some reason see what happened rather believe two very experienced PROPS. Beeno, Tank and De Villiers on the same page. Case closed.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Aug 2015, 13:50
#6
14 Aug 2015, 13:50#6

I can see what happened to Koch....the same thing that happened when he played Ben Robinson. He got hammered. Is that permanent? Is he always going to be a potential liability in big test scrums? Probably.

 

The evidence about our backup tightheads is not confined to the Bargie tests. We had a long S15 and two other tests before last week.

 

 

What emerged is that Koch tends to crack when real power is applied. Marcel pops out of the scrum and then pushes from the belly. And Malherbe is either going forward if he can dominate his opponent or is a big risk to fall flat.

 

 

Not one of these three have figured out how to stay functional in a scrum under pressure.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Aug 2015, 14:35
#7
14 Aug 2015, 14:35#7
 This is absolute crap again.  Dr Goebbels cannot help himself.  Why for a change keep lying - but then I suppose you cannot help it.   The Stormers dominate in scrumming in all the games in Super 15 Kitshoff and Malherbe played in - the falling flat did just not happen.   You are talking crap all the time - so you really are the biggest joke around.  Why don't you write about the role of Jannie in this years Super 15 and what happened in his case?  That you will never do in an honest manner - but you criticize other players in a dishonest manner.  
The worst scrumming other than Koch and Beast against the Argentinians - was Jannie and Steenkamp and Jannie and Beast against the same team.   However, the joke of the century is that Jannie  manages the scrumming well when in full retreat in scrumming as stated by you elsewhere.  Another real joke of vast magnitude - I nearly wet myself when I read that one!!!!!!!LMAO     
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Aug 2015, 14:50
#8
14 Aug 2015, 14:50#8
In Malherbe's case I am talking about the Aussie test perv. Note the sentence construction bird brain.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Aug 2015, 14:52
#9
14 Aug 2015, 14:52#9

Say Perv. There are products for older chaps like you who "wet themselves". No need to skulk at home. You can avoid embarrassment with an adult nappie.

 

 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
14 Aug 2015, 15:47
#10
14 Aug 2015, 15:47#10
 The good Dr Mozzz has floored himself. Jannie who in truth is a solid scummsger did far worse against the illegal argies scrum. Never ever seen a prop go backwards as fast. Koch was turned inwards by right angle scrumming. Then penalised!!!! ! BWHAHAHAHAHAHA Moz best accept the verdict of Tank, De Villiers and Beeno. Amounts to overwhelming opinion!
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Aug 2015, 15:53
#11
14 Aug 2015, 15:53#11
There is the truth ...Jannie went backwards. But he didn't fall, twist inside or pop out. The whole Bok scrum was fractured by the Bargie pulse and Lomp couldn't provide the support Jannie needed.
In the case of Koch he cracked taking the pressure. These fools commenting on scrumming can't even discern the difference between the scrum as a whole going backwards and the front row splintering. There is very little insight from Tank and none from HasBeen.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Aug 2015, 16:29
#12
14 Aug 2015, 16:29#12
Dr Goebbels
The lies keep flowing.  Malherbe never went down in any of the scrums and toi start off he was the one that put the wheels under the Aussie forwards in the first half.  In the second half the problem was on the loosehead side of the scrum - but you twisted it around and made out that Malherbe went down in the scrums - he never did.  Van der Merwe was the one that did.
Nobody went back faster than Jannie did - he did one thing well - he did not fall backwards in the process showing that he showed no resistance and went back at speed instead.  
What is worse - a scrum retreating at speed or one where the props went down?  Nothing much - the result normally is the same - a penalty to the opposition and/or a ball possession gain by the opposition.   In no case can the props be credited for the speed reverse ahead of the scrum going down - both are bad shows.   So the fact that you credit for Jannie when scrumming badly is a joke.   I have never before seen such a cover-up for bad performance as you tried to do here.
     


