DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
04 Jan 2015, 18:37#2
Brett Favre, Tom Brady, Ray Lewis... all are still going or went well into their 30s (41 i Favre's case). Take into consideration that front rowers hit their ppeak in their early thirties and you start to have a muddled argument saying 30s is too old. A man only hits physical peak and maturity at around 27, the decline in the 30s is determined by how you lived in your 20s, not merely the result of being in your 30s. 30-34 is a perfectly good age to be playing professional sport. The problem is when your entire team is around the 33 mark, it leaves you only couple of years opportunity to smoothly blend in the next generation. Under Peter we have no development, under Meyer we are feeling the pinch because of the gulf in quality between the seniors and newbies. He has to try and be competitive whilst masking the inadequacies of the youth. That's the only reason the seniors were brought in. It will take a good few years for the next generation to start properly cutting their teeth at senior level.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Jan 2015, 20:57#4
Don'tcha know OOM....did you start early on the cheap wine this afternoon?
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
04 Jan 2015, 21:05#5
Given how poor boxing is in general boxing is hardly the measure. But if we are going to get into boxing then let's talk heavy weights where young Anthony Joshua is by far the best prospect out there and will dominate the division for a few years to come.
Case closed
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
04 Jan 2015, 23:32#8
Oh wow I see vlagshit knows about as much about boxing as he does rugby. Joshua won Olympic gold and has only just gone pro.
Moz s list shows what a poor state the heavyweight division is in. Joshua will take the title within 2 years. He is far better than any of those pretenders.
Wake up Vlagshit
04 Jan 2015, 23:57#9
I was hoping that you have found a cure for your Tourettes. Sorry to notice that it failed. You are missing the point as usual. He has just turned pro but he is already 25, which means that by your benchmark, he is only five years away from the rubbish dump. He does not have time left to dominate the division and emulate the likes of Klitschko.
If we have to go by your benchmark, he will be finished in five years from now. By Moz' benchmark, he will be in his prime at that stage. Get it?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Jan 2015, 02:20#10
If this lad makes it he will probably be 27 or 28, I'm guessing he has to fight his way through the top ten. Point is boxers are mostly chaps in their thirties, denting the strike 30 and you're out theory.
I remember seeing Joshua fight and as I recall he was pretty good. I had actually gone to the Olympic boxing finals on the Saturday....but Joshua fought on the Sunday. It was a very cool scene at the finals, a very boxing smart crowd. There was massive strife after the Chinese fighter was given the nod over a fighter from Thailand in the light Flyweight class.
AJArthur John
Pro1,748 posts
AJArthur JohnPro1,748 posts
05 Jan 2015, 08:29#11
Well their you go....a fixed result in boxing at last.
Most of the chumps in boxing have had more that one fight go their way by some magical scoring from the judges and refs.
Possible that boxing is the most fixed sport there is.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Jan 2015, 10:55#13
Joshua is 25 for goodness sake how much younger does he need to be. At 25 he is better than the other heavy weights out there which is my point. Youth prevails as always in sport.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
05 Jan 2015, 13:36#15
Youth only generally succeeds when it is underpinned by experience. I have never seen that statement contradicted in team sports. It becomes more apparent in individual sports, experience is an enormous factor. You may want to add Alexsandr Karelin to that as well. His record as a senior was the most remarkable in all sports.
05 Jan 2015, 14:09#16
Ahh, they great Alexander Karelin. One of the greatest, if not the greatest Greco-Roman Wrestlers of all times. A monster of a man who was still a European heavy weight champion in the year when he retired at well above thirty. Between the Olympics, the World Championships and the European championships, he only ever won one silver medal, and that was at the 2000 Olympics . The rest were all gold medals.
05 Jan 2015, 15:08#18
Lestat, even though I have great respect for Karelin, I am not a massive Greco-Roman style fan. I hated officiating it and I preferred freestyle wrestling. I have watched the the 2012 Olympics wrestling and I am afraid UWW (or FILA as they were known when I was involved) have shot themselves in the foot with the rule changes. They only have themselves to blame for wrestling loosing it s Olympic status and it is a shame because wrestling was one of the original Olympic disciplines.
AGAgPleezDeddy
Club Pro900 posts
AGAgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
05 Jan 2015, 19:50#19
I don't think people should ever be picked or dropped just because of their age, it should always be on merit.
Some of the best rugby players right now are older (McCaw, O'Connell) and some of the best are also young (Etzebeth, Retallick)
A good mixture is always helpful and a method to the selections.

sharkbok
Captain23,286 posts

sharkbokCaptain23,286 posts
05 Jan 2015, 19:59#20
Youth brings pace, while age brings experience. The first thing that goes is speed.
