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No expert, just a simple question???

Started by MonsterBok32 REPLIES497 VIEWS· 20 Jul 2015, 03:54
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MO
MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
20 Jul 2015, 03:54
#1
20 Jul 2015, 03:54#1

I always thought that the purpose of an up and under was, among other reasons, to place pressure on the opposition and to compete in the air for the ball. Now, this appears to be the case with all other rugby playing nations but not the Boks, there's no intensity.

I also fail to understand WHY would you continuously kick at the best player in the world under the high ball (Folau). As much as I do not like Ruan, I cannot believe that he is that shyt that he continues to do so. 

I ask this question with real interest.

DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
20 Jul 2015, 03:59
#2
20 Jul 2015, 03:59#2
 The tactic to kick at Folau is a good one. He has been heavily exposed by the top test nations and in Super rugby. The execution however left a lot to be desired. Look at the Brisbane test of 2013 for an excellent example of good execution, or the Waratahs playoff loss. Our chasers were not good in the air. Aside from Habana nobody exerted pressure and the kicks were not execute or placed well. The Boks looked hesitant in kicking and it was clear they had a run first mentality out there. Du Preez will bolster our tractical kicking game immeasurably.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Jul 2015, 04:15
#3
20 Jul 2015, 04:15#3
Monsterbok
Welcome to the site.   You will soon realize that we have some twisted individuals on this site - that comes up with the weirdest rubbish imaginable  like Folau being exposed under the high ball.  Folau indeed was "exposed" as the best at present in the game under high balls - but Desert Disaster is too stupid to realize that.
The kicking game was piss-poor since it was directed at Folau who took the ball and played the fool with the Springboks who followed up the ball.   What was worse is that the kicking carried on after it became clear that the tactic was a disaster.  I agree with you on the issue and cannot argue about your point of view on the issue.
What also upset me was that the players who followed up the kicks - and especially Pietersen got to the point where Folau caught the balls and froze up completely - that made the game so easy for Folau - no pressure at all applied in those cases.       
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
20 Jul 2015, 04:28
#4
20 Jul 2015, 04:28#4
 Actually, Australia are weak in aerial combat. Hence why their opponents right down to Super level are targeting them there. It was how both Aussie franchises got dumped out of the playoffs and why Australias win record is dire at presented. Folau has been criticized in Australia for getting isolated, his poor kicking out of hand and poor handling. Note in last years game in Australia, Folau fluffed five kicks and setup a Bok lineout on or inside the Aussie 22m line from all of those kicks. He is a mixed bag. In other games he has a penchant for being turned over or getting isolated. His only success on the weekend was essentially running at Damian. Folau is not the focal point of the Wallabies. Everything hinges on Toomua and, especially, Kuridrani. They are purely a running team, not equipped for aerial battles. Watch what New Zealand does to them.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Jul 2015, 04:35
#5
20 Jul 2015, 04:35#5
 

"What also upset me was that the players who followed up the kicks - and especially Pietersen got to the point where Folau caught the balls and froze up completely - that made the game so easy for Folau - no pressure at all applied in those cases." 
So as Fox says, the execution was poor.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Jul 2015, 04:41
#6
20 Jul 2015, 04:41#6
 Mozart
The execution was poor - nobody argues about that.  However, to continue with a failed plan is stupid and showed that there was a definite instruction at halftime to go that way.  

DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
20 Jul 2015, 04:43
#7
20 Jul 2015, 04:43#7
 Actually the Boks did not kick enough, they forced too many runs and paid the price as they played almost the entire second half in their half defending! The only real change came from Australia.
MO
MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
20 Jul 2015, 07:05
#8
20 Jul 2015, 07:05#8
There's a fair amount of hate on this forum. Not sure how long I'll last.I coach U11's which is pretty piss poor in comparison to test level obviously. I dont know if it's just me but if my kicker kicked off to the fastest biggest most damaging player in the opposition once, I'd hope he would have learnt from it, a second time I would communicate with him and ensure he understood. A third time I would shoot the little f#&k. 

