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FORUM / RUGBY /  Oregan Hoskins: Irked by inconsistent citings

Oregan Hoskins: Irked by inconsistent citings

Started by sharkbok21 REPLIES1,103 VIEWS· 12 Apr 2015, 18:08
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sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,285 posts
12 Apr 2015, 18:08
#1
12 Apr 2015, 18:08#1
Hoskins irked by inconsistencies2015-04-12 16:03POST A COMMENTSHARE THISOregan Hoskins (Gallo)RELATED LINKS
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  • Dan Retief, City Press

    Cape Town - SARU president Oregan Hoskins has spoken out strongly against the inconsistency of recent rulings at disciplinary tribunals.

    Hoskins is incensed by what he believes to be the unfair handling of cases involving South African players compared with their New ­Zealand and Australian counterparts.

    He referred to the recent harsh bans handed to Bismarck du Plessis (four weeks), Frans Steyn (five weeks) and Jean Deysel (seven weeks) – while similar offences by Kiwi and Aussie players received more lenient treatment.

    "I didn’t intend to go to the media on this," Hoskins told City Press.

    "But frankly, I’ve just had enough.

    "I feel we, as administrators, are fighting one fight and do not have the support of our judicial and refereeing panels.

    "To be absolutely honest with you, I am at my wits end, because I am seeing how we are being torn apart on the field of play and by judicial decisions – and we are not getting the support we should be getting from these people, who are part of our organisation."

    Hoskins, generally known for his low-key approach, forcefully denounced some of the rulings that have been passed on local players.

    "I was at Kings Park [when the Sharks played the Crusaders].

    "Take nothing away from the Crusaders, they deserved their win, but I was on the centre line watching the dangerous high tackles and shoulder charges.

    "The first one, on SP Marais, almost took his head off and the next, on Odwa Ndungane, went totally unpunished.

    "Then the third one, on Deysel, almost took his neck off.

    "They just continued to dish out yellow cards, because that’s the instruction they’re given. [The Crusaders had three players yellow-carded within minutes of each other.]

    "Deysel did a stupid thing, obviously, by retaliating with a knee on the guy’s head, although it wasn’t an injurious type of thing.

    "But still, it is not allowed, and he got a red card and a heavy suspension – while the others were not even cited.

    "There was also an incident in the previous game [between the Sharks and Chiefs] when Du Plessis and Steyn were sent off, when a Chiefs player dangerously kneed Cobus Reinach in the back – he wasn’t even cited."

    Hoskins said he had called a meeting with key figures in judicial and disciplinary structures, where he intended to make his dissatisfaction known.

    These figures included Justice Lex Mpati, head of both SARU and SA, New Zealand and Australian Rugby (SANZAR) judicial committees, head of referees André Watson and citing commissioner Freek Burger.

    "I’m so incensed, absolutely frustrated, and the public is outraged.

    "I was a judicial officer; I was a citing commissioner, I know the drill.

    "I studied the laws; wrote the exams; it’s not like I’m standing in judgement as a layman," added an angry Hoskins.

    One of the key questions he wanted answers to was the inconsistency in SANZAR disciplinary rulings.

    "Steyn’s situation was handled by an experienced citing administrator, who felt there were grounds for leniency, because another player was involved in the [tip] tackle.

    "Then there’s an appeal by SANZAR CEO Greg Peters – of his own volition – and the banning is escalated to five weeks.

    "How can that be? And if that is the right way to go, why are there no other citings and appeals when it appears the match officials and judicial officers have erred?”

    Hoskins said he was acutely aware there were "massive concerns among our supporters that our players are more harshly treated” and he had sympathy with this view.

    "I am putting my foot down, and I want answers," he added.

    He highlighted that he was also unhappy with the lack of discipline in local rugby, with "senior players overstepping the mark", but would take that up with each of the provincial teams.