In terms of strength, I would expect people in their thirties to be stronger than in their twenties. However this may not be the case with professional athletes that spend most of their time in the gym.
Also young players can also be experienced. Most of the best test players are allready the best in their position nationally by the time they are 21 years old, so by the time they are 24 they can allready have 50 test caps. (their body will however get older quicker due to wear and tear of the game).
Christian Cullen was past his best at the age of 24. Frans Steyn was past his best around the same age.These are great players whos bodies aged quickly due to the demands of non-stop rugby.
I would not want to choose someone just because they are young, in the hope that they improve.
If they are going to take the starting position they must outperform the incumbent in their position.
GEgeneraltit
Pro3,164 posts
05 Jan 2015, 20:30#21
Boxing is a sport that is even more contraversal than any sport...as a youngster I used to box at school, I loved it and could handle myself even against bigger opponents...a very good sport if it's clean.
There have been so many outstanding boxers...too many and nobody has authority to judge this because unlike rugby, cricket soccer and even golf and tennis we tend to go for at stats that were revelent in those days and every one of us makes judgements on those stats, hearsay and opinions.
The best technical heavy weight was Cassius Clay (Mohammed Ali) without any doubt...the best heavy boxers who very fighters were Rocky Marciano and Klitscho bros...Mike Tyson and Holyfield can challenge this and I won't disagree. The best middle man was Sugar Ray or
Marvin Hagler and best fighter was Roberta Duran.
I won't go through all the divisions but the best lightest of divisions, fly weight was our own late Baby Jake who sadly died 1 and a half years ago.
I must admit I will get a host of criticism on this issue but this is just on gut feel. Such contraversies you'll never prove.
Anyway an interesting post..thanks Moz...one thing for sure Sonny Bill must stick to rugby...any one of the Klitscho boeties no only would have sent him back to NZ free of flight charge but made his wife a widow (if he;s married)...lolz
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Jan 2015, 21:21#22
The best fights I saw were Hearns/ Leonard......Holyfield/ Bowe1.....Frazier/Ali1....Leonard/ Duran....Ali/Shavers
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Jan 2015, 22:52#23
There are exceptions like golf where youth does not prevail.. ....but in rugby it does.
AGAgPleezDeddy
Club Pro900 posts
AGAgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
05 Jan 2015, 22:52#24
Boxing is a great sport, the commitment of the elite fighters is awesome. I hope Pacman and Mayweather do fight as if they don't the integrity of boxing will be questioned. Can you imagine if in tennis Federer or Nadal never fought, or in Rugby the Boks didn't play the ABs, or in athletics Bolt didn't face Gay.
AGAgPleezDeddy
Club Pro900 posts
AGAgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
05 Jan 2015, 22:53#25
In terms of heavyweights, keep an eye out for GB gold medalist Anthony Joshua, he looks a huge prospect
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Jan 2015, 01:41#26
APD read my comments on this thread
AGAgPleezDeddy
Club Pro900 posts
AGAgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
06 Jan 2015, 02:06#27
Ah yes, apologies Saffex, didn't realise you mentioned him. You're right though, what a talent!
GEgeneraltit
Pro3,164 posts
06 Jan 2015, 02:08#28
Roberto Duran...boxed in 4 weight divisions...lightweight,welter,middle and super middle...a great fighter...tough with a killer instinct...a kind and humble person outside the ring...good father to his kids...sadly his career ended with a car accident.
He and Muhammed Ali were my favourites ever...you just don't get them like this anymore
http://youtu.be/ONaf21DxrFA
GEgeneraltit
Pro3,164 posts
06 Jan 2015, 02:15#29
Roberto...a true warrior and the greatest fighter ever...light weight, welter, middle and super middle...a kind and humble man off stage
http://youtu.be/O0g8-KVp06s
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Jan 2015, 07:12#30
There are some individual sporting codes where age is not a real factor - but in general in team sports of a contact nature age is really a major issue. Mozart is shopping around for cases where there are sporting codes where older players make a serious impact in the world environment and he thus far came up with -
* the Worlds strongest man;* the top surfer in the world; and* the age of boxers being over 30 years of age.
This being a rugby board - his objective is obviously to prove that since in othr codes of sports older participants do well - the same applies to rugby as a team sport.
His argument is seriously flawed - since he uses individual sport codes and try to state that it applies to a team sport as well. His constant support of over 30 players in rugby is in his view justified by the findings in respect of other sporting codes.