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Aug 2015, 03:01
#13
15 Aug 2015, 03:01#13
Rubbish. All the problems against Oz were on the tighthead side once Jannie left. You and Dave tried to divert blame away from Malherbe by fingering Heinke. It didn't fool anyone. Sio totally dominated Malherbe.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Aug 2015, 06:28
#14
15 Aug 2015, 06:28#14
 Dr Goebbels
Will you ever stop lying?  I suppose not - it is an in-borne disease in your case.   You must be really desperate to keep on lying about it - the problem was on the side of Heinke van der Merwe - who was penalized for it also.  
However, you are always  in the habit of lying about issues when you do not like players and the same applies when players you like make bugger-ups - so whats the use of discussing that situation with you?         
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
15 Aug 2015, 07:31
#15
15 Aug 2015, 07:31#15
 Interesting read, it is very seldom we read anything technical on scrummaging and I think that highlights a problem in SA: We've fallen behind on the advancements in this facet. It seems to me that SA has this arrogance based on dominance several decades ago, and is now too stubborn to learn. It's simply shocking how many fatties we produce who cannot scrum. Once Jannie retires, we are screwed! What these geniuses are struggling to understand is that though Jannie is not perfect - I have certainly noted his weaknesses - he hgas allowed us to build a scrum that is functional enough to compete beyond itself. The many new options have been brutally exposed from the get go. And I don't buy this nonsense that they've done well at Super level, our scrums are traditionally destroyed at Super rugby level. The vonly exception were the Sharks under Jake and the Stormers last year. Both trained to play well as a combined effort, not so much individuals.
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
15 Aug 2015, 07:59
#16
15 Aug 2015, 07:59#16
Well I know sweet f.a. about frontrow battles, even less when viewing events via tv (although Oz recently gave us fantastic overhead shots in the Sydney test where you could see Woodocok scrumming in etc & having Phil Kearns's accompanying comments was a bonus) but I'll go with Tank's interpretation .

How Koch's international career pans out is unknown, but jislaaik, in appearance the oak looks to the ( prop) manor born .
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
15 Aug 2015, 08:15
#17
15 Aug 2015, 08:15#17
 Hahahahahaha hilarious. the 127 kg Lomp couldnt provide the support but we can be assured the feeble wee matfiled at 105 kg can - oops I forhot wee amtfield was switch to scrumming on the loosehaed as it was recognised he was a non entity in the scrumming stakes!!   
Koch didt go backwards like Jannie but was turned inwards by the argies loosehead scrumming inwards illegally - ala the wyatt crooked mode.Dr Mozzzz in a complete spin on the issue!
Moz take it from two experienced props one a distinguished international who has made a formal enquiry as to the refs interpretation.
Oaks lets support our players and team when they are being crooked out. To do otherwise is very lame. Its what supporters normally do. Follow the fine example set by Beeno and you cant go wrong.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
15 Aug 2015, 08:28
#18
15 Aug 2015, 08:28#18
 Jannie going backwards against the Argies Mike had nothing to do with poor pefromance it had everything to do with illegal scrumming as protested by John Smit and others!!!This has never happened to Jannie before or since.Get real we are dealing with ILLEGAL SCRUMMING AS TANK AND DE VILLIERS KNOW - ABLY SU PPORTED BY BEENO.
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
15 Aug 2015, 08:30
#19
15 Aug 2015, 08:30#19
 Beano, have you watched any rugby this year ..... if its not empire building, its the mother in law or tennis .
KA
KalaedFreddieClub Pro495 posts
15 Aug 2015, 08:37
#20
15 Aug 2015, 08:37#20
 For those guys who have not played in the "pack".  There is a lot of funnybusiness, some call it skulduggery going on inside there.  I am not convinced that the referees understand or check for all these aspects.
Every team has certain "clever" strategies.  The All Blacks find a very small space of no-mans-land just before the off-side line and they play on that edge and sometimes they stray over but by that time the referee is convinced they are on-side.
The Argentine have always been masters at camouflaging the illegal stuff in the pack.  There is a good case for them scrumming inwards while pulling down the opposition.
They cal the flag man an assistant referee these days but he justs assists in confusing the issues.  They seldom get involved when it is clear that the referee is unsighted and on the other side of the scrum while on this side the crime is being committed.  
I still think Koch is short of a year or two experience so he is not bad, just a little inexperienced still, he will learn.
Beeno1 is correct that the success of a frontrow is much dependent on the effectiveness of his lock and his flank for keeping his a$$ in a straight line.  Here we may always have a problem when the likes of Matfield and Brussouw play on the same side the front row guy will never be successful.  Daais waar my broer!
Salaam!  
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
15 Aug 2015, 08:47
#21
15 Aug 2015, 08:47#21
 Ja but Matfield wouldn't have been fooled by St. Richie's se skelm draai vir 'n try .