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
20 Jul 2015, 07:25
#9
20 Jul 2015, 07:25#9
 MonsterBok: welcome to the board. Don't be put off by the rough & tumble banter you don't have to participate in that but can have your own style - it's up to you. Underneath the niggle there is occasionally a good point about rugby here and there
MO
MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
20 Jul 2015, 07:40
#10
20 Jul 2015, 07:40#10
 Thanks mate! South Africa were forced to make some early changes they didnt bank on, hence the second half collapse. Matfield sux, but losing him so early on definitely in my opinion added to the downward spiral as we didnt have a fresh 2nd rower. I like Stauss but he was nowhere. Marcel injured and Pocock on the field, well!  
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
20 Jul 2015, 07:52
#11
20 Jul 2015, 07:52#11
It was the coaches tactics and was so stupud to keep kicking away posituon like that. Brainless stuff that is so pathetic it is staggering. As Mike says to keep doing was sheer madness. All and sundry have picked up on this lunacy. The acclaim for Allende, Kriel and Llidt has been overwhelming.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
20 Jul 2015, 09:06
#12
20 Jul 2015, 09:06#12
 Monster ignore Fox he is clueless....you are correct why kick away hard earned possession only to gift the oposition the ball, especially when the recipient happens to be one of the best attacking players in the game.
It's the Meyer way - he is useless and that would be the answer to your question
MO
MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
20 Jul 2015, 09:16
#13
20 Jul 2015, 09:16#13
Saffex,It's too easy to come to that conclusion. This isn't the first time. Even though I have a dislike for the bloke I somewhat refuse to believe even he is that thick. Is it match fixing or what? 
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
20 Jul 2015, 09:21
#14
20 Jul 2015, 09:21#14
MonsterBok: you may get some unsolicited irrational ravings from Beeno on match fixing and the like. My advice is ignore him but in a kindly way. He means harm but is harmless. 
The players take this game too seriously to be engaged in match fixing and the refs are under scrutiny. True that every game has some plays that could go either way but all players & coaches know this so they try to take the ref out of it by piling on the points. If there was match fixing you would think SA would be more than capable of participating.
In the game on Saturday the Bok threw the game away there was no need for skulduggery.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
20 Jul 2015, 09:23
#15
20 Jul 2015, 09:23#15
No believe me he is that thick....he can't select and he thinks the game is won by gifting the ball to the opposition in the hope they make mistakes.
The idea of actually running the ball with the likes of Willie, de Allende and Kriel on board escapes him as does playing in form speedy youngsters out wide or an attacking minded 9.
Instead let's just kick the crap out of the ball and hope for the best - it's the Meyer way.
Next week we will be kicking the ball onto Smith and Savea.....heaven help us.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
20 Jul 2015, 09:27
#16
20 Jul 2015, 09:27#16
 Saffex, I agree that the tactic should have been using the outside backs to keep the ball longer, get territory and go for tries. Sitting on a lead is risky.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
20 Jul 2015, 09:32
#17
20 Jul 2015, 09:32#17
 Yep Oz played the rugby we did not.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 Jul 2015, 09:33
#18
20 Jul 2015, 09:33#18
 There is a very good point to be made for tactical kicking.  Look at Cruden's game.  Take away his cross kicks for the outside backs and he is half the player.  The is also a place for an up and under,  or the Gary Owen,  like they like to call it again lately,  but for the love of the game,  why so many UUders?  Where is the variation,  and how many times must we do something that clearly isn't working like intended,  before trying something different.  Even Willie went bonkers with his kicking. It had all to do with the lead.  They were giving Ozz the ball to make mistikes so we could feed of that.  It backfired bigtime.  Almost as stupid as in the QF in the previous RWC. HOPE THEY LEARN FROM THIS! 
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
20 Jul 2015, 09:41
#19
20 Jul 2015, 09:41#19
 The ABs are masters at closing out a game whilst we're now sadly in danger of becoming the leading exponents at gifting games away .
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
20 Jul 2015, 09:55
#20
20 Jul 2015, 09:55#20
Well, at least be thankful that these mistakes are being made now & not against Samoa in the RWC. The errant/stupid/ineffective kicking can be easily fixed. On the subs, surely he will have a better bench in the RWC as he won't be experimenting then.
My take on things is the Boks are not too far off, they are the number 2 team in the world & with some adjustments big improvements will result. 
If the ABs rack up a big win against the Boks this weekend (or even a win in the last minutes of the game) we may be in for some epic wailing, if the Boks win we can expect epic chest-beating Either way it will be epic.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
20 Jul 2015, 09:58
#21
20 Jul 2015, 09:58#21
 Here is Mallet's opinion as published in the NZ Herald
Article
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
20 Jul 2015, 12:29
#22
20 Jul 2015, 12:29#22
 Well, what do I know, eh? But then what do professional rugby coachs no either then? We've only seen Folau struggle being pinned back with kicks for three years now. It's not like it's significant to see Wales, Ireland, England, New Zealand, South Africa, France amongst others profit from it. It's not like the Australian media have been commenting on that. It's not like ex-players such as Burke or World Cup winning coach Dwyer had concerns afer the Waratahs and Brumbies both lost that battle significantly in bheing thumped out of the playoffs. We can all wipe this away and pretend it just doesn't matter. We can also forget how Folau could not clear his lines against in all but the last test. The away test of last year and Brisbane test particularly highlighted the issue with him conceding penalties in run back attempts or setting up Bok lineouts in dangerous mauling territory where we score tries. Lets also forget how much we played in our own half on Saturday. I'm sure we could have run it out and scored plenty of tries, it's as easy as putting one foot in front of the other. And as fans say, if you feel good while doing it and express happiness and freedom the opposition cannot touch you! Stupid Meyer! I mean, New Zealand do it all the time, right? It's not like they have Dagg dominating the air and sending some raking kicks very deep into opposition territory. Yes, aint life grand in make believe world?
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
20 Jul 2015, 13:59
#23
20 Jul 2015, 13:59#23
 I'm no expert either but will try to answer.....
Folau is one of the bests under high balls but his kikcing under pressure is not so good and this is why he was targeted in the last rounds of SR.
He can be targeted as it was proven in those last rounds but is completely indispensable to chase the kick. To target Folau with the kicking and wait to his counterattack is what cannot be made, is suicidal, he's one of the bests ball carriers.
This is exactly what the boks did, kick to him and wait to see what happens. It's impossible to understand that there were many kicks whith not a single player chasing them. And I don't know if this is only coach's fault or the players have also their part of the blame.
If they don't correct this agaist the AB they are going to be hardly punished. Savea, B. Smith and Dagg (or whatever other outside backs combination) alongside Barret or Slade (who both are outstanding organizing counterattacks) can create havoc in the bok defense if this unchased kicks ease them the couterattack
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
20 Jul 2015, 14:20
#24
20 Jul 2015, 14:20#24
 New Zealand dominate teams with aerial strikes and play in your half. Dagg is their key weapon in that regard. But both NZ and SA have been peppering Folau since his debut. And running at him, beating him in space. Like I say, he is not the focal point of that backline. Kuridrani is everything to Australia. It's like how Ireland used to be without BOD.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Jul 2015, 17:17
#25
20 Jul 2015, 17:17#25
 The Desert Fox is brain-dead so one can hardly take note of what he said.  The Springboks should have kicked more - to what end?  
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
20 Jul 2015, 17:32
#26
20 Jul 2015, 17:32#26
 Territory you dolt! What do you really know about rugby anyway? You don't even know the fundamentals. Your dishonesty is just the cherry on a clump of BS.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Jul 2015, 18:17
#27
20 Jul 2015, 18:17#27
 Why kick for territory dolt - when it means you just hand over ball possession to the opposition - dofdoos?   The fact is that your favourite players - the Steyn's are both notoriously inaccurate and aimless  kickers and they would have do their normal - hand over possession to the opposition.   Ever heard of counter-attacks from inaccurate kicking and the kicking on Saturday was inaccurate BS.   Kicking is a variation not the  norm - but with you and your fellow-idiot it is the only game in town.
The argue is not about kicking dunce - it is about the need for accurate and strategic kicking - but you would not know what an accurate strategic kick is - remember your BS about Morne's missed penalty line kick in Perth.   You claimed the miss was good because it was a long kick - never mind handing possession to the Aussies - how stupid can you get?
       
