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FORUM / RUGBY /  Plisson win game for France

Plisson win game for France

Started by clevermike53 REPLIES649 VIEWS· 06 Feb 2016, 18:34
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CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
09 Feb 2016, 14:07
#41
09 Feb 2016, 14:07#41
Yep. The usual ducking and diving. Let me repeat what I have said. When I mentioned that Goosen could end playing fullback for RM, you had a fit. Even when I pointed that he is listed, on the RM website and on Wikipedia, at fullback. 
Wikipedia:
Dan CarterFly-half New ZealandBenjamin DambielleFly-half FranceMaxime JavauxFly-half FranceRémi TalèsFly-half FranceBrice DulinFullback FranceJohan GoosenFullback South AfricaSean RobinsonFullback South AfricaRacing Metro website:
Squad

This is  what happened so far this season:
Top14:
Round 1 FH Start Subbed by Dambielle after 62' Round 2 DNP Round 3 DNP Round 4 DNP Round 5 FB Start Subbed by Louis Dupichot after 67' Round 6 FB Start Round 7 DNP Round 8 FH Start Subbed by Dambielle after 60' Round 9 FB Start Round 10 DNP Start Round 11 FB Start Round 12 Bench Was not used
Champions Cup:
Round 1 FB Start Round 2 FB Start Round 3  FH Bench Replaced DC at FH after 61' Round 4 Bench Was not used Round 5 Bench Replaced Brice Dulin at FB after 63' Round 6 DNP
There you have it. In summary:
DNP (Did not play) - 6 TimesBenched but not used - TwiceStarted at FB - 6 TimesStarted at FH - TwiceStarting from the bench and used during the game - TwiceFull games when starting at fullback - 5 TimesFull games when starting at flyhalf - Zero. He was replaced at around 60 minutes, every single time that he started at flyhalf.
You are correct when you say that he can play both fullback and flyhalf but that is what I have been saying all along and you kakked yourself every time. There is a slight difference, though. I have always seen him as a fullback that can play flyhalf.
Twice the flyhalf MS ever was or would  be.....? In your dreams, mate. Then again, that is both your and my opinions. Fact is that, at this rate, he will probably never be in a position to exceed what MS has achieved. 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Feb 2016, 17:25
#42
09 Feb 2016, 17:25#42
 The future of Springbok rugby, a great in the making.......hahaha, more hype
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Feb 2016, 17:34
#43
09 Feb 2016, 17:34#43
 The recent past of Springbok Rugby was a disgrace - the future cannot be worse than the 2014 and 2015 seasons were.  
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
09 Feb 2016, 19:31
#44
09 Feb 2016, 19:31#44
So what is the verdict on Goosen, I wonder. SA's version of Dan Carter or just another average, at best, utility FH/FB?
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
09 Feb 2016, 20:14
#45
09 Feb 2016, 20:14#45
 Cera, as I have illustrated before, his French coach has non rugby issues with him. Back in SA he was one of the best FH's, but prone to injury. He is wasting his career in France and should get back to SA. He is clearly better than some of the 1st choice 10's that will be playing SR this year. Better than Carter, no. Better than Jantjies and a load of other SA 10's? You betcha!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Feb 2016, 20:15
#46
09 Feb 2016, 20:15#46
 The verdict is that he is a good player 10 times better as a flyhalf than Morne Steyn - the dullest and most predictable flyhalf that ever represented SA.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
09 Feb 2016, 20:31
#47
09 Feb 2016, 20:31#47
 No Mike, Morne has quite a record, boring as it might seem to you. Goosen has a lot to prove before he can be named in the same company. Having said that, he needs to get opportunities to prove himself and he ain't getting it in France. He must come home.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Feb 2016, 21:23
#48
09 Feb 2016, 21:23#48
 'Prove himself' .....what, not just anoint him on day one? There you have the biggest difference with NZ rugby.....they have  scores of great young players. They have to fight, improve themselves, show they can contribute in tough games......before they get a shot. So when they make the team they fit in seamlessly and generally succeed.

We have charnel house full of Goosens 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
09 Feb 2016, 21:33
#49
09 Feb 2016, 21:33#49
 @Draad. His French coach' so-called non-rugby issues were what was reported by "his" kicking coach or something, i.e. someone aligned with Goosen. What the French coach said was that he was not dedicated on-field and  in training and he mentioned  the "off-field" French lessons as well. This was the report in Rugbyrama, which was quoted in  the SA Media:

Après une première partie de saison prometteuse avec le Racing, Johan Goosen a peu à peu disparu des radars depuis 2015. La raison ? Le comportement du Sud-Africain a visiblement beaucoup déçu son entraîneurLaurent Labit: "On a eu des discussions avec lui et il sait pourquoi il n'a pas été sur les feuilles de matchs en deuxième partie de saison. Ce sont des raisons sportives et extra-sportives."

"On attend plus de sérieux de la part d'un joueur de son âge", poursuit l'entraîneur. "On lui a laissé le temps de s'intégrer les six premiers mois car il est jeune, mais il y a des choses qu'un professionnel doit faire et assumer. Il doit se mettre sur les bons rails s'il veut jouer. Il a encore deux ans de contrat avec nous. Il sait qu'il doit rectifier le tir, sinon il y a de grandes chances qu'il ne soit plus là la troisième année". Le coach francilien lui reproche notamment d'avoir séché les cours de français lors des cinq derniers mois et de ne pas avoir respecté certaines de ses exigences à l'entraînement.





