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,285 posts
12 Apr 2015, 18:10
#2
12 Apr 2015, 18:10#2
This needs to be sorted out as it is turning the tournament into a sham. 
A south African player could get a 6 week ban, and a New Zealand player could get off Scot Free like Messam. The only thing that is consistent is that SA players get longer sentences than New Zealand players. Australian players just seem to be less involved in foul play. 
Part of the New Zealand teams game plan is to give away yellow cards, especially when in the red zone. 
All their players have exemplary records because they never get convicted. Then the next time their is a citing, their impeccable record is again taken into account and they are let off. 
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
12 Apr 2015, 18:37
#3
12 Apr 2015, 18:37#3
Well at long, long last. Hoskins leaps up in my estimation. I simply cannot understand though why it has taken all these years since readmission for the penny to drop that we are being crooked out big time by bent down under refs and commisions.Hoskins now must takee up the fight re bent refs as well. Lets hope this is the begining of the end of the get the Jarpy agenda.
We will no doubt have a lot of squealing from ou rooitwit who would never have the backbone to fight for our players getting a fair deal especially when playing his favourite kiwi sides.
Lots off egg lands on the kiwi denialsits as well headed by ou JW the ignoble! Hahahhahahahahaha
Beeno has been calling it like it is for some years now and at last SARU is becoming incensed by the level of crooking going on. ABOUT TIME.
But please kbbs dont come  with your usually silly denials . We Saffas are tired of losing games to inferior down under sides due to bent refs. Look no further than the Stormers/Hurricanes match.
Go for them Hoskins these bent down under types are polluting the game with their malevolent activities. Well said Beeno 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
12 Apr 2015, 18:57
#4
12 Apr 2015, 18:57#4
One has also to say it has been pretty pathetic how some here have laid into Bissie and Frans.
Bissie had seen elliot put elbow to face and seen Elliot shoulder charge the prone Beasts kneck twice. Then the leecher had tackled him without the ball and then held onto him.(These dimwits even complain how Bissie retaliated when wee victor tackled him without the ball. No complaints about that foul sportmanship of victor' s of course. how warped can one get!!)
They take no account of this at all. No account of who started it and no account of the number of offences committed by the chiefs and old crusts and dont even have much to say about the leniency meted out to the kiwis as per usual.
I am not suggesting these oaks are as bad as the turngoat rooitwit but their performances on this matter were very poor to say the least.
Well said Beeno 
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
12 Apr 2015, 19:04
#5
12 Apr 2015, 19:04#5
 sbbs should realize that Kiwis also have problems with the system
Link
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
12 Apr 2015, 19:09
#6
12 Apr 2015, 19:09#6
 I expect the kiws think they should never get carded or banned.Bwahahahahahahaha - the kiwis have very little to complain about but if an incident does happen they make the very most of it in an effort to show everyone they too are hard done by. However twenty wrong against the Boks and one against the wee abs is not equivalent treatment.Hahahahahahahahaha such an old slight of hand by JW !
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
12 Apr 2015, 19:27
#7
12 Apr 2015, 19:27#7
Many feel the system is not consistent Beeno, it doesn't mean we have to see it as a global conspiracy against one nation. 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
12 Apr 2015, 19:44
#8
12 Apr 2015, 19:44#8
The conspiracy is between OZ and NZ to get the Jarpies. WE GET TWICE AS MANY YELLOWS IN TEST AGAINST THE WEE ABS.Again and again we get the short end. Many tests and super 15 matches have been lost beciase of bent refs.
Further there was that letter written by Bryce Lawrence father re get the Jarpys. FACT.
Nope I am hoping Hoskins gets stuck in big time. I am delighted that he is incensed and wonder if they have got all the stats re reffing etc. Bust this thing wide open.
He should go public if he gets any thick skinned down under type resistant to change.
Go Hoskins pull the rotten facade down.





CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Apr 2015, 20:19
#9
12 Apr 2015, 20:19#9
I think that it is time that the issue of sentencing should be made more synchronized to ensure that the same sentences are given for specific incidents of contraventions and good prior conduct is not a redeeming factor.  If a person has never murdered a person before and then commit murder does he get a reduced sentence based on good conduct in the past or if he is a first-time thief is good conduct in the past taken into account?  I think not.   A player in contravention can plead leniency on this basis - but that is where I think a judicial officer can reduce the prescribed sentence by one week.   
It a sentence is for 4 weeks bye weekends should not be taken into account - the meaning should be a bye is  not counted, and should not be regarded as being part of the banning period.   The ban should be for four franchise matches - not three as some franchises now made it out to be on the pretext that their player have played a club match in the weekend where the has a bye.
The other issue that is reaching boiling point is the incompetence of some referees and their serious mistakes during matches to the extent that it even leads to teams benefitting from refereeing errors winning matches.   It is high time that this matter should be addressed more openly and measures taken against continuous mistakes by the referee(s) concerned.   The public should at least be informed what measures are being taken to avoid continuation of the same mistakes by the same referees.          
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Apr 2015, 07:51
#10
13 Apr 2015, 07:51#10
 I thought about this issue again.  I do not think it would be wise for the Management of Southern Hemisphere to ignore what Hoskins is saying here.   If they do - the results could be counter-productive and drive SA to rather change to competitions in Europe - which would mean a major loss of revenue to all SH unions.  
So I do expect some reaction from the Australian and New Zealand Rugby Boards to smooth matters over and I do think there would be a co-ordinated action to get uniformity in place.  
The next issue Hoskins should take on is the competence of the referees involved in Super 15 and the need to deal constructively with continuous mistakes by the same incompetent officials.  
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
13 Apr 2015, 10:08
#11
13 Apr 2015, 10:08#11

 ...not so clever mike...in a RWC year it might be in SA interests not to draw attention to the fact that they currently have teams with players guilty and currently serving long suspensions for : the kicking of players in the head, the kneeing of players in the head and the dropping of players on their heads in spear tackles....not a good look mate

...because with all respect, it makes SA look like an extremely dirty bunch of Neanderthals that have no discipline or self control...lets leave that title for the French shall we...

..drawing attention/complaining about these perceived injustices just makes you look like you think yr actually somewhat arrogantly entitled to act out this kind of dangerous behaviour and with complete impunity...

..and warming up to the RWC, RWC refs could be using these recent examples of dirty play by these dopey serial offending SA players as a case study of stereotypical dirty players to watch out for...rightly or wrongly perpetuating a stereotype of SA players in general as being dirty players in the back of their minds while they're officiating...might be a bit too late to worry about that though..

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Apr 2015, 10:31
#12
13 Apr 2015, 10:31#12
Brycy
Sorry but you are missing the point here completely.  Nobody condones  dirty play and the problem of such play is not confined to any one country.  The pointing of fingers at SA players will serve no purpose.   
The issue here is that there is no uniformity on the issue of sanction against dirty play.  When a Blues player hits Vermeulen in the face twice with his fist and he gets a one week ban and in the same week a Highlanders player did exactly the same and gets a five week ban - there is something seriously amiss in the sanctioning.   In the same week a Crusader player got a three week suspension for the same offence.   It is not a boxing rink -  all three players should have got the same sanction.  All three sentences should have been the same - not on a differentiated basis as it appears to be at present.
I think what made Hoskins mad is that Messam deliberately kneed Reinach in the back while he was flat on the grass in a maul - a very dangerous play as well.    Messam gets cited and suddenly it is not unacceptable play and he gets off completely.   It happened in the same game - Du Plessis gets cited and ends up rightfully so with a 5 week suspension.  I would have even said that was lenient.   Messam did something as dangerous - gets cited and walked away with no sanction whatsoever.
I think there should be a uniformity of sanctions - not an abuse of the system to penalize some different from others.         
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
13 Apr 2015, 11:03
#13
13 Apr 2015, 11:03#13

 ...not so clever mike...did I mention having so many red carded players suspended at the same time makes SA players look like a very dirty bunch of Neanderthals ??... the Sharkies coach joking about the situation not helping much either....the truth of the matter is no body really cares about any perceived inconsistencies in rulings...kapesh?

...and any attempts to deflect the attention away from the serial offenders ie SA , will fail and fall on deaf ears... whoever this Hoskin character is, never heard of him but just wasting his breath and time on a lost cause...

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
13 Apr 2015, 11:21
#14
13 Apr 2015, 11:21#14
Hey Brycy, tell me, did you enjoy the French forward pass that knocked you out of the 2007 WC? Just wondering? Because reffing mistakes obviously don't bother you?  
I am also very glad that no NZ'ers have been involved in any dirty play this year so far....wait, nevermind!


CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Apr 2015, 11:53
#15
13 Apr 2015, 11:53#15
 So Brycy. SA can be held ransom because it is RWC year. Correct?
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
13 Apr 2015, 13:00
#16
13 Apr 2015, 13:00#16

...just trying to say only drawing further attention to yrselves could be counterproductive given the shameful history of the red carded players, it's futile trying to play the victim here.... so better to just keep yr mouth shut..you have Peyper and Joubert to do yr handiwork at the RWC anyway so I'm sure they're under instruction to  do their darndest to deliver redress for any perceived injustices...

MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
13 Apr 2015, 13:10
#17
13 Apr 2015, 13:10#17
 Mike, get your facts straight. Reinach was accidentally kneed in the back not by Messam but one of the Chiefs backs who was trying to retrieve the ball from Reinach who had dived on it. Don't know where you got the maul idea from.The ref conferred with the TMO after that incident and both agreed there was nothing in it.Reinach of course rolled around the ground like a big girlie soccer player milking it for all it was worth but the ref didn't fall for it so tough removed!Suck it up boys and stop bleating. You're sounding like Pommie whingers more and more ever y day!!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Apr 2015, 13:28
#18
13 Apr 2015, 13:28#18
 Look - Messam got sited for doing what he did when he tried to throttle a player and got away with it.  Thereafter he tried to cripple Reinach by kneeing him in the back.  There  are no girly stuff in the local players and the biggest actors in the game are always the soft AB players who played dirty and then try to get a response to get opposition players sited - because they are not manful enough to face a full team of players.
Lets face facts there are no angels on either side in rugby - the problem is there seems to be one set of rules for AB players and another set of rules for other players.   
I do not object when SA players get carded for illegal and dirty play - I want them punished properly and even getting heavier sentences than they got.   However, it seems as if it is OK for NZ players to contravene and then all kinds of excuses are found for them by NZ supporters.    That is a bad and irresponsible way of looking at things and should not be countenanced - especially by their own supporters.          
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,285 posts
13 Apr 2015, 14:03
#19
13 Apr 2015, 14:03#19
If 10 lawyers were randomly taken from all over the world, to form an independent tribunal to assess the SANZAR citing proces, it would not take long for them to determine that their is corruption. It could even just be a mental block of us and them creating sub-conscious bias.
They would just look at the precedent which has been applied for the most frequent offences to determine consistency. 


1. They would see that the punishments are not applied consistently at all (therefore precedent is not being used).
2. They would see that any All Black player either gets no punishment, or much less than what a player from South Africa does. (When the offence is the same). 
Or they are charged with something else, so that they can be found innocent. Think about Messam's choke hold of a player on the ground. The commentators saw this during the game, but Sanzar could not even see it in slow motion. 
3. Corruption could be the only explanation.
Why does Sanzar not have their headquarters in South Africa seeing as we fund the SuperXV
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Apr 2015, 17:06
#20
13 Apr 2015, 17:06#20
Referees are like judges, they mete out the law in an active setting. It's a tough job, but seemingly done in a vacuum. Who do these guys respond to, certainly not SARU it seems as Hoskins gets the passive/ aggressive treatment.
The thing that brought this to a head was the Frans debacle. It wasn't just the length of the ban, it was the lengths SanZar was willing to go to in this case. With a refs debated call reversed, they went to unusual lengths to back up their man, in a situation where there clearly were dissenting views.

These refs have assumed far too great a role in the game. The active coaching, debates with players, petulance when crossed have all been increasing in recent years.
And one more thought, the legal branch often effectively legislates by interpreting laws. These refs are making a mess of the old rugby rules with their inconsistent interpretations.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Apr 2015, 21:37
#21
13 Apr 2015, 21:37#21
 Wrong the refs are consistently favouring the kiwis and Oz against us.  Its sooooo obvious!
MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
13 Apr 2015, 21:48
#22
13 Apr 2015, 21:48#22
 Mike, front with the exact time in the match Messam kneed Reinach in the back..............didn't think you could. Another example of your fairy tale existence.
— END OF THREAD —

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