The poroblem with rugby is that the continuation on high performance level by rugby players over the age of 30 is seriously questionable. In this regard -
* Jean de Villiers statd that at the age of 31 he had to train twice as hard to sustain the performance level he showed two years before - and over the last year there was a drastic decline in his performances despite his much more strenuous training schedule; and
* Bakkies Botha himself in his notice of retirement from international rugby stated that he cannot compete with the younger and stronger locks.
Unfortunately some players like Matfield stays around - and the fact is he is not the shadow of the player he once was six years ago and his continuation is showing a serious negative impact on the performance of the Springbok forward pack.
In Mozart's book at least 9 of the 15 players in the Springbok team would be older than 30 years - ie Habana, Jean du Plessis, Morne Steyn,, Fourie du Preez, Willem Alberts, Schalk Burger, Victor Matfield, Jannie du Plessis, Bismarck du Plessis, Bakkies Botha and Jacque du Plessis (he latter two ruled themselves out of selection). For him performance by the over 30 years of age players concerned is not an issue - their reputation is enough to merit their selection. Most of the above-mentioned players have been seriously defective this year - a fact he refuses to recognize. Excuses are constantly found for the poor eprformances of the players concerned - mainly by blaming other players for the deficiencies shown by his favourites.
Basically the age items on other sporting codes is a waste of space on this site -since it does not prove anything about participation in rugby by over 30 players he supports.
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
06 Jan 2015, 10:20#31
Pfffft . . . boxers tend to peak in their 30s so therefore rugby players peak in their 30s?
LMAO!
Ou Maaik, I'm not sure if Moffie knows less about boxing or rugby but you should ask him if the average age of an Olympic lawn bowls team supports his stupid theory . . . and if the age of medal-winning women gymnasts blows it out the water. What an idiot! Have fun!
DEDenny
Captain12,893 posts
06 Jan 2015, 12:32#32
Say guys, I note names being bandied about eg Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard, Hagler etc but no mention of Sugar Ray Robinson who in my not so humble opinion was the greatest fighter ever. ...no?
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
06 Jan 2015, 15:17#33
The big issue with our rugby players is recovery. Over thirty your recovery is hit the hardest. To be quite honest with you, even our younger players are struggling as our calendar year becomes so ridiculously over-loaded, to the point where tests and rivalries have lost any significance. It's just too much. When you reach the point where incoming tours are sandwiched between Super rugby... well, there's a big problem. Aside from that, there is no issue.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
06 Jan 2015, 16:20#35
It took Germany numerous attempts, they had a lot of experience going into this years World Cup. That cannot point cannot be separated from the issue. It boggles the mind that this is even debated. Particularly when Meyer has given so many newcomers a chance to cut their teeth at test rugby!
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Jan 2015, 22:54#36
Warriors are what we need, not boys.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Jan 2015, 00:40#37
Mozart
The team you support for selection does not have an average age of 27-28,5 - the average age is 30 years this year = with only two youngish players in Pollard, Le Roux and Etzebeth.
The rest will virtually all n 2015 have reached the age of 30 some by a very substantial margin.
So who of the three over 30 players from the long list of over -30's you support.
Remember by 2015 WC - the following players will all be 30 or above:-
That list includes Bryan Habana, Jean de Villiers, Fourie du Preez, Duane Vermeulen, Willem Alberts, Francois Louw, Victor Matfield, Jannie du Plessis, Bismarck du Plessis, Adriaan strauss, Tendai Mtawarire.
My choice would be Bryan Habana, Duane Vermeulen and Francois Louw - so whicjh three will yours be?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Jan 2015, 01:40#38
No I think I'll be at about 28.2....a bit older than the norm because the youngsters havent stepped up this time.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Jan 2015, 02:01#39
Mozart
Are you simple-minded? How the hell would that team average age get to 28,2 if 10 of the players will be over the age of 30 - with only three players below the age of 28.
But that is not the issue. What you wrote is the following:-
"The best age for a RWC team is above 27 and below 28.5. Which means there will probably be at least 3 players starting....in their thirties. "
What you meant by at least 3 players - is in fact 10 players in their 30's you support? What a slow-thinking twerp you are- why don't you state the real situation you are propagating?
Secondly - your biased assessment of players is so far off the mark that I am not surpsied at your audacity to state -
No I think I'll be at about 28.2....a bit older than the norm because the youngsters havent stepped up this time."
What about the older players not performing anymore? For you performance criteria only applies to younger players - it has no bearing on older players at all, thy can bugger up completely and you will find excuses for them.
.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Jan 2015, 03:02#40
Don't be daft OOm, you can't possibly calculate an average....hell I'm not sure you can add.