Translation:
After a promising first part of the season with Racing, Johan Goosen has gradually disappeared from radar since 2015. The reason? The behavior of the South African was obviously very disappointed coach Laurent Labit: "We had discussions with him and he knows why he was not on the leaves of games in the second half of the season These are sporting reasons and. non-sporting. ""More serious is expected from a player of his age," says the coach. "We have given him time to integrate the first six months because he is young, but there are things that a professional should do and take. He must get back on track if he wants to play. He still has two years of contract with us. he knows he has to change course, otherwise there's a good chance he will not be there in the third year. " The Paris coach notably accused of having dried French courses during the last five months and not having met some of its demands for training.
I don't know if I agree with you that he should go back right now. IMO he should stay put and put up a fight to cement his spot in the team. If he goes back to SA now, he would probably walk into any side at 10, based  on  his reputation built on the hype around him before he left for France. That would put him back in a comfort zone where he can basically sit back and relax because that is the SA way. They do not drop blue eyed boys who do not perform. That happens all over SA. Yes, even at the Bulls. 
He has the opportunity to (a) play in Dan Carter's shadow, should he be determined to be a FH, where he can learn from him and (b) use all the opportunities thrown towards him at FB to decide whether he is happy at FB. The European competitions are tough and challenging, despite what some arm chair experts like  to believe. 
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
09 Feb 2016, 21:46
#50
09 Feb 2016, 21:46#50
 Vlag, we had this argument before. The fact that the coach went and washed dirty laundry in the papers/press is clear enough indication to me that all wasn't as was reported. Add the verifiable misrepresentation and it is clear that it was a clash of personalities. No hard evidence, but people have been convicted of crimes on less circumstantial evidence. Goosen is not as kak as what you would like us believe.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
09 Feb 2016, 23:15
#51
09 Feb 2016, 23:15#51
Have I said that he is kak? I have said two things i.e. that he is (1) not as great as many like to believe and (2) IMO probably a better FB than a FH. In fact, I have said that he had a great game at FB after his first full game at 15 in  this season's Top14. I have said the same after his first full game at 15 in the previous season.
As far as the coach is concerned, it is clear that he replied to a question by a reporter. Anybody should get that from that article. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Feb 2016, 23:24
#52
09 Feb 2016, 23:24#52
 That article was quoted by Ceradunce before and it was clear that the problem they had was Goosen slow progress in learning to speak French.   The real issue that Ceradunce refuse to mention is that Racing insisted that Goosen stay for his full contract with them and would not release him from his contract when the Stormers tried to rope him in.  If he was as useless as the dunce made him out to be why the refusal to release him.   
He is completing his contract period with them in August and I suspect he wants to come back to play for the Stormers/WP then.        
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
10 Feb 2016, 00:44
#53
10 Feb 2016, 00:44#53
Ag jou stupid moer. If you read the News24 and Supersport articles, you would see that they all quote the Rugbyrama article. That was the one that sparked the whole Goosen/French lessons fiasco. In the article, the French coach clearly said that he has issues on-field  and off-field. Try reading it again or  ask  someone to explain it to you.
Once again, I have not said that he was useless. I have always said that he has shortcomings at flyhalf.
Racing Metro has never insisted that he stay with them and it is clear that they had discussions with him and told him that the ball was in his court and that it was up to him whether he would see out his contract or not. Let me repeat a few important lines from that article. Hopefully it would sink in this time.
"We had discussions with him and he knows why he was not on the leaves of games in the second half of the season These are sporting reasons and. non-sporting. "

That, to me, indicates that they have communicated with him and explained to him why he was missing out on game time. Read this again:
"He must get back on track if he wants to play"

That, to me is an indication that he was told that he needs to sort himself out if he wants to play. It does not look like they were not prepared to release him.
"He still has two years of contract with us. he knows he has to change course, otherwise there's a good chance he will not be there in the third year."
That looks a lot like them saying to him: "You better get yourself in gear or you will be out of here before the end of your contract". To me, that looks like they have not blocked him from  leaving. Unless I have missed something, they were clearly prepared to release him prematurely if he did not pull his finger out of his arse.
I have said in 2014 that I think that he should play at FB. The fact that he is primarily used at 15 this season indicates that RM also now see him as a FB. 

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
10 Feb 2016, 09:36
#54
10 Feb 2016, 09:36#54
 Vakatawa won it...Fijian talent...the Les Bleus are emotitional players ...rise to the occasion and play their best rugby with positive scoring... the mark of French rugby is attractive try scoring...tries lift them...in some ways they and the All Blacks play rugby the way it was meant to...the only difference is that the NZ'ers are more consistent...the Latin flair hopefully will come back to rugby...the crash and bash rugby of England and SA must die...dash and flash must take the edge...the 10 man rugby must go..Latin countries will set the standards of more enterprising and attractive sport...I foresee Argentine rugby progressing...NZ will too always be there...simply because of their spin off of island players. Sevens becoming Olympic will evolve a change in world rugby ...make it more spectator exciting and replace the crash and bash rugby of old.

I believe you will see gradual improvement in rugby in countries like Italy.Romania and Georgia and certainly in Asia...Japan has been improving...unfortunately it will take probably more time but the world rugby hierachy will change...Sevens will erode, Union,League,Oz Rules,and maybe Grid Iron...won't be in my life time but world stage will be where this type of game will be drawn to...anyway that's my opinion.  
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