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,282 posts
20 Jul 2015, 18:22
#28
20 Jul 2015, 18:22#28
All of our SuperXV teams play the same game plan, bar the Cheetas. 
Aimless kicks are the order of the day. The Sharks are Stormers have become the Bulls

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
20 Jul 2015, 18:39
#29
20 Jul 2015, 18:39#29
 Lions dont play that way sharkiebok! 
Trouble is our three major unions have been poorly coached. Meyer is an old school coach and is too slow in catching on. Folau looked great under the high ball and ab ass is correct - its Folau's line kicking that is not to great. Kicking down the throat of top backlines is the most stupid thing you can do - especially when trying to close out a game.



DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
20 Jul 2015, 18:45
#30
20 Jul 2015, 18:45#30
 Ki cking as a back three who cannot clear their lines is a perfect ploy. Running back from deep is stupid, hence why Australia have a horrendous win record which barely breaks even the past few years.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 Jul 2015, 20:02
#31
20 Jul 2015, 20:02#31
 Acurate kicking has never been the problem. Shyt kicking on the other hand... 
MO
MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
21 Jul 2015, 03:18
#32
21 Jul 2015, 03:18#32
Foxie,I don't mean any disrespect, but are you Meyers wing man or what? I find some of your post interesting, but in my opinion, there's a fair amount of BS attached.I guess that adds to the flavour on this forum. You pretty much watch any team of substance on the planet and when the ball is deliberately hoofed from the boot at approximately 60 - 80 deg it is done with the intent of giving your attacking mates an equal opportunity of contesting the ball in the air. Now, when you continuously do this without chasers and continuously place those very chasiable (not even a word, but for this exercise lets pretend), not including Willie's few kak kicks, on a player of Izzy's capabilities with the same result over and over again. I'm not an aggressive person but I feel the inclination to reach for a rifle. Like everything in life in general, its the execution and conviction that counts. THE SPRINGBOKKIES DO NOT PLACE ANY PRESSURE ON THEIR KICKS THAT REQUIRE PRESSURE. 
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
21 Jul 2015, 06:00
#33
21 Jul 2015, 06:00#33
 I might have missed something here but I always assumed as cloudy and BP have stated that we targeted anyone other than Folau if possible ,and as BP says when we did it was timed to take him out or pressure him before he could kick or counter attack .G'day Herr MonsterBok ,good to see someone giving their time to teach the young 'uns our game ,Cheers !
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