Hoezit cuzzy KF, langtyd no see .
KA
KalaedFreddieClub Pro495 posts
15 Aug 2015, 09:02
#22
15 Aug 2015, 09:02#22
 Uncle, the weekend is mostly the only time I can like post because there in the veld the signal is weak like moswyn. But the wife is fixing up so we will go to the shops.  My friend says his wife dreams at night she married a millionaire, fok my problem is my wife dreams that in the day, nê.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Aug 2015, 14:32
#23
15 Aug 2015, 14:32#23

Freddie I don't think Matfield and Brussouw have been on together for many years....today will be a test. But Matfield scrums behind the loosehead, almost inevitably. Last year the Pervert was saying our tighthead problems against the Bargies was Victor's fault....until I pointed this out to him.....he never corrected the record.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
15 Aug 2015, 14:50
#24
15 Aug 2015, 14:50#24
 So Moz,  how many times did Koch's elbow hit the ground?  And how much did he go down? 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Aug 2015, 14:58
#25
15 Aug 2015, 14:58#25

I give up with you guys. It was obvious before the test Koch was going to be the target. We should have been prepared. What happened was we never had good "talking points" on the field...and Koch was in trouble in every scrum. He was simply not able to take the pressure. If he plays for us at the WC every NH loosehead will be licking their chops to have a crack at him.

 

 

He looks like a prop, plays well in the loose, has scrummed well within a dominant Stormers scrum....but was simply unable to deal with the Bargies. Accept it and move on....I happened to be right, but I take no pleasure in it.  

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Aug 2015, 15:01
#26
15 Aug 2015, 15:01#26
 Dr Goebbels
Where he scrummed made no difference.  Matfield is the reason why we have lost our competitiveness in Tight 5 play.   Why don't you think about the reason for our string of losses since last year against Australia and the poor performance of Matfield in three of the tests we actually won.  There is a thread dealing with Matfield's record over the past 14 months and it was clear that his presence in the team is a serious liability.
The three tests we won despite despite Matfield's presence were 
*   the second test in June last year where the Welsh forwards got the upper hand;
*   the Ellis Park test against the All Blacks where an atrocious line-out loss donated a try to the AB's and only a miracle penalty conversion put the Springboks in the lead; and
*   an atrocious display by Matfield ending up in a yellow card for Matfield in the English test.
The sooner that guy is out of our Tight 5 - the sooner we will become competitive in forward play.
What Brussow and Matfield has to do with the issue is a mystery to me.  Brussow tries and recover balls at breakdowns while Matfield moonlights in the backline making no contribution to forward play.  Matfield is useless in scrums as well and Brussow is not a tower of strength either.   
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Aug 2015, 17:22
#27
15 Aug 2015, 17:22#27
Dumbass read the thread, perhaps you might be capable on grasping that I never raised the Matfield/ Brussouw point...Freddie did. It's disrespectful to other posters to only read my postings hoping to make some silly point.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
15 Aug 2015, 17:45
#28
15 Aug 2015, 17:45#28
 Moz,  I'm  not saying he wasn't  bad,  I'm  just saying he seems to be best of the rest.  Throwing him away now won't  help any. 
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
15 Aug 2015, 17:57
#29
15 Aug 2015, 17:57#29
 True Draad, but throwing Jannie away for him is also bad.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
15 Aug 2015, 18:10
#30
15 Aug 2015, 18:10#30
 Never said Jannie should be discarded.  I want the best second 3 to start as much games as possible.  Jannie did better than I thought he would,  but in my opinion Koch is still the best of the rest. He should have started tonight.  Malherbe should be the backup and Marcell should not be there... at all.  Good player,  but not all there yet.  Nothing against him.  I know his father and one ofhos brothers,  but I don't think he has done enough to be a bok... just as i don't think Malherbe is not there yet.  Koch is our best second prospect... with Trevor our third choice TH,  but he should actually be our first choice LH after Beast. 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Aug 2015, 18:27
#31
15 Aug 2015, 18:27#31
To be honest Draad, I'm not sure who the best back up tighthead is. At test level I think Coenie has been marginally better...but his neck is a major liability. Of the rest it's a very hard choice. Before Oz I would have said Malherbe....but he failed badly in that match. Perhaps  today we will get some more scoop. 
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
15 Aug 2015, 18:33
#32
15 Aug 2015, 18:33#32
 Coeinie is a very effective ball carrier, as you say that neck does put a dampender on his selection. Pity. 
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
15 Aug 2015, 18:56
#33
15 Aug 2015, 18:56#33
 Coenie is not a 3.  At test level he is a bench option at best. 
— END OF THREAD —

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